Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Foreign.
[00:00:04] Yo. I'm Dana. Welcome to Words that Move Me.
[00:00:08] I'm stoked that you're here. I always say this, but I really am stoked about this episode. Actually, more than stoked. I am shocked. It is insane to me that I haven't already covered this topic. I'm stoked to get into it. But first.
[00:00:23] Yes. I'm gonna leave you on the edge of your seat. You know the title of the episode. Whatever. First we're gonna do wins Today. Today I'm celebrating getting back into hustle. And I don't mean hustle as in making money, although that is relevant to this episode.
[00:00:39] No, I mean hustle as in the social dance.
[00:00:42] It is so fun. It is so funky. It is so sexy and cool and also hard for me right now.
[00:00:49] But damn it, I'm committed to getting better at it. My dear friend Cindy Salgado introduced me to hustle all the way back. And then my dear friend Ally Marconi taught me everything I know about it. And I got to meet up with Cindy last weekend, and we got to hustle for, like, four minutes. Like, four actual minutes. But if you know Cindy Salgado, then you know that even four minutes dancing with her is a huge win. So there you have it. That's my win. That's what's going well in my world.
[00:01:17] Now it's your turn. What's going well in yours?
[00:01:21] Say it out loud.
[00:01:33] Yay.
[00:01:36] Congratulations, my friend. I'm glad that you're winning. I'm cheering you on.
[00:01:40] Keep crushing it. Okay, let's do this.
[00:01:45] I get a lot of questions from dancers that I teach and coach and mentor and even just people that are just my friends about how to get an agent, about how to book work, about how to book more work, about how to book the kind of work that you want to be doing.
[00:02:01] And at the core of all of those questions is the desire to make money doing what you love.
[00:02:08] Who doesn't want to make money doing what you love? This is the dream. This is the American dream that we have been told we can have for a price.
[00:02:16] And, of course, that price is training.
[00:02:21] That price is living in a city where there is that kind of work. That price is food to keep you alive. Like, holy shit, the price of eggs. Listen, it's expensive to be alive in the world today. It's not cheap, and it's certainly not easy to do what you love for a living, especially if what you love is dance.
[00:02:41] Now, I'm not going to talk about the American dream or the economy or Even the cost and value of eggs, which I could go on about. For a full spin off podcast, what I'm going to talk about today is how dancers make money. Because it turns out dancers aren't the only ones who want to know.
[00:03:00] The other day I was brainstorming podcast topics and I did a quick little Google search about what the general public wants to know about dancers. And I typed in how do dancers? And here's what came up.
[00:03:13] How do dancers make money?
[00:03:16] How do dancers not get dizzy? How do dancers dress? Which I found particularly funny because I go out in the world and I'm like, is everyone here a dancer? Is everyone dancing for a living? Because everyone is dressing like a dancer. How do dancers say good luck? How do dancers train? How do dancers stay so thin?
[00:03:38] How do dancers learn choreography? How do dancers stay in shape? And again, how do dancers get paid?
[00:03:44] So two times, how do dancers stay in shape?
[00:03:48] And how do dancers make money?
[00:03:51] So what I'm actually the most interested in in this list is how do dancers learn choreography? I think I'm going to do a full podcast episode about that because I'm very interested in learning in general.
[00:04:04] But what's fascinating to me is that today it's not only professionals learning choreography, Everybody is learning choreography. Thanks, TikTok. So I think it would be interesting to see if we learn it differently. Like, is the way that a professional dancer learns choreography fundamentally different than how a normie learns choreography? I don't know, but I want to find out. So if there are any neuroscientists listening that are worth a damn, then reach out. Sorry, I just challenged you neuroscientists. Okay, we're back. Money, favorite topic. How do dancers make money?
[00:04:42] There have to be hundreds of different kinds of jobs for dancers. You can be on Broadway, TV shows, movies, music videos, commercials. You could dance at a bat mitzvah or on a contemporary company or on a cruise ship. Or you could teach or you could choreograph in any one of those mediums.
[00:05:01] But there are really only three answers to this question.
[00:05:05] How do dancers make money?
[00:05:07] One answer, three parts. They either book it on an audition or a self tape submission or there's a casting, whatever. They audition, they try to get the part from a clean slate or they get direct booked, which means they get hired without an audition, usually through existing relationships or their existing body of work or word of mouth, period.
[00:05:33] Or third option, they create the work themselves. That's it. There are three answers to this question. How do dancers make money by booking work? Either by audition, by direct book, or by creating it themselves, simply put.
[00:05:48] Okay, so as a fun exercise, I went through my resume and highlighted in purple my direct bookings.
[00:05:56] This is a flex, and this is why you should be watching the podcast. In pink, the ones that I had to audition for, and in yellow, the work that I created for myself for you listeners only.
[00:06:08] The overwhelming majority, 81%, is from a direct booking. Oh, disclaimer.
[00:06:17] This is my choreography resume, so we'll talk about that in just a second. Anyways, 80% of the work from relationship, I didn't have to formally submit for 81% of my choreography work.
[00:06:30] The work that I did have to submit or audition for makes up 16% of this list. And the remaining 3% is work that I created.
[00:06:40] 3%. Okay, now we have to talk about this because this is important. This is my choreography resume. It's not a picture of my entire financial income as a dance type. It doesn't include teaching, it doesn't include unpaid things, it doesn't include coaching.
[00:06:56] Yeah, anything that I did that wasn't paid. No podcast, no coaching, no dance.
[00:07:01] That's this list. So not complete.
[00:07:06] And it's for that reason that there's only one Seaweed sister project on this list.
[00:07:12] Anyways, a lot of the stuff that I do for my heart isn't on this list because a lot of that stuff doesn't pay me. And this is my professional choreography resume.
[00:07:20] I think the part that is important to point out is that so many of the projects I've had in purple, all of my, not all, but most of my direct bookings are from people who know, trust and love me. Because of my yellow list, because of the work that I do with the Seaweed sisters, for example, I have a lot of these relationships that are in purple right here. So although yellow doesn't show up on the money making list, so much of this list is because of the relationships that I have from that type of work. My passion projects led to direct bookings. So I think even if I expanded this list to be all paid work, to include dance, to include teaching, to include coaching and podcasts, et cetera, I still think I'd see a similar distribution of numbers. Most of the work would, would will come to me through relationships by people that already know me and my work and they hire me without a submission. A smaller percentage will be from submitting and an even smaller still will be the passion stuff.
[00:08:29] And I, I think that's kind of normal. Maybe, I'm not sure, but I'm curious to hear. Will you let me know if this is normal?
[00:08:36] Anyways, I think it's important to point out that one of the biggest ways dancers book work is by connecting to and relating to our community and by being front of mind of people and by having a strong reputation. As a result of that, we're always having to refamiliarize and reintroduce ourselves to our communities. On top of managing our business, training, living our real human lives, paying our taxes, it is like a full time job to be in relationships with your whole community.
[00:09:08] Biggest takeaway, it can feel like a full time job to simply maintain relationships. But y' all, it's worth it.
[00:09:15] Speaking of relationships and receiving money and being paid, this is usually where an agent or representative comes into the picture. If you don't have an agent or rep, you likely negotiate the terms of your contract yourself.
[00:09:27] Slash, you likely don't negotiate the terms of your contract yourself. You just receive whatever somebody hands you and sign it and then you receive the money directly. Fingers crossed, hopefully. But if you have an agent or rep, they look at the terms of the contract and make tweaks and changes if they see fit. And then payment is made to the agency, they keep their 10% or whatever you've negotiated and then the agency cuts you a check.
[00:09:52] Like that's that workflow.
[00:09:54] Side note moment for a hot take right now.
[00:09:58] I love giving my agent work. I love sending them work. I have no problem at all with asking my agent to negotiate terms of an agreement and take 10% of a project that came directly to me through personal channels. I feel great about it. I love it. I will unpack. Why parentheses Partially because depending on the terms of your generalist service agreement, it's in breach of contract. Not to. That's just one of the reasons. But that's fodder for a future episode. Please subscribe and stay freaking tuned. And anyways, I love breaking my agent off. Is it? Do people say that that's not correct? I love bringing work to my agent. I don't think it's their job to always be bringing work to me. I think it is our job to work together and that's how I feel about that.
[00:10:46] Battle me if you want to. Okay.
[00:10:50] Dancers make money by audition or self tape submission or direct booking or by creating the work themselves. Okay. Now you notice when I showed you my resume that obviously that's only my paid work, but there's only one Seaweed Sisters project on that list that's been paid. I do want to just see if that landed for you because we've been doing that work for 12 years, and we have paid for every single project that we've made in the last 12 years. If you want to talk about how much I'm happy to get into that, so send me a dm. But here's what I really want to say with this episode 15 minutes later is that creating your own work isn't money out. It's money in. It's an investment.
[00:11:37] It's money in the bank, really.
[00:11:39] And that's really even just the passion project stuff. Here's the even better part. There is actually a way to turn your passion projects into very real money. And that's what I want to talk about with this episode.
[00:11:53] So in this regard, the way a dancer makes money is actually the exact same way everybody makes money, and that is by creating value.
[00:12:03] We make money by creating something of value and selling it. And that's the dumbest, simplest way I can explain it. But because I like you, I'm gonna go five steps further, five steps deeper.
[00:12:16] Okay?
[00:12:17] Step one, create the value. Step two, find the people who need the valuable thing.
[00:12:23] Step three, decide how much to charge first. Said valuable thing. That can be tough. Step four, tell the people. Tell them what it is, where to get it, how much it costs, how they get it. Step five, tweak it.
[00:12:36] Change the cost or the explanation of the thing or the thing itself.
[00:12:41] Step six, charge and receive the money.
[00:12:45] I think that's it. How does a dancer make money? How does anyone make money?
[00:12:50] By creating value, Finding the people, deciding how much to charge, telling the people about it, tweaking if you need to, and then charging and receiving the funds. That's it.
[00:13:01] So simple, right? Okay, I'm going to give some examples here. Actually, one example that my brain has kind of been chewing on for a while.
[00:13:08] Step one. Okay, I'm Dana.
[00:13:11] I have a certain set of skills and experiences and relationships, and I have noticed a problem in my community.
[00:13:19] I have noticed a problem and I think I can help fix it. For example, I noticed that a lot of dance studio owners want their kids to win at competition, and they feel terribly when their kiddos don't win.
[00:13:36] Okay, so I sit on the side of the judges table for hours and hours on end, and I sit in the break room with the judges. And I sit in an Uber with the judges. And I sit on an airplane with the judges, and we're talking.
[00:13:51] And I know what the judges want to see, and I know what they're tired of seeing.
[00:13:55] So studio owners want their dancelings to do well. I know what judges want their dancelings to do to do well. Perhaps I create a consultation service or a workshop.
[00:14:06] What judges want for studio owners. Like, this is actually a project that I've thought about doing before, but my hands are full. So I digress. Create the valuable thing by noticing a problem and solving it. If you have the skills to solve it immediately, great. If not, go train.
[00:14:23] Back in 2019, I was working with a coach. I noticed a lot of dancers and other people like me struggling with self doubt, struggling with burnout, struggling with imposter syndrome. And so I worked with a coach who helped me with those things and I was like, dang, Is there anybody else out there who does that specifically for dancers?
[00:14:41] Not yet. So I certified. I didn't have the tools at the time and now I'm a certified coach. And that is a service that I'm providing all year round that is filling my cup both feelings wise and financially. It's actually the only year round consistent income that I have.
[00:15:00] So there you go. Notice the problem, solve it either right now, if you can, or otherwise give yourself some training and give yourself the skills to solve it.
[00:15:10] That's step one, create the valuable thing.
[00:15:13] Step two, find the people who need the valuable thing.
[00:15:17] If you want to sell water to thirsty people, go to the desert. If you want to sell a workshop to competition owners who want their kids to do well at competition, go to a competition and talk to studio owners.
[00:15:29] Find the desert, y' all.
[00:15:31] Step three, this one's fun and terrifying. If you don't like talking about money, decide how much to charge. I know of some people, Riley Higgins, using AI to get a sense for what fair market price is for goods and services. Come on. Duh. It's not a bad place to start at all. But until you start making offers, you will never know how much people will pay for your valuable thing. So start somewhere, maybe with AI, and then go make offers.
[00:15:57] My advice, start high.
[00:15:59] You can 100% change that. If you get 100% no's. If you get a no from everyone, then that's your signal to come down.
[00:16:08] I don't remember where I heard this, but on the fringes of my memory I remember hearing that if you get a yes on 10% of your offers, then you've landed at the right price. That will be a sustainable price. That's high enough.
[00:16:23] Like if it's high enough, if only 10% of people can do it, it means you won't be overworked, but you will be well paid.
[00:16:30] Oddly enough, I usually wind up seeking a 50% yes return rate. That's just my preference.
[00:16:37] That means that the rate is lower, but that's just me. Like I value helping people more than I value being rich.
[00:16:45] That said, I do often think about what would my life be like if I stuck to that 10% rule.
[00:16:51] If I stuck to that 10% rule at a higher rate, I would be hustling less and making the same amount and maybe more able to work for free. Maybe more able to help people for free. So anyways, a whole lot of no's, the rate's too high. A whole lot of yeses. The rate's too low. Adjust accordingly.
[00:17:12] Step 4 Tell people tell people what it is. Tell people how much it costs, how they get it, where they get it. This part is easy to do and also easy to fuck up. You would be really surprised how important language is when defining your product or service.
[00:17:28] This is something a lot of people don't spend enough time doing. Defining and presenting what you offer takes time and tweaking. Be patient and fucking work at this. Try things out.
[00:17:39] Try different branding. Try different language. Try not an email blast, but a text.
[00:17:47] All the time. It's about what you're saying, but sometimes it's about where you're saying it. So there's a lot of room to learn.
[00:17:56] Tell people what it is you offer, how much it costs, and how they can get it. That's the bottom line.
[00:18:03] Step 5 here's the uncomfy part.
[00:18:06] Maybe ask people why they said no if they aren't buying it's for a reason. And then change one thing at a time, whether it was the pricing or the verbiage or the actual service itself. Until you're at your 10%, you have to get some feedback about why. If it's too expensive, then lower the price. If it's because they don't need it, you might need to go back to the drawing board or find the ones who do. So that's that.
[00:18:32] Finally, we've made it to the end. Look at this. Step 6 the actual charge part I use Quickbook Office for all my financial stuff. Invoicing is really simple. It's really easy for me to receive payment. I've had no problems. No problems with it ever. But good old fashioned Venmo totally works. I know a lot of people are more comfortable with cash app exchange. Maybe do both. Also, I have a checkbook I think some people still have that. You could receive money by check. You could receive actual cash.
[00:19:04] You could receive money a hundred different ways, but you have to be able to charge and see if you've been paid or not.
[00:19:10] That's why I love QuickBooks so much, because outstanding balances are really easy to identify and follow up on quickly.
[00:19:17] Guys, that's it. That's how dancers make money. And that's how people, all people, make money. We create value in the world, and then we exchange that value for dollars or currency.
[00:19:29] Whether you're doing that from an audition or being directly booked or creating the work yourself, it's all the same. We're creating value and then receiving an exchange for it. That's how dancers make money. That's how everyone makes money.
[00:19:43] I just can't believe I've never talked about this before.
[00:19:47] No matter how you spin it, y' all, making money is creating value. Finding the people who need the value, deciding how much to charge, making those offers, and then making tweaks to your plan and product even. And then learning and then trying again and then billing and then collecting. It's that simple.
[00:20:05] When I roll it off fast like that, though, it sounds complicated. I hope that this episode has inspired you to get out there and make some money. Because y' all, I have no interest in the starving artist story. I have no interest in that story, and I have no interest in that story becoming uncontested.
[00:20:24] I just don't. I don't want to live in that world, so I want to help you also. Not live in that world. Simply doesn't have to be that way.
[00:20:34] I was just about to say something about your hustle and I'm just now noticing how poetic my win was for this episode.
[00:20:40] I cannot wait for you to get out into the world and hustle both dance wise and make money my and make money wise. Go create value. Go. Leave a review or rating Turn on notifications Tell your friend about the podcast and of course, keep it very funky. This podcast was produced by me with the help of many Big big love to our executive assistant and editor, Riley Higgins. Our Communications manager is Fiona Small with additional support from Ori Vajadares. Our music is by Max Winnie, logo and brand design by Bree Reitz and if you're digging the podcast, leave a review and rating and please share. Also, if you want to connect with me and the many marvelous members of the Words that Move Me community, visit Words that Move Me dot com. If you're simply curious to know more about me and the work that I do outside side of this podcast, visit thedanawilson.com.
