215. Nina Flagg: Elevate Your Dance IQ

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Oh, my God. And thank you for teaching dance hall. I'm coming back. I'm coming back. Me and these Forrest Gump legs. Listen, I feel crazy in there. [00:00:12] Speaker B: You are fine. Hello. [00:00:18] Speaker A: Hello, my friend. I'm Dana. This is words that move me. That is wrist roll. The dog. And you are so lucky. I. You're so lucky you're in the right place at the exactly right time because there is no wrong time to hear this conversation with the one and only Nina Flagg. Y'all, I'm in full body chills just rethinking about the conversation. So for you to get to experience it for the first time, I'm jealous. Actively jealous of you, dog. Can I show you? I'm gonna show you. What's going on. Oh, look, you're leaving it. Emma. So this is my new favorite pillow. And it is also wrist roll's new favorite pillow. And it's slobbery in the middle, you little punk. But look how enticing it is. And it's so perfectly soft. It was a setup. I shouldn't have done that. Anyways, wins. We're going to talk a win. Okay, what am I celebrating today? I always start the podcast with wins. If you're new here, and I'm going to tell you that it was my distinguished pleasure and honor to be in collaboration with my very own mom, Stephanie Wilson. She was here in LA for the past several days working as a wardrobe head seamstress for a new seaweed sisters project that I am thrilled about and not going to tell you anything more. Okay, that's me. That's what's going well in my world. My mom, she's an artful seamstress. Mandy, how about you? What's going well in your world? Congratulations. I am so glad you're winning. You deserve a pillow. You should treat yourself. You know what's funny? This pillow is actually from a dog company because I bought the couch cover instead of buying a new couch because she peed all over the damn couch. And so I bought a couch cover from funny fuzzy. I think that's what they're called. Funny fuzzy. Anyways, you guys should make pillows that are less attractive to dogs, more attractive to humans. All right. And here we go. Nina Flagg, everyone. Seriously, a little levity is fine because this conversation goes directly to the heart of several very, very important issues. I will spend no more time. I will gift to you now the one, the only, Nina flag. I can't. I was gonna do some dance hall and I just can't. Wrist roll is around the corner, and Nina Flagg is sitting right there. Oh. After how many months of trying to planning. [00:03:14] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. [00:03:14] Speaker A: It's been a long time coming. Thank you for being here. [00:03:17] Speaker B: I'm so excited. [00:03:18] Speaker A: I'm thrilled. I love getting to talk to you and share space with you. I'm not gonna lie. It feels like robbery for you to be here and for us to not be dancing, because I was before. Okay. Riley and I were in the car, and it was like, my God, my God, Nina is so good. She's so good at dancing. She's really smart. She's, like, very smart. I feel really lucky to have you. And now I've set the bar super. [00:03:42] Speaker B: High, so good luck. Oh, my gosh. [00:03:45] Speaker A: Hi. Okay, so first tradition on the podcast, all my guests introduce themselves, let us know whatever it is you would like us to know about you. [00:03:53] Speaker B: So, okay. My name is Nina Flagg. I'm an la native. I'm a Capricorn. My first movement tradition was gymnastics. A lot of people don't know that, but I'm obsessed and in love with dance still and basically was introduced to dance in the womb. My mom is a dancer and a choreographer, and just. I just love dance like it is my life force. And, yeah, started with kind of classical, ballet, modern, you know, checking all those boxes, jazz, tap, west african, but then entered into the hip hop and street dance world, and that changed my life. Yes, that changed my life. So I'm a hip hop practitioner, but many things swirling around, but I'm a hip hop practitioner and kind of seeing the world through a hip hop consciousness. [00:04:47] Speaker A: Thank you for that. And I'm going to ask you some questions about that that may or may not be easy fun to answer. But I'm so grateful to have you here in conversation about this, especially after the recent events of a couple days of breaking at the Olympics. [00:05:01] Speaker B: Okay. [00:05:02] Speaker A: Okay. [00:05:03] Speaker B: Have not DVR. Haven't. So I'm trying to avoid any spoilers and any people have been asking, and I'm like, I'm gonna tell you after I get the full breadth of what is what. [00:05:16] Speaker A: What is what? [00:05:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:18] Speaker A: I will ask my questions broadly, okay. As to not ruin any surprises for you or you, listener, viewer. Okay. So you and I met. Our first professional overlap was in assisting the one and only Tony Basil, the Lord and savior. [00:05:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:34] Speaker A: Like Tony freaking Basil. [00:05:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Look at this. This is. Come on. [00:05:40] Speaker A: In case you didn't. [00:05:41] Speaker B: Come on. Come on. [00:05:43] Speaker A: Which I maybe should have saved this gem for when she's in your hot seat. Tony is the most mentioned person on the podcast. I'm pretty sure I talk about my acting teacher a lot and Marty Koudelka a lot. One of my other mentors. But you and I meth on a job with Tony Basil. I don't remember which one. Tv land awards, question mark. [00:06:01] Speaker B: Tv land awards. [00:06:02] Speaker A: Bette Midler auditions, though. Was that before or after tv land? Do you remember. [00:06:08] Speaker B: That was before tv land. Okay, so I want to say bet was before. [00:06:14] Speaker A: You and Tony share in this steel trap memory then, huh? [00:06:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:17] Speaker A: I'm impressed. [00:06:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I believe so. Yes, definitely before bet was before. [00:06:23] Speaker A: Okay. But you have also worked very closely with Debbie Allen. I have with Rennie Harris, I have with some legends of arts, and I don't use that word lightly, my friends. I think a lot of people are blowing the hot air these days. [00:06:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:38] Speaker A: Like, calling someone a legend is like a. Is like just cause we don't know what other word to use sometimes. Like, we say, oh, my God, legendary. Oh, you're a legend. [00:06:45] Speaker B: An iconic. [00:06:46] Speaker A: An iconic, yes. But like, in the history books, in places where history of dance is taught, these names are what you will find. I want to know from you as I explore for myself, what does it mean all around to work for and support and be that close to people like them. [00:07:12] Speaker B: First of all, thumbs up. [00:07:13] Speaker A: First of all, thumbs up. [00:07:14] Speaker B: Thumbs up. Yeah, thumbs up. Because what it does for the dance IQ, those are things that can't be taught in an institution. They can't be taught in any course or class. Or the experience that you get from being around people who are steeped in the tradition of entertaining in a different way than this generation is like that full, comprehensive, triple threat. How to capture an audience aside from just the dance and embodied practice that you're getting lessons on living and the human condition. So in that sense, it's always this. Do you come in contact with some crazy characters and some crazy stories and things? Of course. [00:07:58] Speaker A: Some high pressure moments? [00:08:00] Speaker B: Some high pressure moments. Like super high. [00:08:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:03] Speaker B: But it changed my life, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I would do it all again. To be around those people and those figures and to still be in contact with some of them, some who are still here. When I think about Tina Turner, Miss Tina Turner, that changed my life, hands down. When people say, who have you worked with that single handedly? Like, it's a moment where you say, my life is different now. That would be Miss Tina. [00:08:29] Speaker A: There's before and then there's after. Yeah. So I'm already on the verge of tears hearing you say that? [00:08:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's a big one. [00:08:37] Speaker A: And that was via the arc. Like, Toni is the arc. She's, like, collecting all the dancers and bringing them with her along through weathering all the various storms that our entertainment industry has been through. But you worked with Tina on her. Was it her last world tour that. [00:08:58] Speaker B: She did on the choreography team? Tony brought me on, and we went from Miss Bett to Miss Tina, and it was one of those. We were working on Beth's show, and then, like, when Tina called, but called Tony, and then, like, at lunch, we were walking on the Sony lot, and Toni was like, I got a call. I can't tell you what it is, but it's big. Are you on board? And I was like, yeah, for you, ma'am, anything. Yeah. It's like, I don't even need to know what it is. I was like, yeah. And that's how. Same thing with bet. It was like, so I got a call for something, but you'd have to move to New York for a while. Is that a problem? I was like, not at all. I love traveling. And she was like, I can't tell you what it is. I was like, it's fine. [00:09:39] Speaker A: There are a handful of people in my Rolodex that I would trust that blindly, and she is absolutely one of them. [00:09:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:46] Speaker A: Okay. Could you distill for us from this privileged position of being, like, elbows distance from a tina with a Tony, with a Debbie with a Rennie? What are your big takeaways when you close your eyes and are like, ooh, that's the lesson. That's the one. Can you share a few of those? I'm so selfishly asking for that, but how lucky for anyone listening who's so far away from people like that to get to know and get to learn. [00:10:17] Speaker B: Yeah. So since we're on the. I'll just stay on this trajectory with Tony. From Tony. The compositional elements that I use to choreograph and to teach and to hear music, I will say hands down, that has been Tony Basil. In terms of this transformation, my mom, who's a dancer, Karen McDonald and choreographer, I mean, that was my first introduction into dance, and she had her own company. And so in terms of choreographing, that, of course, was my first example. [00:10:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:10:52] Speaker B: But when we talk about the street dance world and bringing in this different language and marrying the languages of something, that was, I felt, my generation and then how to succeed, successfully marry that with classical ballet and all these different traditions, that was Tony and down to the little. I hope Tony doesn't mind this, but down to anyone who works with Tony sees. Down to the soldiers, the toy soldiers. [00:11:17] Speaker A: The soldiers for formations. [00:11:18] Speaker B: The formations, the toy soldiers. Not letting you get away without addressing every part of the music. That I will say has been a game changer in terms of developing my ear as a choreographer, as a teacher and practitioner. But that has been my takeaway, like, addressing everything, giving equal attention to everything that's happening in front of you, deep research, and, like, how all of those things come together. So the accountability, I would say, is a huge thing that I got from Tony, and I'm still using and still living and still teaching as part of my practice. And then from Miss Allen. Like, I met Miss Allen when I was. I worked with Miss Allen when I was 13. That was our first professional interaction for the Oscars. That was the year that they did Aladdin, and she hired me as a young gymnast and dancer, and that was surreal. First of all, I'd worked professionally in the concert dance world, just doing, like, appearances and projects with my mom. But then to be in the commercial world and it be on that big of a stage, a stage like that, literally and figuratively, lots of eyeballs, it was. And to be doing that with adult dancers, so it wasn't just a thing. We were young, but we had to really hold our own. You know, we were a specialty act in that we were. She was hiring rhythmic gymnasts and contortionists and young dancers, but we were. There was a huge cast of adult dancers and dancers that I grew up watching and idolizing and idolizing. So to be on set with them and no one's treating you like kids. No one's like, oh, little. Little Kamala. Kamala's my middle name. Don't call me Kamala, anyone. If you try me. Kamala's only for my family and people who really know me well. But Nina's my first name, so it wasn't like, oh, little kamala, you're here. It's like, get the leg up. Like, come on, what are you doing? [00:13:17] Speaker A: You felt that even as such a young person, you felt that it wasn't spoken. [00:13:21] Speaker B: It was like it was in the air. And that taught me the distinction between professional and personal. Like, when you get in this space, you're working and you're not a kid, it's just deliver. And so miss Allen really seeing, especially a woman of color, a black woman, delivering on that scale, that was to see all the moving parts and how she was directing that and making it happen, along with Frances Morgan, the incomparable Francis Morgan, who was part of her team and just so lovely to us, and an iconic dancer in her own right, who I grew up idolizing and watching. So to see that and to have input, there was some input that we had as being artists to be included. [00:14:06] Speaker A: In the conversations that are happening there. [00:14:09] Speaker B: It was like, okay, so what else can we do? And I was like, what if we do a front walk over off of the stairs? And it was like, that kind of thing. It was like, okay, this is the high stakesmiths of it. It was fast paced. We had hazard pay. I learned about hazard pay for the first time. I was 13, at 13. Cause we worked with Pyro. There were huge torches all over the stage for Aladdin, and we were in body paint, head to toe, and so highly flammable. [00:14:34] Speaker A: No? [00:14:34] Speaker B: Highly flammable. And that's the first time that I learned about hazard pay and that kind of thing. I mean, it was surreal. You could feel the heat. You know how pyro is on stage. [00:14:45] Speaker A: But when you're young, I have my cheeks vibrating. [00:14:47] Speaker B: Like, when you're young, you're like, oh, this is. Oh, this is serious. And I'm so excited to be here with you. So I know I'm talking so much. [00:14:57] Speaker A: This is wonderful. We might have to. This might be a two parter, because I'm feeling you, and I can go, and I want to hear all the stories. [00:15:04] Speaker B: Okay, so this. And so that was another crazy moment because my father, who also works in the industry, Valdez Valdez Flag, who a lot of dancers are most famous stage. [00:15:14] Speaker A: Manager for being just like you are. Cool, calm, collected, kind, and gentle, but professional. On it. On it. [00:15:24] Speaker B: Yeah, that's definitely. Can you see that in the DNA? It's in the DNA. So, growing up on sets, but being behind the camera to being in front of the camera, that was a different transition, too. And so I was able to appreciate that. But Miss Allen is a straight shooter. She's also a Capricorn. [00:15:45] Speaker A: Yeah, we were just talking that some of our favorite dancers are Capricorns. [00:15:49] Speaker B: Yeah, she's a straight shooter, and we'll share information. That's really what I work with her then. And then right before I graduated from college, she hired me to teach at the Debbie Allen dance academy when it first opened, and so I was teaching. We were doing summer intensives. I was traveling, and she would always share information. [00:16:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:07] Speaker B: And that was big to me, too, that she wasn't gatekeeping. Gatekeeping. And so that was a huge one that she does. She'll do this. She'll give you nuggets and send you on your way. And so many of us have those stories where she'll just drop a little nugget with you and then you see her again later and she'll check back in and say, that's special. And so there were some things she told me before I graduated, what to study, some courses to take, just something. And then when I saw her again, it's like, hey, how did this. What about that? And just some business things, too. Just little nuggets. So dropping those nuggets and being in command of the space, I really got that from Miss Allen and then Renee Harris. That completely changed my life. [00:16:52] Speaker A: That's you falling in love with street dance. [00:16:54] Speaker B: That's me falling in love with street dance. And that's me for the first time, really studying it and understanding it from a cultural perspective. The history. I didn't know the history before that. It was a social practice. But when I got to Rennie, I really had to start studying. And he was a stickler for the history. When we danced with his company, you had to do what we call lecture demonstrations. You had to know the information, the history of each different technique. You had to demonstrate that. You had to be able to teach to talk about it. The icons, the figures, the game changers in each cultural practice and technique. That is the reason that I was able to enter into the world of academia, which is where I am now. And it's solely because of him. And there's so many of us who danced with his company who are now teaching in higher learning, education. It's because of that tradition of not just being the dancer, but also you have to be able to educate and push the culture forward by being able to speak about it and engage others about it. [00:17:58] Speaker A: And you sought Rennie out, right? Like you went to Philly. [00:18:02] Speaker B: This is the craziest story. I was at UCLA. I went to UCLA. I didn't major in dance, but I was there and dancing while I was there and started a dance company while I was at UCLA, which is a whole other. When, you know, when you're young, you don't think about anything. You just do. [00:18:15] Speaker A: You just go do it like, okay. [00:18:17] Speaker B: I'm in school, I think a hip hop dance company, I think I will do that. [00:18:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:20] Speaker B: So I did that while I was there, had auditions and everything. It was crazy. And every year, I won't say every year, but there were multiple years while I was at UCLA that people kept saying, there's this hip hop company here. You have to go see them. They're at Royce hall. You have to go see them. [00:18:33] Speaker A: Nice. [00:18:34] Speaker B: And I was like, okay. Could never get tickets. It was always sold. [00:18:37] Speaker A: Sold out. [00:18:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:38] Speaker A: That does not shop. [00:18:38] Speaker B: My mom, everyone, there's this hip hop company. I can't remember the name, but Mikko told me, and Mikko danced in my mother's company. [00:18:46] Speaker A: Okay? [00:18:46] Speaker B: Grew up dancing with Mikko, seeing her in class and stuff. And we just knew that Mikko moved away. She met a man. They fell in love. She was like, I'm relocating to Philadelphia. You were like, who is this man? My mom's like, he's a choreographer. He's a hip hop dancer, right? No name, nothing. [00:19:03] Speaker A: Just this enigma. [00:19:04] Speaker B: And I'm like, okay, well, like, who's Mikko moving for? Like, this is. [00:19:07] Speaker A: This must be big. [00:19:08] Speaker B: I'm like, yeah. So I graduate a few months after graduating from UCLA, my mom says Mikko reached out, and she said, you know, the guy she's with, her boyfriend, is looking for some female dancers. You know, he has a hip hop company. It's an all male hip hop company, predominantly all male, known for being all male in the earlier stages. But there were some iconic and influential women that danced with the company for certain projects, but known as an all male hip hop company. That was the thing. And so she's like, you know, he's looking for women with different backgrounds in terms of dance. So he's in Philly. So I'm like, okay, well, let's just. [00:19:48] Speaker A: Help me get fresh out of school now. [00:19:50] Speaker B: Fresh out of school. So I'm teaching at the Debbie Allen dance academy. Just graduated. I'd already said this was like, my kind of mantra when people said, what are you gonna do when you graduate? I said, I'm gonna tour the world doing what I love and getting paid for it. And they're like, oh, great, you booked a tour. And I'm like, no, no. You don't understand. No, but I said, no, but that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna see the world doing what I love, getting paid for it. [00:20:14] Speaker A: Thank you for allowing yourself, for giving yourself permission to be that broad, yet non accepting of anything else. Like, the umbrella that you gave yourself is broad. But your vision was singular. [00:20:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that you love it, and I love it, but people were not loving that. [00:20:30] Speaker A: People were not loving that. [00:20:32] Speaker B: Adults were like, literally, tell me to my face. Yeah. They were like, you're so naive. They were like, oh, that's and literally got told that, like, oh, you're so naive. I was like, it's like, okay, so anyway, few months, get the call. My mom's like, so why don't you just go and see? I'm like, check it out. I'll just go and see. And, you know, I'm helping Mikko out. I'm just gonna go and see who this guy is, right? Get there. I just auditioned, I want to say, for MSA or block. I ended up signing a block later, years later. But it might have been like, this cattle call, audition for MSA, maybe get on the plane the next day, go to rehearsal. Rehearsal is crazy. We're doing floor work. Prior to that, I was not proficient in floor work, in hip hop floor work. I had just gotten my hair done, like, hair braided fresh. I was like, we're getting on the. What? Like, I wrapped my hair in rehearsal. I was like, no, I'm not getting my hair dirty, right? Came home from rehearsal, I felt like I wanted to, like, get into a body cast. Yes. I was sore. I was dirty. I was like, I'm going home. The person I was rooming with, the dancer, I was. I was like, not for me. I said, this is not for me. This is crazy. I'm going home. And she was like, you should give it another day. I was like, this is crazy. I'm going home. She was like, just give it another day. Give it another day. And that was the audition process. It was like workshopping for a week. [00:21:50] Speaker A: He didn't do because auditioning, you said you went into rehearsal. [00:21:53] Speaker B: He just starts put. So it's like, you just start doing work, formulating work vocabulary, and you just kind of see whether it's a fit. That's how he's always done his auditions. And so for a week, I stayed there. It was crazy. And on the third day, there was a breakthrough that happened, and I just started to align. I understood. I understood him better. I just. Something started to come together, and I was like, this is something. This is interesting. So for almost a year, I flew back and forth, and, like, every other month, I would fly in. He would workshop. He was doing a new work. He would workshop this work on. There were six girls at the time, and that was the beginning of my training with him. Now, all the while, he's talking about, we're going to tour. We're going to go out of the country. We're going to. And I'm like, sure. Like, even my roommate at the time who stayed, I'm like, this guy, he's selling us a dream. But it's fine. We'll keep doing it. Like, I'm sure we're not gonna go anywhere. And so we were. It was just the women, the guys, the company members. He kept us separate. I didn't know that it was just the women. He was training us well. Now, what I know is we weren't ready to be with the guys yet, but they were traveling. They were doing a show called Roman Jewels. It was a hip hop adaptation of Romeo and Juliet. Wildly successful Michael Jackson snuck in at Royce hall to see the show. That's how, like, everyone wanted to see what this thing was. So I would hear the guys, like, always, oh, the guys are on the road. The guys aren't here. And I was like, and these guys, I was like, who are these guys? Are they ever gonna come? Like. And so one day, I think we were going to, like Apap. And we were at the office, and the guys come through, and every now and then, they would come, like, peek into rehearsal. They'd stop by the studio, Philodenko, where we were rehearsing, and we'd, like, peek in for, like, ten minutes, and they leave, just, like, to see what we were doing. We were like, oh, okay, you know, whatever. And the day that we were going to go to New York to go to ApAP, the guys came through with all their suitcases, and I said, oh, where are the guys going? And Renee said, they're going to Paris. And I said, we're going to Paris. To do what? And he said, roman, jules is still on tour. And I said, what did you say? And he said, roman, jules is still on tour. And I said, you're the person that did roman jewels? And he said, yeah. And he looked over, he said, if you want to watch some footage of the company, here are all the tapes. And it was like, roman jewels rep, like, rows and rows of video footage of repertory. So I said, you're. He said, rennie Harris. I said, but you're the person I've been trying to, like, get a ticket to go to the shows. When I was in college, you didn't. [00:24:42] Speaker A: Know he was the same person. [00:24:43] Speaker B: I didn't know he was the same person. Incredible. I was the only one who didn't know. All the other women knew they were there because they didn't. [00:24:50] Speaker A: This never come up. [00:24:51] Speaker B: It never came. I was the only one. [00:24:53] Speaker A: Cause you're the one just talking about your bodies and the material and how you're hanging on. [00:24:57] Speaker B: And I was the only one from the West coast. [00:24:58] Speaker A: That's true. That's true. [00:24:59] Speaker B: They were. Everybody else from East coast, they knew. Yeah, this was before social media was big like that. So on the west Coast, I just didn't know. I just didn't know. And I wasn't in that world, and. [00:25:10] Speaker A: He wasn't leading with that. [00:25:12] Speaker B: He laughed and I said, your. And he just kind of laughed. [00:25:16] Speaker A: What a moment. [00:25:18] Speaker B: And I said, I thought you were just kind of, like, bullshitting us when you were like, we're gonna go on tour. And he was like, really? [00:25:24] Speaker A: And I said, yeah, nina, this reads like a dance movie, but better, like. [00:25:31] Speaker B: And then the guys came, and then it was like, oh, shit, this is real. We have work to do. Yeah, it was real. And it was the first Terry Brooklyn. Terry was the first person that I ever took a house class from. It was company class. [00:25:46] Speaker A: Oh, that's a gift. [00:25:48] Speaker B: Yeah. So every day we had company class and someone new would teach. This is when skill methods, they were at the height of all heights. Abstract flips flee. Every. People were coming in, I'm tearing like this. It was like, wait a minute. This is crazy. And then it started. It was like, boom. And it was on. And it was on. [00:26:10] Speaker A: What an incredible vortex. Like, what a crazy time for you to land on all three of these timelines. Nina is so wildly cool. And for you to be sharing your stories here today, I am wrapped in chills and so stoked to be hearing this firsthand. I didn't know. I didn't know that. I knew that you went to study with him. I did not know that you were a part of the company. And you guys did go on to tour all over the place. [00:26:40] Speaker B: All over the place, absolutely. And I was with the company from 2001 to 2008 is when I did my last show, is when I stopped to pretty much focus on being with Tony and Bette. [00:26:52] Speaker A: A lot of industry work, a lot of building, contributing and building work for other people. [00:26:58] Speaker B: Yeah. And in between that, because I was still on tour, but coming back here when, like, in between our tour dates, so I was kind of bi coastal and back and forth. So still doing some commercial work. And that's when I was working with Fatima for a while and then going back out on tour. So it was kind of like this world that consisted of concert dance, a little commercial dance, still teaching, still coming back off tour, and then going back to Debbie's and then teaching and then going back. It was. It was a pretty wild time in the best way, but it didn't feel like that. It just felt like, this was the plan to just do all of the things, but I had no idea what it was gonna look like. And you had a plan. You had that big, broad umbrella and met Toni before all of that, so met Toni my last year in college, met Tony in 2000. She came to a dance arts academy, which is no longer there, but on. [00:27:51] Speaker A: Yes. Oh, she loved that studio. [00:27:52] Speaker B: It was an amazing studio. [00:27:54] Speaker A: It was an amazing studio. [00:27:55] Speaker B: We did a. [00:27:56] Speaker A: The smell. I can still smell the smell. [00:27:58] Speaker B: You can smell it? Yeah. It was. That space was beyond. [00:28:02] Speaker A: I took. It's where we rehearsed for. It's Toni's favorite place to rehearse. It's where she auditions all the time, all the people. But I took a couple ballet classes there that felt like. I really don't like the New York versus La conversation at all, but they felt like steps on Broadway, New York City ballet, like you're dancing next to people and they felt like that you felt like you had to pull up and you had to know the routine. You can like, I haven't found that in LA since then, no offense. Nicole Harlan. I love your class. I love your class so much. But it was the space. [00:28:42] Speaker B: It was the space. [00:28:43] Speaker A: It wasn't the teacher, unfortunately, I do not actually remember who it was, who I was taking class from, but the environment, the people, and the space is what made me feel like I need to pull up. [00:28:55] Speaker B: It was so. It was an incredible space. The culture of the space was. And so many amazing practitioners came through there and, yeah, it was a. It was a concert. It was a studio concert that my mom had helped organize as a fundraiser for the space. Wow. Carla, the owner, earlier on, we did fundraising concert, studio concerts, and I choreographed a piece and gathered some dancers, a hip hop piece, and did it. And afterwards, Tonique, she was like, I. [00:29:25] Speaker A: Need to know you. [00:29:26] Speaker B: Who are you? [00:29:27] Speaker A: Who are you? [00:29:28] Speaker B: And I didn't know. I knew who she was, but not the full. I didn't know. [00:29:32] Speaker A: You didn't completely know? [00:29:34] Speaker B: I didn't know. Well, you can know but then not know. [00:29:39] Speaker A: No. Like, yeah. [00:29:40] Speaker B: Cause so many people know that but don't know. [00:29:42] Speaker A: They don't know. They don't know that she's 80 and will roast you. She will out dance you on any day. On any day. And I don't care who you are that's listening. You is all people on any day. On any day. [00:29:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:56] Speaker A: Because she hasn't stopped. She has continued learning, she's continued practicing. She has continued to remember and recall the people, places, things, songs. [00:30:08] Speaker B: Yes. [00:30:09] Speaker A: And we are so lucky to have her and so lucky to have shared in some early times with her, which to kind of circle back what you learned from Tony as far as composition, structure, how to actually build dance, and care for the building of dance. I wanted to add only one piece that stands out to me as a gift from her. And that is the expectation that there will be three, four, five versions, no less than. No less than Abcdef. [00:30:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:45] Speaker A: And that you, the assistant, will need to be able to recall all five versions and not be wrong. [00:30:51] Speaker B: All of them. [00:30:52] Speaker A: All versions. [00:30:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:54] Speaker A: And I thought for some time in my young, surely there's a better way days that that could be avoided. And the older and older I get, the more I realize options are the answer. You thought you had the answer by having one thing, and I'm telling you, it's not. You must be prepared. You must be prepared. Now, I remember receiving a phone call from her about one of said options. Maybe it was c. I think it was option C. At three in the morning, Nina, she said, remember the kick line in option C? I was thinking, it. It can't go passe Batma. It has to go Batma, Tondu Batma. And here's why. And she wasn't wrong. [00:31:39] Speaker B: No. [00:31:40] Speaker A: And I had to, like, write that down and fall back asleep. And she doesn't stop working. [00:31:46] Speaker B: But it's also having the intuition. [00:31:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And the attention to detail, the thinking through. She has a sick intuition. And knowing, as she learned from bet, as she learned from Tina, a sense of drama and storytelling and what will work and what will. Nothing. She has call them instincts. But also she knows. [00:32:07] Speaker B: She knows for facts. She knows for fact what will work and what will. And you see it play out. You see it play out, like with Bette. You see, because, like you're saying, you're thinking, surely we don't need a fourth version of this. And then, like clockwork, someone comes in, musical director Bette wants to see the other version of this. This, this, this. And Tony's like, we have it. And I'm like, we actually do have it. Like, how did you know we were. [00:32:31] Speaker A: Wait, hold on. Do I have it? Do I have to? [00:32:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it was like, we have it. And then you go like, okay, do I have it? We have it. [00:32:37] Speaker A: We have it. But do I have it? [00:32:39] Speaker B: But it was like that thing of, like, being able to deliver and anticipating that that was gonna be the ask. But when I tell you, like clockwork, there were so many moments with bet where it was like, we need to do this version. And she decides to do this, and I'm like, really? Are you sure? And then it happens and you're like, got it. That's why you're you. And so that intuition to know what's needed before it's asked is invaluable. Yeah, that's the dance genius. Yeah, that's the dance genius. So being able to think ahead and then create for all of the moments that could be possible. [00:33:18] Speaker A: Yes. [00:33:19] Speaker B: That's like. And do well. [00:33:21] Speaker A: And so hold all of that in the balance of time, budget, personality, bandwidth. [00:33:27] Speaker B: Like, say personality again for the people in the back. Personality. Personality. That's a whole. [00:33:35] Speaker A: It's huge, right? What a front row seat we have to the full spectrum of human existence. It is rich, isn't it? It is so rich. How lucky are we? It's riveting. [00:33:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:48] Speaker A: How lucky are we to be around such fascinating types? Yeah. Okay, so those are wonderful stories. Thank you for sharing. These are wonderful people. I. Oh, man. Riches. The riches. You have listed a couple of your resume bullets, but I think at this point it's possible the number of universities you have dropped in on or taught for may outweigh, like, resume points. Like, you transitioned into the academia space when? How? [00:34:24] Speaker B: Well, earlier than 2010, through Rennie again, he was needing to leave from UCLA and tour, and I came in to teach with it for him and sub. So I was doing that early on, before they even had the space. That is the space when it was across the street, down the street. Anyway. And then 2010, teaching my own course, nice. Own courses at UCLA. So going back to my alma mater to teach, even though it was in the world arts and cultures program. And there was a, that didn't even exist when I was a student there. Okay, there was the dance there. There was a dance program and I was just auditing classes while I was. My major was sociology and communications, and so I was auditing dance classes, but then that program came into existence later. [00:35:08] Speaker A: Okay. [00:35:08] Speaker B: Renee was teaching in that program. I was subbing for him early on, but 2010 is when I really went into there on my own, meaning being invited into the space to teach my own courses and curriculum as a hip hop practitioner. And that prior to that, I had done some guests, faculty and guest choreography things for LMU, Bennington College in Vermont. Some like spot dates where I would go and teach residencies and things like that, usually through Rennie. But yeah, 2010 kind of kicked it off in terms of going into the space as my own practitioner and own person, but solely because of what Renee had the foundation he had set for us as educators. [00:35:54] Speaker A: So that's also a gift. The same way that Debbie gave you nuggets and gave you. She, first of all speaks in sound bites. She speaks in quotes. I don't know how it's even possible, but I've listened to her talk in casual settings, in formal settings, on a microphone, and, like, you know, under her breath, and all of them are sound bites. So. Okay, so Reni gave you planted pathways, created pathways for you to slide into roles of tutelage in universities, and that was 14 years ago. What would you say has changed the most in collegiate dance programs since then? [00:36:35] Speaker B: Okay, well, it depends on where you're going. So I was at UCLA and Calarts and then piloting the hip hop program at Connecticut college in New London, and then I came back for CalArts and then now at USC. And, you know, what's changed the most, I think, is the value system. And let me take that back. What's changed the most is the desire to change the value system and the hierarchy. [00:37:06] Speaker A: It's still happy to hear that. I'll take the desire to change. [00:37:10] Speaker B: It's the desire. [00:37:11] Speaker A: It's the starting point. [00:37:12] Speaker B: It's the starting point. And so early on, you know, this thing of bringing hip hop into these spaces, it was progressive, it was new. It was still something that was complicated for some universities who were really steeped in certain traditions. But then it became, you have to check that box in order to get the students and to appeal to a prospective student. So it had to be that you had a hip hop offering, but the value system and the conversation around it between practitioners, you were siloed. And most places, when you were teaching hip hop earlier on, you were siloed. You were, like the only hip hop teacher. It was kind of an island. You didn't have a peer to bounce ideas off of. They would kind of come in. They may not have known much about it, and just said, okay, go. We trust you based on your resume. Just do your thing. [00:38:02] Speaker A: Please take this. Just. [00:38:04] Speaker B: And that was, at first, you're like, great. I can freedom, carte blanche. I can do whatever I want. And then it was like, but wait a minute. I'm not in conversation. The way that I had to stay in conversation was speaking through my classical ballet channel to other practitioners on faculty or speaking through my contemporary and trying to parallel it with hip hop so that they could understand that it's not too far from what you're doing in terms of, there's terminology, there's culture, there's techniques. [00:38:33] Speaker A: Technique. [00:38:34] Speaker B: That was the biggest thing to demystify. We're not, like, partying. It's technique. We're not just jumping around. It's technique. [00:38:43] Speaker A: Oh, nina, you were the perfect person to be in that position then to be able to speak the other languages well enough to make. To get that message across the other movement languages and also the other languages languages. [00:38:59] Speaker B: Because otherwise, I think it was not. I think it was hard for them to respect practitioners, hip hop practitioners, because they felt like they didn't have the same dance IQ because they hadn't gone down the same path. And so when you're able to speak their language as well as your own language, then there's a kind of like, oh, okay. And so the ear becomes different. They start actually listening to what you're saying. Like, okay, well, you. You know, a little, you know, about what I do, you know, seems like you have a global picture of the dance world, which is different, maybe, than what we thought or what we were used to. And so that became kind of my niche, being able to speak all of those languages and pull people and make them interested in what it is that we do. [00:39:43] Speaker A: Interested enough to lean in and learn. [00:39:44] Speaker B: More, to stop by and watch class, to sit in and, you know, can I come sit? Sure. Come on in. See? Oh, wow. This is interesting. This is. I was also talking about that in my course. [00:39:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that's so interesting. To watch class, to watch the training and teaching of the thing versus to watch it performed or lived, that is huge. [00:40:08] Speaker B: That, because most people check in as for the spectacle of what hip hop theater and hip hop concert dance is definitely. [00:40:15] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:40:16] Speaker B: Make me feel good. Make me feel happy or dangerous or. [00:40:21] Speaker A: Help me feel cultured and worldly. Ready, set, go. [00:40:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And if it's not what they expect, it's like, oh, well, that was different. Where's the, you know, the head spins? Where's the, you know. So having to break that too, I think as hip hop practitioners, through that trajectory, and you're asking what has changed, it's breaking that conversation and expectation that we are here to close the show and be the finale, because we're gonna like, let's go out on a high note. Everybody needs to feel good. And it's like, wait a minute. [00:40:53] Speaker A: I'm so glad you said that. [00:40:54] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:40:55] Speaker A: I'm so glad you said that. [00:40:56] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:40:58] Speaker A: Oh, I'm so glad you said that. [00:41:00] Speaker B: The finale and hip hop will close the show. And hip hop will close the show. It's like, well, maybe nothing, maybe not. Because we're maybe not going to do the rah rah cheerleading thing. Maybe we're going to tell stories, right. That reflect. [00:41:12] Speaker A: Let me show you the palette. Let me show you what actually falls under this broad umbrella. [00:41:17] Speaker B: And that is something else that Renee taught me, like, don't. You don't have to do what the audience expects you to do, expects us to do. As hip hop practitioners, we're here to tell stories and bring the humanity to it. And these complicated conversations that we have as human beings, we then bring to the work in the stage. So. And if they don't like it, kind of. [00:41:39] Speaker A: Let's be real. The honesty of that situation is that that will not always be a high note. In fact, the things that we need to say are a very pointed note. Yeah. Wow. [00:41:51] Speaker B: That has changed the most, I think, the conversation around the relationship to hip hop and its derivative forms in the institutional space. And for me, I always say it's about bringing culture to the institution and not institutionalizing the culture. [00:42:09] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:42:09] Speaker B: So we have to. And it's a balance. We can't bring everything, or I can't say we can't, but we maybe don't bring everything that we would in the club or cultural or street dance practice. Right. There is that balance that you're in a certain space, but you gotta bring enough of it that we are still honoring the culture, and we're not watering it down to make it palatable for people who may not even be invested in it. Right. So we have to, you know, being a purist is not always a bad thing. Purists, in the sense of the energy of a thing. I do believe in being a purist in terms of the energy and the soul of the thing, in terms of the embodied technique, then there's room for innovation and all of that, you know, Pierce, it keeps us locked in. [00:42:54] Speaker A: If we send, and there's a shelf life to that, if it can't grow or evolve or be allowed to change, then it won't last forever. [00:43:03] Speaker B: But if we can keep the energy pure, and you teach that. So, for me, that firstly has to do with making sure that, you know, the history, right, of a thing and the energy that birthed the culture. So we talk about the energy that births hip hop and street dance practices, really knowing what that is so that you can articulate it, but being able to parallel it to a universal experience. So, like, when, if I teach an intro to hip hop course in a higher learning setting, I'll talk about the origins of hip hop culture and all of the energies, what was happening socioeconomically, what was happening politically. And this idea of persevering, overcoming, feeling like you're marginalized and not being heard, feeling like you've been overlooked. And then I then say, yes, work, okay, cosign. Right, confirmation and say, if you've ever felt like that in your life, if you felt overlooked, if you felt like you've persevered, if you felt doubted, if you felt like you have been on a certain side of injustice, if you felt I frustrated, if you felt like you needed an outlet, then you are able to tap into the energy that birthed hip hop culture. And in that sense, that becomes your entry point into the practice, so that you don't feel like you're an outsider, you don't feel like you're appropriating, but you're finding an energetic entry point into an embodied practice and a cultural space. And if you start with the feeling first, the feeling is the very thing that's going to carry you. Even when you're struggling with the technique, even when you feel awkward, if you can tap into the energy. That is the thing that people are attracted to about hip hop and street dance. They think they're attracted to the signifiers. If I walk a certain way, talk a certain way, dress a certain way, that that's hip hop, that's street dance. It's the energy that the world is trying to capture. It's the energy that people have taken and monetized and used for everything, to sell everything, because it's something that creates an ire, creates a feeling inside of you that is celebratory, yes, but it also is empowering. And people want to feel empowered. They want to feel heard, they want to feel understood. And people want to feel a little rebellious, and sometimes a lot rebellious. And so all of those things, the energy, to me, is the most relatable part. And that goes beyond race and ethnicity and gender. It's not what it used to be in terms of. We wanted to keep outsiders there because most times they were disrespecting the culture. That changed at a certain point, and we started to do this. As long as you respect it, we started to do this. And so to kind of deconstruct that thing of, you can't come over here unless you look like this. You have to say, but what do you replace that with? Okay, if you're not this, then you can come over here because of this, right? Because of this. Because you're willing to understand and figure out what your connection is. To the culture so that you're pouring into it and not just taking from it. So when you're talking about preserving the energy or tapping into the energy, you have to make it personal for people. You have to make it personal in order for them to tap in. And then you also have to invite them to spaces where it's happening. We are in studio culture. Right. And so you can take a class, you can take a, let's say a house class for ten years and never understand the feeling of being at a house club. And you could go to a house club and in one night understand what you've been trying to grasp in ten years from taking a class. So you gotta invite people into the space too, because you can't, you can only transcend the space, but so much you have to go to the thing to experience the energy of the thing. So if there's people in the room that can also, they know what that energy is and can kind of pour into that a bit, then I think those are, you have enough ingredients to authentically tap into the energy and preserve and honor the energy of a thing in a room, in a studio space. Right. But, yeah, I think it's. I'm all about energy. That's the, that's the metaphysical and spiritual aspect of dance that is very much a part of me and still through my mom, that is when we talk about things, the takeaways. My mom is, and I will use the word iconic in the dance world, I will, because you got to give people their flowers. And I've talked about all these other people, but I do have to speak about my mom and all of these people. Bette Miller took my mom's class before I ever worked with her. She came in her tight, Toni, told her, you need to go take this woman's class. And she came one day and just took my mom's class. I was still in college and I was like, that's. I know that's better. [00:47:56] Speaker A: That's incredible. The people that I've speaks to all three women, actually. [00:48:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:04] Speaker A: So I love to hear that. That is a beautiful story. [00:48:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Dance is spiritual, art is spiritual, and. [00:48:15] Speaker A: It is the responsibility of a teacher, of educators in higher education spaces and otherwise to. I think a lot of people love to talk about context when they talk about history, but I think it's less common for them to speak about energy. And I think especially young people understand energy more than they understand me trying to talk about the Vietnam War and why that's important when it comes to locking. Yes, but to say these words. Have you ever felt outnumbered? Have you ever felt unseen? Have you ever felt voiceless? That really gives somebody an in. That is. [00:48:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:54] Speaker A: I'm rocked. I'm rocked. Nina. I have nothing to add. I have nothing to add or say other than that you are a gift. [00:49:01] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you. [00:49:03] Speaker A: Woof. Thank you. How lucky are we to have you and you don't know it. Cause you haven't seen the Olympics yet, but you just spoke more poetically to, like, I think a big conversation that's happening around, specifically the women's breaking. You just spoke more directly to an issue than anyone I've heard. Who's seen the issue is speaking in circles about a thing, and I think you just addressed it really beautifully. I won't say much more, but we can have a follow up conversation if you want, after you've seen what you're talking about right now. [00:49:36] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. [00:49:37] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, I think I had a question coming in, and now I'm certain of my answer, which is, what is the center circle of academia? If there's a Venn diagram that's like, academia and living dance. Living, breathing the culture of dance. What is that? Who gets to be there? And, like, is that a real thing? Like, can you be both? I remember specifically early on being kind of. You might call it, like, intellectual, shamed, or, like, kind of bullied for using big words and being a person who likes to read and really loved school when I was in. When I was in dance class and early in my experience in laden. And I would love for dancers to empower themselves to be educated specifically on dance. But I know many of us just love a good class and a hot eight count. Okay, but I'm just, like, wondering, who are the people that get to live there, that get to learn from these rich educators like yourself and the people that you've had, you know, encountered on your timeline? Because as dance grows and becomes more popular, the number of people qualified to be teaching is not growing at the same rate. I fear I'm strictly making a guess here because of how popular dance has become. I'm not asking an easy or direct question here, but I know the answer is yes. A center circle exists. But I for a second was questioning, can dance be studied? Can a culture like breaking be studied and taught at a university level? And I know the answer is yes. [00:51:37] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:51:38] Speaker A: Absolutely yes. [00:51:40] Speaker B: So cute. [00:51:41] Speaker A: But what happens if it's not done well? [00:51:42] Speaker B: Oh, well, our nightmare. Yeah, our nightmare then occurs. Yes, but you have practitioners, like, why not? Who are teaching in the higher learning. [00:51:51] Speaker A: Yes. [00:51:51] Speaker B: Sphere. Who are. Yeah. For real. For real. Who bring in authentic everything you can think of in terms of authenticity when it comes to breaking culture. Right? And so just giving that as an example, giving him as an example of someone who can come in into that space and bring the culture authentically into the space. Right? But to your point, it becomes difficult. There is an over saturation, or I'll just say saturation. Sound like a granny. Likes too many dancers. But there is, especially in LA. Oh, you kids, you kissed a dance. [00:52:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. [00:52:31] Speaker B: Everyone's a dancer, right? Everyone's a dance. Everyone's a dancer. And it's like we are saturated here in LA, right? So there is this growing thing, and then with institutions like USC and Kaufman, which I love being there, it's new, it's getting ready to come upon ten year anniversary next year. And so in that sense, really bringing in and shout out to Sabela, someone else who I danced with in Rennie's company, who was a founding member of that program. And really, when we talk about what that hip hop program is there, I just shout out Sabela and really just say that he is magical in terms of how he is crafted and set the foundation for what we're now seeing. An amazing dance faculty over there. I'm two years in, and to be in a place where I have five other peers who I can speak with. I'm not the only person. And I've had wonderful experiences at the institutions where I've been previously, but this is a place where I'm not alone. [00:53:34] Speaker A: Totally. And when you're teaching a social discipline, a social art form, to be able to be in a vacuum, to do so, seems like having both hands tied behind your back in a way, no. [00:53:45] Speaker B: One is holding you accountable. No one's saying push, no one's saying yes, and. But what next? But what else? And so you get comfortable when there's no one else who's there challenging you and your practice and your curriculum. So to have that there is amazing. So, yes, that's proof that there can be this thing existing in the institution in a way that is feeding the culture and honoring the culture at the very center, when you're talking about those diagrams and the world and institution hybridity is at the very center of, for me, when we talk about what does the global dance picture look like and what people are aspiring to and what does the new dance picture look like, it's hybridity, because this is what the students, these students right now, they're living in that world. Wow. We came from a place where we. [00:54:36] Speaker A: Had to separate one or the other. [00:54:38] Speaker B: We had to separate one or the other. When I was in ballet class, I would never mention anything about hip hop or what I was doing with my friends. You couldn't be taken seriously if you were talking about hip hop and you were in a classical ballet class, you had to choose between the concert dance or the commercial world. Concert dance world or commercial dance world. There wasn't this thing when I was coming up. If you did a video, it was like, good luck being taken seriously in the concert dance world. You did a music video. What it was like. So it was this taboo thing of like, you can do one thing, you go join somebody. [00:55:07] Speaker A: We have really, really evolved, in fact, maybe pendulum swinging in the opposite direction where we are expected to do all the things. [00:55:15] Speaker B: Yeah, we're expected to do all the things. This is what this generation knows. It's do all the things. Even if you don't, if you haven't focused your study in a way that's equitable to each of these things, you've tapped in, you go to any major university, you have a hip hop class, you have, I mean, now you usually get in a hip hop class. You're getting a house class, probably at Kaufman. You have locking, you have wacking, you have house, you have a floor work class, you have intro to hip hop, you have grooves. So it's like, there's almost like no excuse to not have touched, at least been exposed. And that's, I think the conversation is hybridity. And that's at the very center of that diagram of like, what are we centering? And in that sense, everybody gets to contribute to the conversation as practitioners as well, and educators. You get in a room and you can do this. And it makes sense because that's actually where we're trying to go. We're not trying to separate these worlds. And there's still a little pushback in there. But I think it's, you definitely can be a dance nerd and still exist in the world and be taken seriously in the hip hop and street dance world. It's not the stigma around education or selling out or it's, you can do that and you can, it's more progressive. I would say the idea around a dance education is more progressive. You're not going to get a dance education because you couldn't cut it out in the dance world. Right, right where that used to be a thing. Like, oh, you're going to go to college. That's because maybe you weren't good enough to go join a company. So you go and get a degree in dance. [00:57:01] Speaker A: Yeah, that's going away. [00:57:02] Speaker B: That's going away. It's like, no, you can go get that dance education and then come out and be ready for someone's company or project based work or the commercial dance world or all of those things, which is what we see students doing now. So I think definitely there is a space where, yes, you can bring this into the institution. You can be there. You can still be taken seriously. You can be a dance nerd and still be okay, still speak about it, and still, even if you're not in those spaces, be a dance nerd and just be hungry for the information and studying and researching and doing all of those things, archival footage and all of that. And that be a cool thing now. [00:57:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:48] Speaker B: With their generation, they have a lot of questions and some things they just don't know. And when you like, there are things that we know, like classic archival footage, and you show to students thinking that they probably have seen it, but they are so curious. They're like, what is that? What? [00:58:04] Speaker A: Oh, of course. If it's footage of any sort, they're like, how have I not seen that? [00:58:07] Speaker B: Yeah, they're like, all the footage. [00:58:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:09] Speaker B: They're like, well, how can I watch it? It's like, but you didn't. Are you watching the right footage? But. [00:58:14] Speaker A: And there's a lot that they. That isn't out there. We are so lucky. That's one of the other Tony Basil pieces. The gift that keeps on giving is her archive of footage. [00:58:26] Speaker B: Unreal. [00:58:27] Speaker A: It is unreal. And it should be protected if someone hasn't fireproofed her home or. I want to bubble wrap her. [00:58:34] Speaker B: I know. [00:58:34] Speaker A: I just want to make sure nothing happens to that lady, you know what I mean? [00:58:39] Speaker B: With those archives, I thought about that. Like, it needs a vault. It needs a vault. [00:58:46] Speaker A: It needs an underground lair. It needs heavy duty bunker, bunker style. [00:58:52] Speaker B: We need, like, the dance bunker. [00:58:54] Speaker A: I hope the world gets to see all of it. I hope it's all in condition, that it's shareable. [00:58:59] Speaker B: Me too. [00:58:59] Speaker A: I'm like, me too. How can we speed up if it isn't happening already? The making of the documentary of Tony Basil. [00:59:08] Speaker B: I know, I know. [00:59:10] Speaker A: Okay, a conversation. [00:59:12] Speaker B: But by continuing to say it and talk about it. [00:59:15] Speaker A: Yes. [00:59:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes, it's necessary. [00:59:17] Speaker A: Anyone out there who wants to have that conversation, let's go. [00:59:20] Speaker B: It's a must. [00:59:21] Speaker A: I want to tell a very funny, unrelated wrist roll story. It is a Tony Basil story. [00:59:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:26] Speaker A: So. [00:59:26] Speaker B: Oh, wait. [00:59:26] Speaker A: I don't think wrist roll was there. Tony has been asking lately if wrist roll can come over instead of asking if I will come over. And I have to be okay with that because she loves my dog and wrist roll. And one of her cats, caravaggio, kind of are similar. They're kindred spirits. They're both stars, like little showmen. But I was over at the house, we were dancing, and I heard something kind of like, rustling in the garage on the side. And, you know, she has oscillating fans in there, so I'm assuming it's just, like, a piece of paper or something. It is an opossum. No, it's an adult, Dana. No, opossum with its very real looking hands creeping out of a box. No, off to the left where the racks are. Yep, yep. Because earlier that night, here's what happened. We were in the kitchen and looking out, and she's like, oh, Dana, come here. There's a baby possum outside. Possum? A baby opossum outside. And I was like, tony, no, no, no. I am not okay with that. [01:00:28] Speaker B: No, but. [01:00:29] Speaker A: And then she's like, just look at it. And I looked at it, and it was kind of cute. And it was cute because it was small. When I saw the big one, it was not cute. [01:00:35] Speaker B: It was not cute. [01:00:36] Speaker A: It was a terror. And I. I was like, I need to leave the room. And she said, no, be quiet. He'll leave. And so I was like, the way. [01:00:46] Speaker B: He did your hand was exactly. That was. [01:00:49] Speaker A: He'll leave. [01:00:50] Speaker B: He'll leave, he'll leave. [01:00:52] Speaker A: That was her, wasn't it? [01:00:53] Speaker B: That was her. [01:00:54] Speaker A: She's deepened. I'm not doing the voice right now. Cause I'm secretly hoping she'll watch this episode, and she would. If I did her voice, she would not like it. And it didn't leave. It just sat there with its hands real, very human looking, like they've got very human looking hands. We'll show you a photo will pop one up on the screen. And so we had to leave the studio and stand outside and sit and talk until the thing left, and then we could go back inside. It was riveting. One of my favorite dinosaur stories. [01:01:24] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [01:01:24] Speaker A: That has nothing to do with dance. We just got real light after getting real, real deep. Real deep. [01:01:29] Speaker B: We need that a little bit. [01:01:32] Speaker A: I cannot thank you enough for sharing your thoughts and stories and bright, bright mind and for. And just so that I say it, you are an example of the hybridity. And now you are facilitating other people for that to not be the outlier situation. I do think you were an outlier in your vision for yourself, and what you accomplished is more rare, especially among our types. But I think because of you and your teachings and the pathways that Rennie, Debbie, your mom, even your dad, and professionals working in this. In this world with discipline and respect and reverence for their craft and the people who came before. The pathways are set and you will make much more common the ability to experience a full, full dance world instead of a narrow slice of that dance piece. Yeah. And thank you for being a part of that in many spaces, but specifically in this space today. I am eternally grateful. Thank you so much for being here. [01:02:39] Speaker B: Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for creating this. [01:02:42] Speaker A: Oh, my God. And thank you for teaching dance hall. I'm coming back. I'm coming back. Me and these Forrest Gump legs. Listen, I feel crazy in there. [01:02:55] Speaker B: You're fine. Dance. I know. That's a whole other thing. I was in a space last night and, like, being introduced to people and, you know, people were very cool. It was like this little vip space after the show. People were like, hi. They're like, oh, this is my friend Nina flagged, and, oh, yeah, she's a dance practitioner as well. Oh, nice to meet you. And she teaches this dance hall class. You're the one that teaches dance hall? Like, that was the. [01:03:18] Speaker A: And it is that good? [01:03:20] Speaker B: Is this my calling card here? I'm thinking other things. Oh, yeah, dance hall. No, I've heard about the dance hall. [01:03:26] Speaker A: It's ridiculous. It is an energy. You were talking about energy before. It's a whole entire energy. [01:03:32] Speaker B: It is. [01:03:32] Speaker A: It is remarkable and terrifying to me. [01:03:37] Speaker B: Oh, no. [01:03:38] Speaker A: Liberating at the same time. But you know how that is. Yeah. I mean, I have expectations of myself to be a great dancer. [01:03:45] Speaker B: Mm hmm. [01:03:46] Speaker A: Because here I am in a house that I bought off my checks from dance. [01:03:50] Speaker B: Come on now. [01:03:50] Speaker A: Thank you. And I like to talk about it, too, because I'm trying actively to rewrite the starving artist story. [01:03:55] Speaker B: Yes. Thank you. [01:03:57] Speaker A: However, thank you. [01:03:59] Speaker B: Dance hall. Dance hall forever. Dance hall culture. I mean, there would be no class without the genius pioneers, innovators who have created the culture of dancehall in Kingston, Jamaica, and continue to push the culture forward. That is a whole other chapter of my life that I never thought I'd be teaching dancehall. That's something that I did. Sneaking. I started sneaking into clubs when I was 14 and sneaking in the dance hall clubs both here and in New York when I would spend the summers in New York, just honoring my caribbean roots and something I did for self. And someone asked me to teach a studio, said when I went to teach, they were like, you teach all these other things, but we saw you do some freestyle of, like, something dance hall. Can you teach that? And I was like, teach dance hall? And they were like, yeah. And I was like, oh, oh, okay. And I was just teaching, like, old school grooves things that we were doing. And then it was my. One of my really good friends and just amazing practitioner Betty rocks out here, who was organizing trips back and forth to Jamaica for dancers just to. And, you know, experience the culture and also, you know, go and have a good time. But it was when I was immersive. [01:05:08] Speaker A: Like, an all in, like, let's go. [01:05:10] Speaker B: And it was when I started traveling with her back and forth to Jamaica that I really started to understand new school dance hall, because I was still in my bag. I mean, I don't. I'm a of a different generation. I don't know if we're the same around the same generation, but maybe. [01:05:23] Speaker A: I don't know, maybe close. [01:05:24] Speaker B: Probably close. Same world swirl. But I love world swirl. World swirl same world swirl same world swirl. But, yeah, I was, like, into, like, old school grooves and stuff, but really understanding and seeing what new school is, which is all the intricate footwork and things and that. So getting that piece. But dancehall has become its own part of my life, dance life that I just didn't see coming. But it's so dear to me, and I love it, love it, love it. Dance hall forever. Dance hall is my every. [01:05:53] Speaker A: And you'll be back teaching in September, right? You're taking August? [01:05:57] Speaker B: I just took a little break. I traveled a little the end of last month, and I just need a little breather. [01:06:02] Speaker A: Yeah. So I'll make sure I link to all your classes. And I would love to be. I would love to be back. I'm bringing you, so understand. [01:06:10] Speaker B: No judgment. [01:06:11] Speaker A: Okay. So I will be back, and I will be pointing to your classes. I'll be sure to add your handles and all the things in the social media. Okay. Before I come take your dance hall class, and before I let you go tonight. [01:06:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:23] Speaker A: I'm gonna do a rapid fire burnout round. I call it wrist roll with it. [01:06:27] Speaker B: Okay. [01:06:27] Speaker A: Ready for this? Coffee or tea? [01:06:30] Speaker B: Tea. [01:06:31] Speaker A: Dogs or cats? [01:06:32] Speaker B: Neither. [01:06:35] Speaker A: Okay. What is the last song that you sang? [01:06:38] Speaker B: Loud encore by sherilyn on the way over here on repeat. [01:06:44] Speaker A: Nice. Yeah, you fell. Fell into a loop with it. Deep pocket with it. [01:06:49] Speaker B: I fell into a loop with it. I love that song. [01:06:51] Speaker A: Nice. [01:06:51] Speaker B: Fell into a deep loop thinking about how to do a dance hall kind of mashup with. [01:06:57] Speaker A: Who sings this? [01:06:58] Speaker B: Cheryl Lynn. [01:06:59] Speaker A: Okay. [01:06:59] Speaker B: You know, encore, you've seen. You know who I ran across. I love this song, but I ran across. Flowmaster did a locking combination to it a while ago, but, yeah. Encore by sherlyn. Old school. Like, old school funk and, oh, I cannot wait kind of pop, but, ooh. [01:07:17] Speaker A: And you're gonna dance hall. [01:07:18] Speaker B: I'm thinking about doing. Even if it's just for myself. [01:07:21] Speaker A: You're getting me excited right now. You're getting me excited right now. Okay. A song that you can't not dance to. [01:07:28] Speaker B: Ooh. [01:07:28] Speaker A: What really disrupts you? Like, you're in mid conversation. It comes on. You're like, excuse me, I have to leave this conversation. [01:07:33] Speaker B: It's probably gonna be a house song. Probably. It's gonna be move your body. So how song it's gonna be move your body. Yeah. Just can't. Like, I have to. You do. [01:07:50] Speaker A: When you receive the prompt move your body, you say, okay, yeah. Yes, I will. Right now. Right now. Understood. [01:07:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:59] Speaker A: What is your favorite move? [01:08:01] Speaker B: My favorite move, probably. [01:08:04] Speaker A: I won't tell the others. [01:08:05] Speaker B: Okay, so my favorite move. Oh, if I had to, just like something. It's a lotus. Because of Marjorie. Marjorie smart, this lotus in house. Just that. Just that it's for what it means, what it feels like. [01:08:20] Speaker A: You tell me what it means. [01:08:22] Speaker B: Well, it's Lotus and honor. You know, they call Marjorie Lotus. That was a nickname. But Margie would always do that movement. And just like, when I do that, I feel like we're honoring her. But also the fact that it involves hips, legs, it's all of the things. It's like, I feel like I can be my total and complete self when I do that move. [01:08:41] Speaker A: Beautiful. [01:08:42] Speaker B: And I can also honor someone who just has influenced every single person who has ever come into that house sphere, even if they don't know what they. She's in. Influence your teacher and the person that you are learning from and taking class from, directly or indirectly, it's in you because of her. Yeah, it's. Yeah. Oh. [01:09:03] Speaker A: Sad to ask this question after that. Beautiful answer. Beautiful answer. I want to know about a move that you would delete. [01:09:09] Speaker B: Oh, the one. And don't come for me. I know this is the cop weather world. Please don't. But the overused one hand. [01:09:17] Speaker A: Oh. [01:09:18] Speaker B: Inverted. Split the catch. Mm hmm. There was a time that if I saw that one more time, I would just throw up. Because of what people have done to it. [01:09:29] Speaker A: Oh, I just saw eight bad ones flash across the bad one. [01:09:33] Speaker B: It's the. [01:09:33] Speaker A: Where I'm concerned about the elbow joint and the hips aren't in line with the shoulders. [01:09:38] Speaker B: Yes. Like, there was a time where I had, like, an. A reaction. [01:09:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that. If you had a superpower, what would it be like? You got to elect to have the special gift of a power. What would it be? [01:09:54] Speaker B: Telepathy. [01:09:56] Speaker A: Nice. [01:09:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:57] Speaker A: That's a popular one. [01:09:58] Speaker B: I know it is. [01:10:00] Speaker A: Flying would be great. I wouldn't say no. [01:10:03] Speaker B: My mom says flying. [01:10:05] Speaker A: Could you imagine being the only one that could, though, in a world where everyone gets to choose a superpower? I think a lot of people will be flying. If I was the only one that could fly, that would be nice. [01:10:16] Speaker B: That would be. That's major. [01:10:18] Speaker A: That's major. [01:10:18] Speaker B: That's major. [01:10:19] Speaker A: It really is. [01:10:21] Speaker B: But do you have flying dreams? Do you have dreams you're flying? [01:10:23] Speaker A: I do have dreams about flying. More often. I have dreams about not being able to recall choreography or having to perform without makeup on, or not knowing where. [01:10:31] Speaker B: My shoes are, or not knowing the choreography and having to go on stage. [01:10:34] Speaker A: Yep. [01:10:34] Speaker B: We talk about dance nightmares. [01:10:36] Speaker A: Dance nightmares all the time. Had a couple recently. Not hot. Okay. What is your actual dance superpower? [01:10:45] Speaker B: Freedom. Being free. And freedom is a technique. I always say that. Freedom is a technique. That's my motto when I teach. Freedom is a technique. [01:11:03] Speaker A: Podcast over and out. Click subscribe like bell notifications. Tip your waitress. Keep it funky. See you later. What? You're beautiful. You're so wonderful, Nina. [01:11:16] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [01:11:24] Speaker A: Like, what the fuck? You definitely are a disciple of Debbie Allen. Because you are. [01:11:32] Speaker B: That's my. [01:11:33] Speaker A: You are dropping gems and planting seeds here today, my friend. I am very excited for you. Listener, viewer. [01:11:38] Speaker B: Thank you. [01:11:38] Speaker A: To get to have witnessed this person in this casual discourse, this conversation between friends who've known each other for so long but never sat to talk shop like this. This is really exciting to me and would love to continue this conversation. I threw my card away, but the last question I will ask is, what are the words that move you? It can be a guiding principle, a mantra, a poem, a riddle. [01:12:06] Speaker B: Honesty. That's a big one. Just being honest with your art. With our art. And honest with each other. And honest with ourselves. Honesty. And then what I just said, freedom. Honesty and freedom are big ones. Big ones. Big, big. Yeah. Yeah. Those are the words that move me, inspire me, and, like, hold me when I'm not too sure about anything. [01:12:48] Speaker A: Remember Riley, I was like, she's really smart. She's really good at dance. I'm so excited. You did not disappoint. Nina flag. Thank you so much for sharing your like on the podcast today. I just I marvel. I am so in awe of you. You're so wonderful. [01:13:03] Speaker B: Oh my gosh. [01:13:05] Speaker A: Great, great. There you have it. There you have it everyone. This is awesome. [01:13:09] Speaker B: This was awesome. I so enjoyed this. [01:13:11] Speaker A: Anytime. That was so delightful. Thank you so much. [01:13:15] Speaker B: Thank you, thank you. [01:13:19] Speaker A: Keep it funky. This podcast was produced by me with the help of many big, big love to our executive assistant and editor, Riley Higgins. Our communications manager is ory vajadares. Our music is by Max Winnie, logo and brand design by Bree reets, thumbnails and marketing by Fiona Small. You can make your tax deductible donations towards that. Move me. Thanks to our fiscal sponsor, the dance resource center, and also many thanks to you. I'm so glad you're here. And if you're digging the pod, please share it. Leave a review and rating. And if you want to coach with me and the many marvelous members of the words that move me community, visit wordsthatmoveme.com dot. If you're simply curious to know more about me and the work I do outside of this podcast, visit thedanawilson.com.