Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Should I do this?
[00:00:00] Speaker B: It's risky. Like, it's a very brave show. Yeah.
[00:00:03] Speaker A: That's where I was like, is this going to look bad? Is this going to affect, like, me teaching kids? Because it is. So. And then I looked at who was attached to it, like, Nathan Lane, and I was like, if a legend like Nathan Lane can agree to this, plus the other dancers like, yes. How can I say no to something like this?
[00:00:19] Speaker B: And then if Nathan Lane says yes, I also say yes. That's going to be my new guiding principle.
Hello. Hello, my friend. I'm Dana. I'm here with Wrist Roll the dog, AKA Riz. And we are thrilled for this episode. Today, I am joined by Eric Cavanaugh. You know him from Instagram, you know him from giant Apple billboards. You definitely know him from the hashtag dancers come in all sizes. And our conversation is all kinds of so. Right. Inspiring, thought provoking. And I definitely learned a lot about Eric's experience as a young dancer and about where he is headed. And I'm so excited to share. But first, we're gonna do some wins today. There's a team win. Team words that move Me, AKA Riley and Dana learned how to make a TikTok yesterday, and we shot it for 45 minutes. Cause I'm a captain millennial who. Who pauses every time I hit the go button before I start talking. And that's, as Riley pointed out, super awkward. But let's be honest, for a younger person, you're like, not the professional Tiktoker. I'm not trying to call you out, but, like, you had to Google how to do that thing. I make videos in TikTok. We make videos in TikTok. Now that is a thing that we can do. And if we can't, we'll figure out how and practice for an extended period of time. We should have made a TikTok of us making that TikTok. It was so ridiculous. Probably not 45 minutes, but to make a 30 second video took an hour.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Oh, God.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: Anyways, we did it and now we know how. And that's my win. How about you?
Yay.
Congratulations. I'm glad that you're winning and I'm cheering you on. Keep it up. Okay? Speaking of winning, this guest today is a winner. Eric Cavanaugh is such an inspiring person, such a great example of what is possible when you persevere and when you say yes to yourself, even when others say no to you. Please enjoy the one and only Eric Kavanagh.
That was a calypso.
Sorry, I'M excited. Let's go. Eric Kavanaugh on words that move me.
The listener, viewer doesn't know this, but I'm going to tell him right now. This is round two, Eric Kavanaugh, because we had technical difficulties with round one, and I'm going to try my best to not try to duplicate that conversation. Let's start off exactly where we are today and what's going on in your world right now.
[00:03:27] Speaker A: What did we even talk about?
[00:03:28] Speaker B: What did we even talk about? I remember some of them, and I wish that we could.
I know that will flow and we will cover all the bases. But let's start with you. You, who you are, how you like to introduce yourself. Let the listener, viewer, know everything you want us to know about you.
[00:03:45] Speaker A: Hi, my name is Eric Kavanaugh. I am a dancer, choreographer, model, performer, whatever job you need.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: Personal.
[00:03:54] Speaker A: I'll cash the check.
[00:03:56] Speaker B: I will cash the check. Yeah. You are an entrepreneur. I believe I see you as like a super shape shifter. You're also an educator. You're an actor. You are a many hats person. And I love hats.
[00:04:09] Speaker A: I mean, why not? There's so many different shapes of hats. Why not wear all of them?
[00:04:13] Speaker B: I bet you look good in hats. I can see this for you. Actually, I coach a lot of people on this thought that they do too much or have too many interests and it's hard for them to divvy up their time or schedule or. I feel like people can be limited by the thought of being a jack of all trades and a master of none. Do you struggle with this thought? Have you found a way around that way of thinking? Or how does being a hat man serve you?
[00:04:42] Speaker A: Well, because, like, it's tricky because you do have your main passions of what you really are drawn towards. But if opportunity arises to dabble into something else, why not try it? Yeah, that's kind of been my mindset in most everything. Like, if there's an opportunity or an option to just go for it, why say no? Like, I don't want to be like, no, I won't read the lines. I'm a dancer.
[00:05:05] Speaker B: Right. It doesn't seem right.
[00:05:06] Speaker A: I can be stupid and act to, like, enjoy it, you know, maybe I don't do it right. Maybe I don't get the job, but try, you know.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: What was the last thing that you tried that went well?
[00:05:19] Speaker A: Hmm.
I recently, like, I have started trying to do more acting, and I did one for this lottery commercial. And. And I got a callback. I didn't get the job, but I Got a callback, and I was not.
[00:05:34] Speaker B: Dance related at all.
[00:05:35] Speaker A: What's funny is, like, the role, like, the audition was for, like, three different parts. It was three different characters. One of them was a dance one.
[00:05:42] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:05:43] Speaker A: So when I got the call back, I was like, I'm gonna do the dance one. And they're like, nope, we need you to do this one love. And it was like opening up a jean store. And they were like, we just want that. I was like, you know what I mean? You want a 5, 6, 7, 8.
[00:05:54] Speaker B: Don't you want to see my bop? You do have a gorgeous performance.
[00:05:57] Speaker A: Thank you.
I didn't get the job, but getting a callback to act was, like, just a big accomplishment.
[00:06:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that's nice validation. I. Man, I really loved you in Dick's the Musical. I know we talked about this a lot last time. If you have not already seen this film and you are a fan of the Outrageous, the Preposterous and also musicals. I watched it on a plane, which, actually, I don't think was the right choice. There were moments where I wanted to put the blinders up because it's outrageous. I can't even preface to you in what ways, but I did want privacy. Blinders on my screen. And I was also laughing out loud. Could you tell me a standout moment from working on that project? Just an experience that was. Or. Or did you even have an experience that's as wild as the film is?
[00:06:50] Speaker A: I mean, just being asked to do it? So my agent was like, hey, the Kuppen Brothers would like to request you, like, a call with you to talk about doing this as a dancer. And I was like, okay, cool. And they told me a little bit about it, and I was like, yeah, I'll do the movie. Like, it's. Whatever. And they're like, no, no, no. Read this script first.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:07:10] Speaker A: And I was like, it's a movie. Like, I'll do it.
[00:07:14] Speaker B: They're like, the answer is yes.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: They're like, no. Give it a day and read the script. I was like, whatever. And then I read a script. I said, oh, this is different. This is a lot different than I expected.
[00:07:27] Speaker B: Right. Did you get more excited after having read the script?
[00:07:29] Speaker A: I sat with it for a second, and I was like, should I do this?
[00:07:32] Speaker B: It's risky. Like, it's a very brave show. Yeah.
[00:07:35] Speaker A: That's where I was like, is this gonna look bad or is this gonna affect, like, me teaching kids? Because it is, so. And then I looked at who was attached to it, like, Nathan Lane. And I was like, if a legend like Nathan Lane can agree to this, plus the other dancers.
[00:07:48] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:07:49] Speaker A: How can I say no to something like this?
[00:07:51] Speaker B: And then if Nathan Lane says yes, I also say yes. That's going to be my new guiding principle.
[00:07:57] Speaker A: Yeah. So, yeah, it was just. I mean, it was fun. It was wacky, it was crazy. And they didn't really know, like, what was really going to come because we were just having fun and enjoying it because the music is insane, you know. The original working title was Can I Swear?
[00:08:13] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:08:13] Speaker A: Fucking identical twins.
If you look on the poster, it has fit on it because it's two twins that fall in love with each other. So the namesake was.
[00:08:23] Speaker B: Yeah, it's that.
[00:08:24] Speaker A: Because it used to be a UCB sketch comedy in New York.
[00:08:29] Speaker B: I did not know the origin. Okay, okay.
[00:08:31] Speaker A: So that, like, it was fucking identical twins. They did it and then it got picked up, and then they got picked up again. And so then they created it. So you just didn't know what was gonna happen. You didn't know what could happen. It was just like, have fun and enjoy it.
[00:08:44] Speaker B: You signed on, you committed the environment on set. Did it also feel improvisational? Was it a yes and kind of environment or like, what were rehearsals like?
[00:08:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, watching them act, like they would do the script and then they would let them just kind of riff with whoever was there. So even, like, when Megan thee stallion came in to do her scene, it was like, okay. She read her lines and was like, now just like, go take a pat, like a fuck it up pass, and just have fun. And like, that, I think, was the enjoyable thing to watch was no one took themselves serious. Everyone was just, like, playing. Everyone just, like, leaning into the jokes.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: And let me tell you, that reads that transferred across the screen. I was like, yo, this looks so fun. And it looked like you were having a ball. You're a natural actor. And when I see you, I see a real person moving versus a dancer in a scene of a thing. And I've always been drawn to real people, and I think that's why I am drawn to you. You are like a very real person dancing.
And I'm excited to see all the cool things that are happening for you. Last time you were here, we talked a lot about the Apple billboard, which I do think is fucking epic.
Can you talk a little bit about how that came to be?
[00:09:58] Speaker A: The agency reached out to my agency and was like, hey, would Eric be interested in this? And we're like, sure, sure. What is. And they're like, are you interested in the price? Like, it was no details. And we're like, yeah, I guess Apple's.
[00:10:13] Speaker B: Super secretive about this stuff.
[00:10:14] Speaker A: Very secretive.
[00:10:15] Speaker B: So did you. You didn't even know it was an Apple thing?
[00:10:17] Speaker A: Not until I was walking in and they make me sign the NDA. And then they're like, this is for Apple. And I said, cool. Is it like, commercial? And they're like, you'll find out later. And I was like, oh, I get it.
[00:10:30] Speaker B: Info on a need to know basis.
[00:10:31] Speaker A: Copy.
[00:10:32] Speaker B: Moving on to hair and makeup.
[00:10:34] Speaker A: Yeah, we did a photo. Like, it was a bunch of photos and video. So I was like, I wasn't really able to tell what it was. I knew it was a shot on iPhone because they were shooting it on an iPhone.
[00:10:42] Speaker B: Well, it's good to know at least that.
[00:10:45] Speaker A: And then I got another check that was like, out of home advertisement. And I was like, what's this for? They're like, this is for billboards. And I was like, oh, where? I'm like, where do you live? And this is when I was still in L. A. And they're like, okay, the one you can find is going to be down in Beverly Hills. So then there was multiple people a part of this, so I thought it might be a collage of us. So I drive down to Beverly Hills. I'm on the phone with, like, my best friend. I'm like, yeah, I'm just trying to find it. And then I just see it. And I was just like.
And it's just me.
[00:11:16] Speaker B: You.
[00:11:17] Speaker A: And I was like, oh, my God. Yeah, that's. And then I post on Instagram, and I'm like, look at this. Oh, my God. And then I just see people, like, I saw it on my way to work in Boston. I saw it in Atlanta. I saw it in Shibuya, Tokyo. I saw it in New York. And I was like, send me pictures. Yes.
[00:11:32] Speaker B: I'm tearing up. And we'll. We'll link to some of those photos. I'll ask for you to share so that you can see this epic billboard. Could. Can you name that feeling? How did it feel to see yourself like that?
[00:11:42] Speaker A: It didn't feel real. It felt like, you know how a lot of people have, like, kind of like the cgi or where you can put yourself.
[00:11:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: On the billboard.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:11:51] Speaker A: It felt like that because I was like, how is that me? You know, like, the young Eric from Pittsburgh that tried to be a dancer, was told he would never make it all his life, is now doing a firebird in times Square. Yeah. And Shibuya, Tokyo. And it just.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: The biggest cities in the world.
[00:12:10] Speaker A: And I. My brother has a friend who posted it on his Facebook and was like, this was so amazing to see, like, to see myself represented. And this person didn't know that, like, that my brother and I are related.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: Oh, interesting.
[00:12:25] Speaker A: And so my brother was like, that's my brother. But, like, this person was like, I cried walking to work because I can see potential of me in the industry that says we don't exist.
[00:12:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit more about young Eric? And I know that it sounds like it wasn't a particularly supported time for you. I'm not trying to re traumatize you, but were there any outstanding moments, good or bad, that really shaped your life as a young person?
[00:12:53] Speaker A: There was a lot of bad. You know, I had plenty of educators and teachers that told my parents that I would never make it because of my size. I had people say it to my face.
And I don't know how or where it came from, but I persevered. And I do put a lot of it on my ballet teacher, Leslie Anderson Braswell Shout out.
She is a beautiful black woman. And she talked about being a young black black woman doing ballet. Ballet years and years ago. And she was a child. And she was told, you don't do this. You do jazz, tap, hip hop. But she still went on to have a ballet career and dance for, like, the dance city of Harlem as it was starting. And she trained internationally, which is like an unheard of thing. And she was like, it's possible, you know, you may not fit into this mold, but that doesn't mean you can't help reshape it.
[00:13:46] Speaker B: And here you are breaking the mold, my friend, and giving people an example of what is possible in dance and beyond. Like what? Into modeling, into entrepreneurialism, into acting, into all the things. I'm so excited to see where you go. And I know that there's no ceiling. I'm thrilled for you.
[00:14:05] Speaker A: Thank you.
It never feels real, doesn't it?
[00:14:09] Speaker B: Isn't that wild when you, like, do things that you didn't even dream of?
[00:14:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Working with people that I looked up to or people that I followed. And now we're peers on a job.
[00:14:21] Speaker B: Like, tell me about one of those.
[00:14:24] Speaker A: It'd probably be doing this Dolly Parton.
[00:14:28] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Yes.
[00:14:30] Speaker A: Christmas.
[00:14:30] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:14:31] Speaker A: Movie. And I remember watching Alex Wong on so youo Think youk Dance as a kid and looking up to him because he is a phenomenal talent.
[00:14:40] Speaker B: Phenomenal talent. Undeniable undeniable talent.
[00:14:43] Speaker A: And then I think I saw it, like, we got an email with, like, the cast and I saw his name. I was like, we're working on this together. Like, this person that I looked up to, this person that I see leagues above me. We're now on the same job together.
[00:14:58] Speaker B: Well, technically, call. She's not side by side, but. Yeah. You're listed among your heroes as peers on projects.
[00:15:06] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's a. It's. It sometimes feels like daunting because I do struggle with imposter syndrome a lot. Where it can sometimes sit with you, where it's like, yay, I'm so excited to do this. Then you sit back and you're in your hotel room.
[00:15:19] Speaker B: I'm not worried. I'm not worthy.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: Oh, I should not be here. I'm not. I'm not as good as these people. I shouldn't be in this room. I shouldn't be here. I should go home.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: So I do struggle with that. So while it is, like, such a dream to have the opportunity, it's also like that, that heaviness of like, is this a dream or am I just, like, in a walking nightmare?
[00:15:38] Speaker B: Woof.
[00:15:39] Speaker A: Because what if I make a mistake? What if I prove that I don't belong here instead of what if I prove that I do? What if I prove I don't? And that's like, them.
The stuff that goes through my brain.
[00:15:49] Speaker B: Oh, you could sit in that ping pong battle all night long. Have you come across anything that really works for you, that gets you onto the other side of that?
[00:15:57] Speaker A: I just feel like I have the resilience to be able to push back against it where I have it instilled in me. Maybe the work ethic from my parents. That's like, I did sign up for this job. So even though I'm telling myself I shouldn't be doing this job, I signed up for it, so I have to complete it.
[00:16:14] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: I have to get through it, whether.
[00:16:16] Speaker B: I'm worthy or not. I signed up to be here. Here I am. I'm going to do it.
[00:16:21] Speaker A: I have to fulfill what I promised because I can't go back on my word. Because my word is who I am.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: Yes, you belong on that set for sure. Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about your experience, specifically with social media, because I think that you created a space for yourself in this world, at least partially, by using that platform and getting some visibility there. Could you talk a little bit about your experience with social media at the beginning and where you are wrestling with it right now.
[00:16:50] Speaker A: Yeah. So I was not a social media person to start with. Like I didn't make my instagram until like 2015 or so slow to it. But I would use. Use YouTube. Like I would just like improv in a studio and someone said like always film your improvs. And so I would. And then I was like, listen to YouTube and whatever.
And then I created Instagram.
In the process, like a couple months later or so, someone from America's Got Talent reaches out and they're like, hey, we saw your YouTube videos. Would you like to do the show? Amazing. And I was like, okay, I guess.
[00:17:25] Speaker B: What were your thoughts about like being involved in a like big platform competition show like that?
[00:17:32] Speaker A: I had like zero thoughts about it because in my mind I was this like very modern dancer that was like, I just create for me. Like I don't do for the consumption of others. And so the idea of like the commercial world was like completely out of my mind.
[00:17:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:47] Speaker A: So then it came to me and I was like, okay. And they even said they're like, can you judge it up? Can you add a little bit more of this? Like this is beautiful. But can you add like a little bit more turn a little bit more leap? Because I was very into just like, yeah, gesture forward choreography. So I did. And then because you can.
[00:18:06] Speaker B: Which is if they asked me to do that, I'd be like, oh, I.
[00:18:09] Speaker A: Don'T know, I don't know. Then I posted to Instagram. This is what I was like, 15 seconds was like the max. You can.
[00:18:15] Speaker B: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The good old days.
[00:18:16] Speaker A: Databank's Got Talent got cut at the second round. Cuz no dancer ever goes far in that show. And then I went viral. This page Worldwide Dance shared me and.
[00:18:28] Speaker B: I love that account.
[00:18:29] Speaker A: Like the New York Post shared. And then people and all these things. I was like, so it had.
[00:18:35] Speaker B: So you had a quick turn. There was a tipping point.
[00:18:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:38] Speaker B: It wasn't like slow over time garnered viewers. It was like there was the before times and then there was the after.
[00:18:44] Speaker A: It was a little bit because I didn't get too many followers from it. I think I jumped from like 800 followers to 6,000.
[00:18:51] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:18:53] Speaker A: But I started getting messages that were like, I love your work. This makes me want to dance. And I was like, I should pour into this and I should try to use this to elevate myself and to create a platform and to be able to be a voice. Yeah. It's like getting emails was a crazy thing. To someone be like, I signed up for a dance class because I saw your video. Like, what?
[00:19:14] Speaker B: Cool.
[00:19:15] Speaker A: And I randomly used, like, dancers come in all sizes as a hashtag one day. And I didn't think anything about it, but my dance teacher was like, that's your brand.
[00:19:24] Speaker B: There it is.
[00:19:25] Speaker A: She was like, you need to use that. So then I started including it in everything. And that kind of created that kind of movement for myself.
[00:19:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:32] Speaker A: So I just kept pushing the platform to grow because it was also my way into the dance industry because I didn't grow up with, like, a background in dance. I started, like, at 16 is really when I started training. So I didn't do have the competition in convention world. I didn't have baked into the circuit. I was in Pittsburgh. I was disconnected. I didn't have the capability of being seen at a young age and growing relationships. So it's like, how can I be seen? It's like, I don't have a lot of money. I didn't come from, like, a family with a lot of money. So this was also my way of tiptoeing into the industry to be like, hi, I'm over here too.
And so I kind of simultaneously did that where I wasn't trying to work as, like, an influencer, but just build myself as Eric and build what that means for me as a platform versus, like, hey, guys, I'm drinking this new skinny tea.
So it was just like creating a movement to help create movement for others. And so then I created my own brand of, like, as a dancer and my own name.
So it's like, just keeps growing and expanding. And it still is, like, a crazy thing to see, like, the numbers on social media and to see the view counts because it's like, it doesn't feel real because, like, is it real? But I. I guess it is real.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: I mean, numbers don't lie. But where do numbers come from? Yeah, like, I don't understand. I think it changes. Social media is changing all the time. And people talk about the algorithm and what it likes and what it doesn't like, but nobody actually knows. So do you enjoy being in that space on the platforms?
[00:21:09] Speaker A: Like, sometimes, you know, being able to reach people.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:14] Speaker A: Around the world and help inspire is definitely what keeps me going. But there are times that I do get the quite the opposite. The death threats, the, like, hate the, you know, Belittlement. Yeah. Like, and that for the most part, it doesn't always affect me, but sometimes people just dig a little deeper. That it does. Whenever I do get the things of, like wishing me to die or threatening, like, if you see me on the street, you're going to attack me. Like, that's the stuff where I do pause and like, huh.
Me dancing in a dance studio makes you so angry.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:52] Speaker A: That you want to hurt me. But why?
And I mean, I'm able to eventually push through it, through the help of friends, to be like, don't allow someone to take your joy to have that power. But it does hurt sometimes.
[00:22:07] Speaker B: Overall, thinking that that exists, that that kind of rage exists, makes me bummed. But of course, as I'm sure your friends have told you and you've thought for yourself, that that says far more about that person than that says about you. And I feel bad that that is their response towards you and your talent, which I also see as being. Your talent, is undeniable. And I think that it's a funny thing. Dance is subjective, right? But a number of turns is not subjective. It is a number of turns. A person without hard work, craftsmanship, technique, and the will to fucking do it can't do four pirouettes. They just can't.
So you can. And on a good day, you're undeniable. I mean, shit, I don't remember the last time I did a triple. Oh, maybe in class. Yeah, we do across the floor sometimes. Anyways, I think you're undeniable. And I feel sorry for that person in their response, but I'm sure, yeah, it's gonna.
[00:23:09] Speaker A: I do, too. But also realize, like, it's their. It's their damage from life, and it's like their burden they're carrying. And sometimes it makes them feel good to hurt somebody else so they. They feel like someone's on the same.
[00:23:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:21] Speaker A: Hurt. They are.
[00:23:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Haters gonna hate.
[00:23:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: Tell me. Let's gently segue away from the haters. Something you're looking forward to in this upcoming year. I understand you took some time to reflect and have a. A path for yourself. A North Star. More or less.
[00:23:39] Speaker A: Yeah. So last year, I talked to my agent. Was like, I don't know what I want. I felt like I checked off a lot of the boxes where I was like, I don't feel like billboard in 10 square.
[00:23:52] Speaker B: Check. Big movie, Check.
[00:23:55] Speaker A: I. I was at, like, a New Year's party, and someone was like, what are your goals for 2024? And I was like, I honestly don't know. So I kind of took the year to be like, what do I want? Do I want to keep doing the Hustle and audition life or do I want to settle into something else. So I kind of took the year to see, like, what felt right.
[00:24:14] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:24:14] Speaker A: And I just had some things. Yeah. And, like, focus maybe a little bit more on teaching and, like, letting that be my focal point.
[00:24:21] Speaker B: Cool.
[00:24:22] Speaker A: And then the year ended, and I was like, oh, I want it all. I want it all again. I don't want to settle on what I did.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: That's a fun realization.
[00:24:33] Speaker A: Yeah. So I had another call with my agent, and I was like, so it's everything. Every dance job, everything you see, I want be like, submit me for it. I want it. I would like. And she was like, thank you. She was like, we've been so selective on what to send you. We've been trying to like. But she was like, I am so happy you want this. She was like, we're gonna do this. And because then I also sat and I realized, like, I do wanna make a change in the dance industry, and I do wanna make it more accessible, more for more people. And to do that, I have to be visible. I have to be a figure for kids to see as capable. Like, they have to see their self in me. They have to see, like, I can go into the dance industry because look at what Eric is doing.
[00:25:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:17] Speaker A: Like, and I. That's what I want. I want to change how we view ourselves as dancers and how we, like, view our bodies and love our bodies. Like, if you want to change it, that's okay. But, like, love every step of it. And, like, I want to be able to push that and be able to reach kids. And I think it does help to see that you look at someone like Misty Copeland that has been a figurehead for, like, young black girls and be like, oh, I can do this. Because look at her on Under Armour with abt, and it's just, like, everywhere. She is a figurehead that lets them all know how accessible it is with the right drive and will to go forward. So I need that. I need to be that. For the young mes that didn't have it, but had the dance teacher that said, he's too fat, he'll never make it.
[00:26:00] Speaker B: Yep.
Do you feel pressure from that thought or do you feel liberation from that thought? Like, I need to be that person.
[00:26:11] Speaker A: It's a little bit of both. Because, you know you don't want to fail, Right. Because then you feel like you're failing.
[00:26:19] Speaker B: Not just letting yourself down, but all.
[00:26:21] Speaker A: The young youth and everything you're trying to build. So there is that pressure. And then also coming with, like, building a platform and building a name. You know, you also are afraid to fail like in person. So if I take a class I'm like, which you probably are the same that you're like, I don't want to like mess up this a count because it's you're Dana Wilson or like Mary Kavanaugh. Like how is it going to look for these other people that say like they messed up?
[00:26:43] Speaker B: Right. Right.
[00:26:44] Speaker A: Are they really worthy of that?
[00:26:46] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: So there is that added pressure of that where it's like, you know, being able. But it's also learning how to let go of that expectation of ourselves because it doesn't exist in other people. No one is expecting us to be superhumans.
[00:26:59] Speaker B: No, no. In fact I feel like other people's expectations of me are quite low relative to the ones I have for myself.
I think that what you're kind of approaching or already certainly already are doing. But it's cool to hear about your renewed vigor for it is this multi pronged approach to making change. Part of it is the hands on exchange that you have with young students in class. Real words, real, in like real time exchanges. You see person do this, you give feedback that's important. But then there's also like the part that's working while you're sleeping. Your social media presence, the billboards, the movies, the things like that. The things that are always out there findable even when you're having your you time or having your year where you're recalibrating or whatever it is. So I find huge reward in both. I love doing work that's highly visible. I also love teaching a class at ML every other Tuesday that's like usually 12 to 25 people in there. Love that like real one on one exchange. So it sounds like you're lit up by both. You're lit up by having in person connections. Meaningful hands on teaching is lighting you up. But also you're not going to stop engaging on social media as exactly who you are. And I can't wait to see what comes your way work wise. That's really, really cool.
[00:28:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm excited.
[00:28:28] Speaker B: Where can people find you and your classes?
[00:28:31] Speaker A: Right now I teach at the Millennium we have in Nashville on Mondays at 8:30 I teach an intermediate advanced contemporary and then fly me to your studios.
[00:28:43] Speaker B: Work contact info below.
Anyways, I spent some time in Nashville working on the movie Holland which also is about to come out. This is exciting times and I really loved it there. Good food, good music. I was staying. Is it technically downtown, like bachelorette capital of America? Not really in love with that. It was very loud. But what is the dance landscape like there? Are you enjoying dance life in Nashville?
[00:29:11] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, the dance community in Nashville is definitely growing more and more, and there's, like, so many people coming in and out. Yeah.
[00:29:19] Speaker B: Capacity grows.
[00:29:21] Speaker A: They. I think as a state, Tennessee just upped their tax bridge rebate for film to be there more.
[00:29:29] Speaker B: That makes sense.
[00:29:31] Speaker A: So things are. Are moving and shifting, and Nashville has had a big, like, magnifying glass on it in the past few years because of the Bachelorettes, and they bring a lot of money to the city. So then everyone is, like, looking at Nashville and it's also. Nashville is good to get to the rest of the world. Like, it's a direct flight to la. It's a direct flight to New York. It's a direct flight everywhere. So it is a.
[00:29:56] Speaker B: It's a hub. Yeah, it's. It's.
[00:29:58] Speaker A: It's a growing hub.
[00:29:59] Speaker B: It's climbing. Yeah.
Do you imagine yourself, I mean, you come here for work all the time to la. You work in New York often. What would you say to the listener, viewer out there that thinks they need to be in a big city in order to do big things?
[00:30:16] Speaker A: Take your time getting there. I think what happens with a lot of dancers is that they feel like they have to rush to a city. And if your heart is pulling you, there goes, go for it. But it's okay to take your time, build your resume, build your confidence, build your comfortability on camera before jumping into the giant oceans that are Atlanta, New York, Louisiana. Because a thousand dances probably landed today and another 2,000 tomorrow.
So it's easy to get swallowed up into the mix if you don't have good grounding.
[00:30:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:51] Speaker A: And I feel like that's where sometimes dancers can falter, because they head out here, their eyes are glistening, they're so ready for it. And it's like, where do you take class? Who do you take class from? How do I get the auditions? How do I get the agents? Because agents don't have auditions anymore. How do I find my way into this? It's so expensive. It's so overwhelming. There's so much going on. How do I. And then after a year or so, they're like, maybe I don't want to dance anymore. And it's like, if you take your time, allow yourself to just know who you are and build the rapport with people around you and come with a strong foundation of yourself, then you can tackle the cities.
[00:31:29] Speaker B: I like what you just said a lot about the self part, because I think the idea of readiness is really sliding scale. And if you are trying to look to others for your readiness, if your metric for ready is I'm as good as Dana or I'm as good as so and so, I think having a metric for readiness that's outside of yourself, you might find yourself never ready. But there's, like, a knowing of self that I would recommend, even readiness being measured by your willingness to take a hit. Like, I'll know that I'm ready when I can be confident enough to receive a hundred no's and still tell myself yes. Like, if I'm not that ready yet, then I'm probably not ready.
[00:32:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And I also. What I try to push in my classes is like, letting dancers develop their artistry, because you also need that to book a job. Because you go to.
[00:32:31] Speaker B: You need a voice.
[00:32:32] Speaker A: You need a voice. Yeah. And I try to tell them, like, at some point, we all know a double pirouette. We all know a batmat. We all know a lieb. How do you make yours better or different? And that's the artistry. That's the you. Because, yeah, you can have a clean double, but then you have someone like Autumn Miller who might show up and could do like, 15, right. On a bad day.
[00:32:51] Speaker B: Right.
[00:32:51] Speaker A: So how can you.
How can you be in the same room and still stand confidently? It's like your artistry is like, to make your double pirouette feel as full as the 15 she's going to whip out or the batma that goes behind the head. How do you do that? And that's artistry. And that's where. When I have dancers come through my class teaching contemporary, I'm always like, I'm giving you this dance, but where can you take it that. I know it's my dance, but it's yours now. I can see my steps, but I feel you as a dancer. That's what I feel like dancers also need before going to a city is the ability to know themselves so that when they audition, they can sell it. Because dance is selling a product huge. And you can't sell a product if you're just worrying about, like, is my bottom up here? Am I rotating my hip? Like, it's where the artistry comes in, and that's where the performance quality comes in. That's where the development as a working dancer starts, is here as an artist and not just be a replicator of steps.
[00:33:48] Speaker B: Cool. I love that you said that. And I. I want to take a second to put. I love that you said the word product.
Because I want to take a second to put the magnifying glass on commercial. Dance is kind of what we've been talking about the whole time is dance that sells something. In the entertainment industry, you're either selling the album of the pop star that you're dancing for or you're selling Amazon prime or Target or whatever the company is or a specific product. And I think more specifically than that, what you're selling is. Or usually in a commercial, you're selling life without is bad and life with is good. So you're selling the idea that this person is sexy and cool and alluring or whatever. Or this product is gonna make your life better. They're gonna. It's gonna make you better. Or this company is that, like, you have to be able to embody the idea that, like, it's a. It's a magic trick a little bit.
[00:34:48] Speaker A: Yeah. You're selling a feeling.
[00:34:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:50] Speaker A: Like on tour, you know, there's maybe not like the physical product, but you are selling the pop star on the album. You're selling it to the audience to make them want to dance with you. Like. Yeah. You're hitting the apron to make them.
[00:35:02] Speaker B: Want to listen, to make them want to imagine themselves with you or imagine themselves as that person.
[00:35:07] Speaker A: Yeah. And just having a good time and dancing with you and like enjoying the entire experience. Like it's. You're selling a feeling. Yes.
[00:35:15] Speaker B: You have to have an imagination. You have to be able to embody feeling. Yeah.
[00:35:20] Speaker A: Because nothing about dance is natural. Dance is not natural. Humans don't. Well, humans are naturally.
[00:35:27] Speaker B: Like heroines and bobbers are not natural.
[00:35:29] Speaker A: That's what I'm saying. Like, you can't naturally. Like, a human's not going to naturally, like kick their head or like jump through the air into a split. Dancers are, but we have to make it feel natural. Like, oh, my God, me taking this Celsius drink and jumping then makes me want to grand jete.
[00:35:46] Speaker B: Right.
[00:35:47] Speaker A: The normal humans at home are like, I'm not gonna do that. But it's the feeling of like, the freedom of like lifting through the air. It's like, that's what you're selling.
[00:35:55] Speaker B: I could jump. I could fly.
[00:35:57] Speaker A: Look at all this energy I have.
[00:35:58] Speaker B: Yes. Okay. This is gonna be a what we call wrist roll with it. It's a rapid fire burnout round. You ready? Okay. Just answer from the guts. Coffee or tea?
[00:36:09] Speaker A: Coffee.
[00:36:09] Speaker B: Dogs or cats?
[00:36:10] Speaker A: Dogs.
[00:36:13] Speaker B: She's glad with you. She's very happy with your answer. Favorite song from the gut Go. Nobody's gonna judge you.
[00:36:21] Speaker A: I mean, my brain is.
[00:36:24] Speaker B: It went from easy to hard.
[00:36:25] Speaker A: I know. My brain was like, what is a song?
[00:36:27] Speaker B: Slide to that.
[00:36:28] Speaker A: There's no songs anymore.
[00:36:29] Speaker B: Okay, pause on that one then. Favorite dance move?
[00:36:31] Speaker A: A Calypso.
[00:36:32] Speaker B: Nice. Oh, yeah, you're very good at them. Question. So many of your videos. Are you dancing in your own space?
[00:36:37] Speaker A: I'm dancing at Millennium.
[00:36:39] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:36:39] Speaker A: Or in my house.
[00:36:40] Speaker B: Okay. Or in your house.
Like a Shoney Calypso in a small space.
You have mastered.
[00:36:48] Speaker A: I have.
[00:36:48] Speaker B: You have mastered.
[00:36:50] Speaker A: I look at the space, I'm like, okay, if I come in from this angle and I go this way and I have the camera here. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.
[00:36:57] Speaker B: As a young person once, I was learning the original choreography from the opening. The audition of A Chorus Line.
No, Cats. The opening number of Cats. But also A Chorus Line also happened in my living room.
[00:37:09] Speaker A: Chorus Line is a lie, though, because they count you in an eight and it's a six.
[00:37:12] Speaker B: It's a lie. Right.
[00:37:13] Speaker A: 5, 6, 7, 8. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 6. That posse choreographers. Learned your counts.
[00:37:21] Speaker B: Movie. Movie makers. Get it right. But also, it was Cats. And there's an inside fan. I'm going to include a clip of it where it's like a roundhouse. Like inside whip of a fan where I kicked my coffee table so hard I almost threw up. Have you had any incidents at home filming? Like, I mean, you also dance in a high heel often. You can't tell me there are not. There's not a blooper reel.
[00:37:47] Speaker A: I'll post them on my stories of me. Like, even in the dance studio because we have chandeliers. I'll hit it. Because I'm like too.
[00:37:54] Speaker B: Yeah, you're tall.
[00:37:55] Speaker A: I'm just in the moment and then I'll like jump and then like my hand hits and like.
[00:37:59] Speaker B: Yes. Oh, my God. The retract immediately. Okay. Yes. I was just. I just remember seeing, like, the first one. I was like, oh, my God. The spatial awareness. V. Impressed. Okay, we're back. Rapid fire. If you could sing, like, anyone, who would it be?
[00:38:14] Speaker A: Judy Garland.
Which I'll say. Somewhere over the rainbow.
[00:38:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:20] Speaker A: For favorite song.
[00:38:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, great. Love that. Love that. Have you ever choreographed to it?
[00:38:25] Speaker A: I have not.
[00:38:26] Speaker B: Would you?
[00:38:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:28] Speaker B: Okay. I have a kind of do not touch list. A lot of my favorite songs are like choreography. No go's.
[00:38:34] Speaker A: There's some that I try that are like favorite songs. I'm like, I'm gonna go dance this. And again, this to you. I'm like, I can't dance to this. That's always a crazy thing where I'm like, this song is so good. It speaks to me. I'm gonna see him. Like, it doesn't speak to me that way though.
[00:38:46] Speaker B: Right like that. Not right now anyways. Sometimes it might show up later. We're back. Morning rehearsals or nighttime rehearsals?
[00:38:53] Speaker A: Morning.
[00:38:54] Speaker B: What kind of shoes do you prefer to wear while dancing?
[00:38:56] Speaker A: Barefoot or sock?
[00:38:58] Speaker B: Yeah, that was a trick question.
A collaborator. Living or dead? Somebody you'd really love to work with.
[00:39:04] Speaker A: Alexander McQueen.
[00:39:06] Speaker B: Yes. I think you might have even said that the first time we did this.
[00:39:09] Speaker A: Still thinks through.
[00:39:10] Speaker B: Oh, man, oh, man. Are you a person that's heavily influenced by fashion?
[00:39:14] Speaker A: Yes. I love fashion. And I love fashion now, including dance.
[00:39:20] Speaker B: More because all bodies.
[00:39:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:23] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:39:23] Speaker A: It's so interesting, like how clothing can just change a mood huge.
[00:39:29] Speaker B: And inform your movement. Yo.
[00:39:32] Speaker A: So you move differently with something is like dangling. You move differently if it's fringe.
[00:39:36] Speaker B: You move differently if there's rubber soles on your shoes versus leather soles. Yeah.
[00:39:41] Speaker A: It's like so impactful.
[00:39:43] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. I love. Well, I don't know, maybe you can relate to this. Also stepping aside from wrist roll with it for a while, I've had, like most dancers, I think, a challenging relationship with the fittings. The moment where you are fitted, I can imagine.
[00:40:03] Speaker A: I have a lot of feelings on the fittings.
[00:40:05] Speaker B: Can you share some of them, please?
[00:40:07] Speaker A: Yeah, most of them. I'm providing my own clothes, so I'm gonna speak directly to the camera. For anybody that's working in costume departments have clothes for plus sized people. Yeah. The bump you get from SAG for dry cleaning does not cover that. I have to bring my entire wardrobe. To do your job. One time I would did a TV show and I asked, do I have to bring anything? It was down in Atlanta and they said, no, you're good. I get down to Atlanta. It's a four hour drive. We have the shoot the next day. And do you have your suit? We need a suit. We don't have something for you. I can't drive four hours back. Luckily, I had per diem from another job that I did. So I went to the store and I bought a suit. As a plus sized guy, I'm not readily available in everywhere. So I went to the store that has them and it's an expensive store, So I spent $400.
[00:40:54] Speaker B: Oh.
[00:40:56] Speaker A: Wrote it off my taxes for sure. But there was nothing for me on set. The other dancers had something.
[00:41:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:04] Speaker A: I have had to provide My own clothes almost every single time. Other than when I did, like Savage, because I'm wearing Rihanna's clothes, you know. But for the most part, I'm having to provide my own clothes or I'm getting stuff that's so ill fitted.
[00:41:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:21] Speaker A: That it's. I remember sending my, like, measurements immediately. I'm very on top of my emails for a lot of things.
[00:41:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. You're business.
[00:41:28] Speaker A: They asked me for my measurements. I have a notes app. It's screenshotted, sent away. And they. This one production asked me for like four times because they kept. I never sent it. I was like, I have receipts that I sent it. Then they had to measure me in person. And then they gave me these pants that were too big for me. So it's like you just went to the store. I grabbed something. So now I'm dancing, my pants are falling.
And I didn't get those pants until the day of the shoot.
[00:41:53] Speaker B: That's tough, my friend.
[00:41:55] Speaker A: And it's. It's. Honestly, it's heartbreaking that it's like you can't go to the store, but I can. I can go to the store for me. Why can't you?
[00:42:05] Speaker B: I'm so sorry that happened.
[00:42:07] Speaker A: Happens.
[00:42:07] Speaker B: I'm sure that's one of many nightmare stories from the fittings.
[00:42:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:11] Speaker B: Yeah. It's my least favorite thing.
[00:42:13] Speaker A: I just. I don't understand it because I wanna. I wanna be able to just show up like everyone else.
[00:42:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:21] Speaker A: And do the job that I'm being paid to do.
[00:42:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:23] Speaker A: Because now I'm having to do wardrobe. I'm not being paid to be a wardrobe stylist. I. I'm not being paid to do my own cost.
[00:42:32] Speaker B: It's not your job. That's not your job.
[00:42:34] Speaker A: My job is to remember the eight counts that I was taught.
[00:42:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:37] Speaker A: But now I have to make sure I have options to bring.
[00:42:41] Speaker B: Yeah. I think this is a great example of the times changing faster than the systems that are trying to support the times. Like the times says, we want representation. The systems and the people in place in the systems aren't prepared for that change quite yet. I'm sorry that you're caught in.
[00:43:00] Speaker A: That does extend into the dance world a little bit. Where the industry side I've been having this conversation has progressed forward to be more inclusive and understanding of not just body types, but like skin color and backgrounds and including everyone, no matter how they identify, no matter how they look. Making sure there is someone seen the dance studio convention competition world.
[00:43:25] Speaker B: Oh.
[00:43:26] Speaker A: Still very behind. In my opinion. That doesn't you go to a competition and you can look at the panel and it. They look very similar and we're missing the inclusivity and. Oh, yeah, that's like teaching kids. Like kids. Seeing a judge that looks like them giving the notes, it helps them understand. Like they. You have a better understanding of what the dancer is going through if you can be in their shoes and they can feel more comfortable because they can see themselves sitting on a panel.
[00:43:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. It's a huge area for improvement for the convention circuit or the convention industry, I should say. And it's funny that you bring it up. I just yesterday had as a guest Sydney Mescher, who has a limb difference. She doesn't have a left hand, and she came up through nycda. I remember her as a student very clearly because she is the only student that I can recall at NYCDA with a visible disability in my insane number of years. I started teaching for NYCDA in 2009.
So, yeah, I don't think that dance studios. I mean, it's hard.
You had a teacher out of how many. That was encouraging of you. I think that that's part of it. But I also think that young kids, just part of growing up, can be assholes.
[00:44:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:41] Speaker B: And so I don't blame you if you don't want to be surrounded by young kids all the time, but I feel like I. I hope. I'm not sure if that episode will be out yet, but Sydney had some really inspiring things to say to young people, but also to working people who have always had a different experience of dance. And it was. It was really inspiring to hear from her. And I think you. You are echoing her sentiment. And thank you for shining a light on that. So important.
Okay, a couple more rapid fires. You ready?
[00:45:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:10] Speaker B: Favorite word. A favorite move. And then, yes, I will be asking your least favorite move. So go ahead and cue that up.
[00:45:16] Speaker A: Like, because favorite move in dance.
[00:45:19] Speaker B: Favorite dance move. Yes.
[00:45:20] Speaker A: Calypso.
[00:45:21] Speaker B: Oh, that's right. You already said that.
[00:45:22] Speaker A: Least favorite move fouettes. Really pulling into.
[00:45:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, yeah. I also cannot remember the last time I did one. Okay, Eric, this is the Words that Move Me podcast, and I'm wondering if you have any words that move you. A mantra, a guiding principle, a poem, a horoscope, a riddle.
[00:45:43] Speaker A: I don't know, something that I've been. It was just something that rolled off the tongue when I was teaching at a studio.
If you're given a no, find your yes.
[00:45:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that so much you say no. What is my yes?
What can I say yes because if.
[00:46:03] Speaker A: The store is closed, there's going to be another tour.
[00:46:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Where is my yes? Thank you so much for sharing that. And thank you so much for being here and sharing your shining your light, my friend. I do think it's so important to see people out in the world. Visible representation is so very important. But I also think it's very cool that people are getting to hear from you and so grateful for you sharing your story, your experience, and the things that you're looking forward to. So excited for you.
[00:46:32] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:46:33] Speaker B: You're so welcome. This went so well. Fingers crossed it stays that way. No pressure. No pressure. Thank you listener viewer for being here. I'm Dana like and subscribe the videos. Be sure to leave a review or rating and get out there. Keep it funky.
This podcast was produced by me with the help of many. Big big love to our Executive Assistant and editor, Riley Higgins. Our Communications Manager is Fiona Small with additional support from Ori Vagidares. Our music is by Max Winnie, logo and brand design by Bree Reitz. And if you're digging the podcast, leave a review and rating and please share. Also, if you want to connect with me and the many marvelous members of the Words that Move Me community, visit words that move me.com if you're simply curious to know more about me and the work that I do outside of this podcast, visit thedanawilson.com.
