Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to Words That Move Me, the podcast where movers and shakers like you get the information and inspiration you need to navigate your creative career with clarity and confidence. I am your host Dana Wilson. And I move people. I am all about the tools and techniques that empower tomorrow's leaders to make the work of their dreams and live a full life while doing it. So whether you're new to the game or transitioning to your next echelon of greatness, you're in the right place. Hello, friend. Hello. Here's what's up. I've been on six flights in the past 10 days, and I am feeling a little loopy. Very dry, very dry. My lips are dry. My skin is dry, my voice feels dry, and I am also a little congested and probably a little under rested. So this should be interesting <laugh>. Um, I'm kidding. This is gonna be great.
Speaker 0 00:01:00 This is gonna be great, and this is why it is gonna be great. It is gonna be great because today's guest is Jen Stafford, a dancer, actor, singer, a wonderful human being from Calgary, Canada, who is as talented as she is. Generous. She's so giving in this conversation. Wow. She is truly an example of what is possible when you follow your interests, when you put yourself first and you put yourself out there. Uh, she is also a person who is on a gym name basis with James Cameron, which I think is cool <laugh>, and you are so excited to hear more about her experience with Avatar, Cirque, Mulan Rouge, and so much more. Get ready. But first we're gonna do some wins. <laugh>. Today I'm celebrating a really cool hang with my niece Amelia, who is nine. Hey, Millie. What's up? Um, Millie came to spend the night with me at my hotel in Denver, which is my hometown.
Speaker 0 00:02:02 I was teaching for N Y C D A over the weekend, and Millie came to have a slumber party, and I just had a very cool, very adult hang with her. And I just wanna let you know, I wanted to let you in on a little bit of how that played out. Millie stayed up pretty late on what was, it must have been Friday night. And we had a, an adult hang with some adults, and she was very grown up in her conversation, in her contributions to this adult dinner moment. And, um, I was just impressed by that. And then we got to the hotel room. Millie was brushing her teeth and I was taking out my contacts and with her toothbrush in her mouth, she looked down at the countertop, which was kind of a orangey kind of color with her toothbrush in her mouth. She looked at me and she said, what do you think of these salmon? No, no, no, this is what she said. What do you think of this salmon granite? But it sounded like this. What you sh she granite? And I was like, excuse me, <laugh>. And she took her toothbrush outta her mouth, and she said, what do you think of this salmon, granite, <laugh>?
Speaker 0 00:03:11 And I looked at the countertop, and indeed it was salmon colored granite. And I said, you know, the longer I look at it, the more I like it. But I, I wish it was less black and more salmon. It was, it was pretty speckled. And she was like, yeah, I agree. Continues brushing teeth. And then she goes, I prefer marble. I think <laugh>. And I was like, dang, that really happened. Nine years old came so fast. She's an adult. I'm celebrating an awesome weekend with my awesome niece. That's me. That's what's going well in my world. Now you go take it away. What is going well in yours? Tell me all about it out loud. It matters.
Speaker 1 00:04:03 Yay.
Speaker 0 00:04:06 Congratulations, my friend. I'm so proud of you. Keep crushing it. I'm celebrating you. I'm cheering you on. I think you're great. All right, let's do this, shall we? I really can't wait for you to fall in love with Jen Stafford. She's a magical person, a wonderful woman. Today. We're talking circus. We're talking auditions, we talk touring. We're also discussing her struggles with eczema and how learning how to voice her needs and also manage her stress. We're really, really a game changer for her. Uh, this is the good stuff, my friend. Please enjoy the one and only Jen Stafford. Jen Stafford, welcome to the podcast. Holy smokes.
Speaker 2 00:04:54 Hey, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 0 00:04:57 I am thrilled and honored my friend, and very excited to have you. I have been wanting to talk to you for years about Avatar, and we're gonna do that for several minutes, but that's not the only thing I wanna talk to you about. Um, I, I, uh, before we get too far in with like my preamble, listen, I'm a podcast person. Okay. I have noticed in myself that I preamble the preamble to the preamble. I'm doing it right now. So I just wanna, because I know we're gonna talk, talk, shop a lot. I want to cut right to the chase. We'll do the traditional thing here on the podcast that we do, which is all of the guests introduce themselves. Um, okay. And then we'll get into it. But right now, throwing to you, what would you like us, as in the listeners and me, although I do already know you, but what, what would you like us to know about you, Jen, introduce yourself.
Speaker 2 00:05:54 Uh, my name's Jen Stafford. I am a dancer, actor, singer, originally from Canada, Calgary, Canada, to be exact. And I've been living in Los Angeles and the States for about, let's say eight years. <laugh>. Okay. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, give or take. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. That's nice. Yes. Doing, doing the things that I love and being a part of really cool projects, um, that inspire me.
Speaker 0 00:06:20 Yeah. For example,
Speaker 2 00:06:23 For an example, <laugh> Avatar, the way of Water, <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:06:27 <laugh>, no big deal. Just the highest grossing film of all time.
Speaker 2 00:06:31 <laugh>. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:06:33 I'm pretty sure right. Is I think, is that, I
Speaker 2 00:06:35 Think not all of all time, actually, but I think,
Speaker 0 00:06:38 Well, it's only been in theaters for like, like a couple months.
Speaker 2 00:06:41 Yeah, I know. It
Speaker 0 00:06:42 Knocked Maverick out. Oh, Titanic is
Speaker 2 00:06:45 Number one. Titanic got re-released, so now that kind of like bumped it a little bit, but still a crazy thing for me to say, obviously. Um, you can hear my hesitation. I'm like, what is that
Speaker 0 00:06:56 My life that I'm reporting right now? Yeah. Yes, it is.
Speaker 2 00:06:59 Yeah. An Oscar nominated film mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, uh, an amazing, amazing film. So a part of that, uh, I also was a part of Cir du Sole, the Beatles Love show when I first started, um, my professional dance jobs. And then right now I'm on tour with the first national tour of Mullan Rouge, the musical. Yes. Yeah. It's been all over the map a little bit. <laugh>. Oh,
Speaker 0 00:07:27 I love this. This is such, you are such a great example. Not only of a, of a woman who went out there and did it, but a Canadian woman who went out there did the darn thing. I want to know a little bit about your decision to leave Canada. Was it always Los Angeles that that really did it for you? Um, what was that decision making moment like for you?
Speaker 2 00:07:51 Well, I think growing up in Canada, I was, I was very happy. I, I loved Canada, A lot of Canadians,
Speaker 0 00:07:58 Most Canadians feel some
Speaker 2 00:08:00 Type of way about Canada. I dunno. Um, it's beautiful. It's a beautiful place to grow up and live. Um, lots of space and nature. And I didn't want to pursue dancing or acting professionally until I was around 15 or 16. And I saw that as an option. And I think that was after traveling to Toronto or to a couple US cities and seeing the caliber of talent there and seeing what I had to do to get there. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I don't think us or LA was initially my goal. I did see a lot of, um, people that I looked up to. I e make Lawson mm-hmm. <affirmative>, who were, is from Calgary as well. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> taught me in Calgary choreographed solos for me in Calgary. So yes. Must
Speaker 0 00:08:46 See evidence,
Speaker 2 00:08:47 <laugh> must find evidence. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but yeah, she, so sh people like her inspired me that LA was maybe possible, but mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I was also, when I graduated school, I went to Vancouver first. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and I don't, at the time, Vancouver is not what it is. Now's like a, a TV
Speaker 0 00:09:07 Kinda of a hub. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:09:09 Yeah. But it had great dancers and great training. And then Toronto I also dabbled in as well. Um, again, like amazing talent. And I, I first started out there and then it was actually Cirque du Sole that Okay. That audition brought me to Las Vegas. They got me my first P one mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative> Visa, which is just for that company. But I knew that was a big stepping stone because as many international people, especially obviously Canadians, but all over the world, to get to America, to dance, to train is one thing, but to get to America to work and live is a whole other hard, uh, battle. Yeah. So
Speaker 0 00:09:53 Hard and not cheap, uh, from, from what I have heard. Yeah. So Cirque was kind of the gateway. That makes a lot of sense. Um, I saw the Beatles love show years and years and years ago. I wonder if I saw you in it. Speaking of Meg Lawson, she Is How I know of You, I think, um, mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Megan has great taste in all the things, but especially in dancers. And so I think when she introduced my eyes to you, I was like, oh, what a nymph, what a like woodland fairy from another plate. Like, you just see there's something very special about you and your way and I, and that extends beyond the way that you dance, but the way that you treat people and the way that you speak. So I'm so glad to have you here as an example of what is possible. Holy freaking smokes.
Speaker 2 00:10:45 Yeah. I think that's, I've been thinking like that as well. Like, wow, what is possible? Like mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what is actually possible in your life. And I know that something that I don't talk about all the time is my skin and my challenges that I had growing up. Um, being super allergic to things, having really severe eczema mm-hmm. <affirmative> then going through a whole journey of figuring out what was causing it, a topical steroid withdrawal. And I think I would, it would be ais to leave out that, that was a great challenge when I was growing up as a teenager and a young adult. And, which is why I had a couple of tries. I went to Vancouver and wasn't doing well and had to go home, Uhhuh <affirmative>, and then went to Toronto, tried it again. And I've had to maneuver that as well. But I think my younger self could not believe or fathom what, what is possible Awesome. How, how much better my skin is doing, and also what I was able to achieve
Speaker 0 00:11:42 <laugh> Awesome.
Speaker 2 00:11:42 Over the past few years. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:11:44 Thank you so much for bringing that up, because the story I thought we would be telling today is your remarkable audition story for Avatar, um, where you kind of sort of crashed the audition, um, that Chris was going to Chris the stunt, does he consider himself a stunt performer? Or, or stunt,
Speaker 2 00:12:05 Yeah. He's, he's an actor and stunt actor. Stunt, yeah. Actor and stunt performer. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:12:10 And, and in that story, which I do still want to tell by the way mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, it might seem that this person who's like a really great dancer, got really lucky one day at some audition, and then the rest was history. Right? Like, that is a story that we could tell. So thank you so much for Inj injecting the other story that is as true, which is you have been at this and dealing with challenges for a long freaking time. Um, and because I know that I have a couple listeners who struggle with eczema specifically, could you talk a little bit about what the, like, obviously being a person who is dealing with sweat, who is dealing with unusual hours, who's dealing with sometimes not being able to plan your own food. You're on movie sets, you're on TV sets where, you know, I know that diet is probably very important to you. Or is it, I don't know. Um, could you talk about what helps you specifically manage flareups and is it, or, and how did you find out, how did you go through the process of illumination to find out what it was that was really one of your, uh, or some of your triggers?
Speaker 2 00:13:18 Yeah, I think, um, when I was growing up, it was always a thing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like I grew up with eczema, I was very stereotypical, but then when I was about 15 or 16, it kind of shifted into like what I call a full body hive. And like no one knew it what it was, no cream would work. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, no medication would work. Um, and that's what I recognize is like T S W, which is like tropical steroid withdrawal mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is that cream over over u over time and overuse, your body can have the opposite reaction and it can stop working and your body can actually flare more. Gotcha.
Speaker 2 00:13:56 Um, and in different ways. So that was pretty, I would say pretty like one of my, like my hardest chunk of years, <laugh>. And I think through that though, I had to go to Nat Naturopaths, I went to doctors, I got tested for all the allergens, eliminating a lot of things, and then reintroducing them back into my diet. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, was a way to really figure out what were my triggers. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what works, what doesn't work, what can I do to prevent, so, but now, I think, you know, years later and being a professional, um, working in the industry, yeah. Like I bring my own makeup, Uhhuh <affirmative>, I've done like research studies on myself to figure out which makeup I can use. Right. Yeah. And what products work that are like stage quality, that are film quality. I've had to get a lot better at asking for what I need. Mm. And taking up space, which I was never really great at. I, I just wanted to, you know, as dancers also, I think we're very like,
Speaker 0 00:14:54 As easy as possible. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:14:56 Yeah. Don't worry about me, I'll just flare tomorrow. Oh. And it's like, well, maybe it's not that big of a deal if you just voice your needs. And that was a really big hill to get over. But I think yeah. Testing all of that stuff, um, and my diet for sure. And honestly, biggest thing, and I am sure anyone who has eczema or something similar, it's stress and we wear our stress on our outsides, whereas many people probably, yes, our insides might be suffering, but we, we can't see it or we don't see it for many years. The, um, the effect of stress. But with us, lucky us, we get to know right away.
Speaker 0 00:15:41 <laugh>, yo, I, when I first moved to Los Angeles and experienced the 4 0 5 for the first time, um, I got what my sister helped me. She is a physician. Uh, my sister helped me recognize as psis Rosa, which is a rash that c stems from being stressed usually doesn't happen until like mid thirties, people with families with jobs. And I was just a 19 year old navigating the streets of Los Angeles having a PR flare up because of stress. Um, and it, it did go away eventually completely, but it happened like fiery Bernie itchy when I got in the car and was driving in traffic. What the heck?
Speaker 2 00:16:25 Makes sense though. I mean, our, our bodies like really tell us and release those hormones mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the cortisol right away mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So,
Speaker 0 00:16:35 Yeah. Fascinating. Well, thank you for sharing and for of course helping people, uh, see the value in asking for what you need. Because I love what you just said. It's either like, I voice my needs today, or I have my flare up tomorrow, so mm-hmm. <affirmative> kind of, kind of an important moment. And fortunately we get to practice all the time. That type of language we do, like showing up for yourself. We can practice every day doing that. I do think it's kind of poetic that you did all that work, did all those <laugh>, did all the digging, did all the suffering, and struggling to find yourself in Mocap Town where it doesn't matter what your skin freaking looks like, what the heck, <laugh>. But I, I will say one of my favorite things about mocap gigs, which is it's been, it's been a while, uh, the last full day of a shoot of mocap that I did was for a video game.
Speaker 0 00:17:40 I can't even remember who makes it now, but my favorite thing about how that day went was that it was fast because there was no, like, oh, the light was catching her cheek kind of funny. Or like, the pants were bagging weird, her hair was in her face. Like, if you nail the movement, if the camera nails the camera, you just move on. You move on. So those days went really fast. I wound up, um, I was slated to do one character in one day and I did two characters in one day, cuz I'm a dancer who takes direction. Well, and it just really flowed, it just kept going. I think because Avatar took more than two years to capture that, that was probably not the case for you. Could you talk a little bit about that? Um,
Speaker 3 00:18:27 Yeah, I think <laugh> it's, yeah. Not as fast for sure. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because I think when you're just concentrating on the movement itself mm-hmm. <affirmative>, then yes, that can go really fast. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if it's a pla it's if you're just replacing a movement or mm-hmm. <affirmative> in action or a stunt. Yeah. Like, I can see that going fast. The thing about like our production and working with Jim, who's amazing, he, he just thinks about everything. He, as a director, he thinks about in the moment how the light is hitting. We have digital lighting.
Speaker 0 00:18:59 Yeah. Yep.
Speaker 3 00:19:00 Yep. New world
Speaker 0 00:19:01 That, so it very much, very much did matter. Like, oh my God, God, it must have been so stressful.
Speaker 3 00:19:07 But it was cool to like see all the departments working together and to watch him. He, he really understands every single department and knows how to communicate with them mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, to get the look or whatever he wants from the shot. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I, I just think, yeah, it, it went a little bit. It's definitely like a process. It was slow because he, he is a perfectionist, but in the best way cuz then we get Yeah. Movies like that.
Speaker 0 00:19:38 Woo. Um, speaking of being an example of what is possible, James freaking Cameron also a Canadian, um, yeah.
Speaker 0 00:19:49 I just listened to him on Smart Lists, the podcast with, um, those guys and not dismissive at all. That was not meant to be dismissive Tone. Love him. That podcast is great. And I, I was particularly taken by the way he talked about the technology, how for him in this point in his career, which Yes has the top number one grossing film of all time and the number two grossing film of all time. But they're also the most expensive films to ever be made. Um, so it's not like he has total carte blanche. It's not like he, I mean, maybe he does get everything he wants, but he still wants more. He's building subs for crying out loud. He's like literally, um, identifying new species while he's making his films. It's wild to hear exactly how much is possible with a person like that. Um, do you have any outstanding stories from working with him where you were just like, is this a real freaking person? Like this is not even human. The, the capability here. <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:20:54 I, all I can say is that I'm so happy that I met him, like on set in person mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, as, as Jim as this Canadian who also happened to be interested in C Sole. So we got to chat about that and um, and learn and talk to him and get to know him, um, on set as a human being, um, as a human being first, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I, I, I now know a little bit more of his work and stuff, but mm-hmm. <affirmative> working with him and just seeing you're right. Like, because it's, he's able to, yes, it's a high budget. He's able to touch every, every department, but he's so inquisitive and, um, and just like interested in everything, um, about every topic. And that's why I think he wants
Speaker 0 00:21:45 A great high quality.
Speaker 3 00:21:47 Yeah. Find new, um, species, find new ways of doing things, create new technology. It's, um, very inspiring.
Speaker 0 00:21:54 Yeah. Yeah. That was what I, I meant to say. The thing that stood out to me is like, he is, the question was asked like, are you using the newest technology out there and are you able to afford the newest technology out there because you're James Cameron? Or are you creating the newest technology out there because you're James Cameron and you're working on these things? And the answer was the second. Like there are that Yeah. He is part of developing these new technologies which ultimately belong to other companies. Like it's, you know, the actual, there are engineers and there are people who are building this stuff out that will own it and then get to sell it to whatever other productions come after this. But yeah, it's like his imagination says, can we do this? And it's somebody else's job to be like, Ooh, yeah, how about this? And then he's saying, well, how about this? And then they're saying, well, yeah, I think we can do that. And then it exists.
Speaker 3 00:22:49 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:22:49 Which,
Speaker 3 00:22:50 Which is really possible. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:22:51 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, which honestly is sort of what we do on a less technical level with dance all the time. It's like, sort of like a this and could we do it like that? And then it's a dancer's job to be like, oh yeah, totally I can do that. Look isn't kinda like this. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so it was cool to hear like mirrors of that technology conversation or see a mirror of that conversation happening around tech, which is what happens in a dance studio with dancers all the time. Um, okay. I do wanna retrograde a little bit though cuz your audition story and how this all came to be for you going from, you know, not being a stunt performer at all, which was, I think the audition that you went on to having a speaking freaking role in this mega, mega thing. Um, how, how did that happen? Tell the audition story, because it is the greatest thing I've ever heard.
Speaker 3 00:23:46 Well, yeah, I <laugh> it was, it was 2017, um,
Speaker 0 00:23:51 <laugh>, the year was 2017. The year of 2017. Um, the Sun dial read that it was what day? At what time? <laugh>. Yes. A long time ago.
Speaker 3 00:23:59 Chris, my, well, he's not my husband, but my boyfriend at the time, uh, a stunt person. He kind of, he f he came across this call that was for the best of the best stunt performers, park Corps, freerunning martial artist and dance was in that list. And I remember being like, well, I'm, I'm a good dancer. <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:24:20 One of those many things.
Speaker 3 00:24:22 Yeah. So we, he's like, I think you should come to this audition. I have a feeling it's for Avatar and I think you should go. I think you'd be really great. And I, I was like, I, I don't know. I have this, I had a dance audition for a Canadian movie that day as well mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I just really thought that I should be there because it was gonna be a smaller call all Canadians. So I said, fine, we'll go to this other audition. We'll go really early in the morning. We'll, whatever, who, who do I know there,
Speaker 0 00:24:53 Whatever will happen. And then I'll go do this Canadian thing
Speaker 3 00:24:55 And then we'll then I'll go to my serious dance audition for this uhhuh
Speaker 0 00:24:58 Where I, where I stand a chance.
Speaker 3 00:25:00 Yeah. Okay. Um, so we go and a lot of people were showing up with like, the craziest things I've ever seen in my life, probably at Tempest
Speaker 0 00:25:11 Skill Skills wise or
Speaker 3 00:25:13 Skills wise. Yes. Okay. Um, jumping off the highest, craziest things. Whoa. Um, and they also wanted to show us like some movement, which, you know, for me was my expertise mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but we went one at a time. And so I finally, it was, I think I went within the first five to 10 people of the audition because I knew I had to get to this other audition. Right. So I go in and I said out loud, I was like, I'm a dancer and I had music and no one else had music.
Speaker 0 00:25:45 <laugh> work <laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:25:47 I was like, I don't know what to do. I'm just gonna audition. And what
Speaker 0 00:25:51 Was your audition song?
Speaker 3 00:25:53 Um, it was called Inside A Boy Uhhuh, um, by Brightest Diamond. And it was actually one of my first Cirque Dule audition songs as well.
Speaker 0 00:26:02 Ooh. Okay. Noted
Speaker 3 00:26:04 My song. Um, and I just improvd and moved the way I thought a navi would. I didn't really have any background or training, but I just figured I would just improv a scene with some movement with some of my dance ability, but mostly with the character in mind. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I would have to say like, thank goodness for Cirque Soole for teaching me how to be a character, be silly. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, improv, all these things. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Cause I definitely felt that at that opportunity and time, I was so glad to have that mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:26:40 <affirmative>. Um,
Speaker 3 00:26:41 And I felt really good about it. It, and the stunt coordinator definitely wanted to see if I could like, take a, like, take a hit like jump and fall and like, as if something was happening. Um, a a bomb or something like that. And so mm-hmm. <affirmative> explosion did that and felt really great about it. And we left and that was it. And went to the other audition, which is cra cause I was like buzzing Uhhuh, but then I had to learn like choreography.
Speaker 0 00:27:07 Oh, right. <laugh> and back at it,
Speaker 3 00:27:10 <laugh>. And then we, we didn't find out for a couple weeks later we had a callback, which was with our, um, our ad. We did some more thorough movement, character more scenarios mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then we had a, another callback after that they've like,
Speaker 0 00:27:30 And were Chris, you, you both were still in the, in the hat mm-hmm. <affirmative> up to that point. Yeah. Awesome.
Speaker 3 00:27:35 And then this, yeah, the callbacks were basically to see like if the, the movers, the stump performers could like,
Speaker 0 00:27:45 Handle be the character. Well,
Speaker 3 00:27:48 And it was really just an inspiring couple of days
Speaker 0 00:27:52 At that point. Did you know that it was Avatar people? It must have been the biggest secret in the world, but had they, were they able to tell you?
Speaker 3 00:27:58 It was pretty obvious, I think mm-hmm. <affirmative> by then. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but again, like the movie had come out 10 years prior mm-hmm. <affirmative> almost. And I hadn't seen, like, I had seen it in high school or the end of high school. So, uh, we, we watched a couple clips before these auditions just to get a vibe of what we should be doing and Uhhuh <affirmative>. And ultimately I just told myself, I just wanted to have fun and be silly and be a character and, and offer and share. And I, I don't think, I think I was naive to what the world and what the potential of this job was. Um, so that maybe helped with my audition as well. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then from there, like we, we got brought in quite a few times, uh, or I did for an small group of us to kind of compile, uh, a group that would, that would help with the entire film for the two years, the truth.
Speaker 3 00:28:59 Correct. It was just supposed to be six months, but I ended up working on it for two years. And it's like this amazing group of actors and dancers and stunt performers and movers and just people that really work well together and that work well with Jim and our, I, our ad Maria and our stunt coordinator Garrett. And just creating a team that can do anything from like prevising a scene to big troubleshooting. Troubleshooting anything. Yeah. Yeah. To actually being in the scene. And then ultimately there are characters within the script that we play mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, but you never know what you're going to do. Right. Um, and that was the cherry on top of the whole experience was to play the Ta Nuis Sahi, um, which I didn't know I was gonna be playing until I think la la later in the second year. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:29:56 <affirmative>. So f I did a little bit of digging before this conversation. So you became part of this like inner circle of troop shoppers? The troop, yeah. Who is intimately involved on a day-to-day basis of building the things, restructuring things, troubleshooting things, then actually doing the things and the character. Would you play multiple characters in that, like within each other? You would be different things on different days. Um, but you found yourself in a track as a, like on the page, a written character who had no lines. But at a point Jim asked you could you just, you know,
Speaker 3 00:30:37 He had some ideas with these could say and then also like embellish upon that.
Speaker 0 00:30:43 So you'd be improvising with English in English words, what might be happening in the scene, and then eventually had to go back and record like your actual voice saying these things, not in English. Is that how that went down?
Speaker 3 00:30:58 Yeah. So on the, on the day that we shot it with everybody in the scene mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and with all effects and sounds and gunfire and mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:31:09 <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 3 00:31:09 Cairo and, you know, uh, all the
Speaker 0 00:31:12 Environment, all of all of the things.
Speaker 3 00:31:14 Yeah. All the people in the scene were there. We did it in English mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but Jim did say like, you know, in a year or two, I'm gonna have to call you back and you're gonna have to learn the same dialogue that you said and not be, which is obviously the language, but now a different language because this is a different group. Whoa. So it was slightly different. So then basically when he, did you
Speaker 0 00:31:41 Create those languages? Did he write those languages? Is he like, full blown talking, but
Speaker 3 00:31:45 Paul Fromer is, is the linguist that kind of Okay. Created the entire language. And he's the one who helped me learn all the things I needed to know <laugh>, uh, which was so fun because he's an incredible person. I can't remember how many languages he knows, but it's like upwards of, I wanna say like 13. Geez. Yeah. Something like that.
Speaker 0 00:32:10 Oh my goodness.
Speaker 3 00:32:12 He has a very, he's very talented. Um, so we, we had to rerecord that with, um, F P R, which is not a d r, not just the audio, but also your face as well. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so that was the challenging part, I think to, and the, the little bit nerve-wracking part to go back into the studio, but it's just gonna be me and six cameras and I have to watch the scene back, give the same kind of performance and emotional stakes, but also say the lines that are new to me, but with the same meaning. But you don't have anyone with you. You just have six cameras in your face, plus your, your head reg and, and you get to watch, watch the, the version of the, of the scene that we had, which,
Speaker 0 00:32:59 Which was not final or even close at that point. Right.
Speaker 3 00:33:02 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> wasn't finalized by any means. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:33:07 I mean, talk about having to call on your imagination. I just got, uh, for the dance convention that I worked for, they send us all, all the faculty gets a survey at the beginning of the year, and they do like little Instagram, social media things about the faculty throughout the year. And one of the things said, what do you think is the most important, uh, to an artist? Like, what is, what is the most important quality to have or most important thing an artist can have? And my first instinct, and the best word that I could come up with was imagination. You must have an imagination. And in that case it must be wild, like a v a a vibrant and wild and very, um, boundless imagination and a technician that meets it. Like you had to be so technical in your recreation of the thing. Um, did you find that there was a learning curve in order to bring in both of those things? I mean, you, you essentially were doing this for the first time. I mean, everybody involved in Avatar was doing it for the first time because historically nothing like this has ever really been done. But did you feel not so good at that at the beginning and then really good at that towards the end? What were the things that helped you get there?
Speaker 3 00:34:26 I think I might have done a version of it prior as well, not for this character, but maybe for something else. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I've had experienced it with lower stakes and with a lower stakes scene. And I've also watched, um, different cast members have to do this mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so I knew what was involved and I think yeah, just knowing the language and that was, that was the biggest jump. I think we had some cue cards there in case, but you're also trying to angle, I was trying to obviously like match my angles that I did and the direction of my face and what emotion I was doing. So, whoa. I think those were the, the more, more challenging parts. But luckily I had been working on it for, you know, a couple years. Uhhuh,
Speaker 0 00:35:17 <affirmative>, <laugh>. Right. So it's not like you had, or did you like, have time to rehearse that capture? Like you, I'm assuming you get into a, like on a sound stage or in a booth and you have what, like eight hours to knock out this scene and you try this little bit or you try this other little bit and then you try 'em all together. Is it like you would rehearse and shoot a dance scene or different?
Speaker 3 00:35:48 Hmm. My experience was, we, yes, we, if I'm remembering correctly, we watched, we watched the scene play out, not section maybe like little chunks for each line mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then I basically it would play in English mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but with everything that's going on on the scene. And I would repeat and try and match. So that's where like my dance brain really helped.
Speaker 0 00:36:16 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:36:17 Because you know, when someone says shoulder slightly to the left corner, you're like, oh,
Speaker 0 00:36:23 <laugh>, I get that. I can do that. Or even simply the, the ability to watch and then do mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like that was a, that's how we learned to dance that most of us, not all dancers, but like, yeah. You, you see, and then you do, um, and, and we see and we do and recreate and we redo and we redo and we make tiny adjustments and we do again and have, I think great stamina <laugh> for like rehearsal. Like most of the dancers I know love to rehearse. Most of the actors I know do not love to rehearse. So, and I think also dancers take notes quickly. It makes a lot of sense why a dancer would be a perfect fit for that role. Although certainly not on most people's radar when they're like taking jazz class at the studio in Calgary, like thinking I'm gonna do mocap for the biggest movie ever made. That's super. And even
Speaker 3 00:37:16 Like moments where, you know, when I was doing some like more movement based stuff mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it was mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it was very important when we were figuring out the shot and it was important to step right there mm-hmm. <affirmative> on that big piece of wood, like you have to step there. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, things like that, like, obviously came easy to me because it, it was more like choreography, but then you still have to make it in the character and not a dance.
Speaker 0 00:37:42 And that's where we love and thank Cir Dule. I remember also actually my circ experience, which was, uh, different. I was never in a show, but I was the assistant choreographer to Wade Robson on, um, Chris Angels believe way back, even before 2017, very long time ago. Um, and I helped them circ do a couple of auditions, not for our show, but for other shows. They just asked me to come on the day and help out. So I would teach a dance section, but then they would ask for the improvisation section was like twice as long as the choreography section of the audition. And I remember the people leading that section asking for, okay, you're a cockroach and you're on fire, go <laugh>. And I'm like, oh. And then the things that people created or, or simply the way they responded to that prompt, you see people shut down and then you see, you see other different people completely take the lid off of what you think is possible and do something astounding.
Speaker 0 00:38:49 Um, maybe not always good, but you, you can very quickly see the yes people from the, uh, that's weird people. I think CRC attracts Yes. People who can go with the prompt and even elevate it, turn it up a little bit. Um, but I remember when I was on this mocap gig for this video game that shall remain nameless and cannot remember who made it or what it's called, but that was also strong. The ND eight, I don't know if I ever knew what it was called. Anyways, um, there was a moment where I had to die in every imaginable way cuz we're doing, you know, you made a movie that had a plot and a script. But in a video game where there's many different outcomes, every single character has to, you know, walk at every speed, run at every speed, die in every various different way, you know, look in love in many different ways.
Speaker 0 00:39:45 And I remember during the moment where I was capturing all of my various deaths, I thought about that CRC audition and people pretending to be cockroaches on fire. I had to, I had to dive of being engulfed in flame. And that was somehow available to me in my imagination. Like I had seen it done, so I just did what I thought it would be. I did it a couple different ways and they were like, awesome, moving on. All right now machine gun death. And I'm like, oh, okay, here we go. And it just, yeah, I think being a yes person in those moments is so important, um, in, in work and, and in life. And please don't listener take that the wrong way. You shouldn't all be good at dying by machine gun. That is not what I mean, <laugh> to say out of context, this could be very, very misunderstood, but it sounds like what you showed in your audition is that you have an, a great relationship with your body, with emotion and representing it with your body, with your face, with your quality of movement. And you're not easily thrown. A prompt comes at you and you're like, yes, I can do that. Um, and or yes, I can repeat that. I can do that time and time and time again. And that's so freaking cool. I love it.
Speaker 3 00:41:02 Oh, thanks. Well, and that's why I'm like so inspired by you and the, the seaweed sisters and Meg and oh
Speaker 0 00:41:08 Man, we're emotional, emotional beings. <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:41:11 Well, and, and to, to just create and not be af be unafraid and to be unafraid, to be silly. I think all of those things when I was younger were, were blocks mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 0 00:41:27 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 3 00:41:28 But kind of pushing past, I tend to like find out what my boundaries are or what my like blocks are and push, just push, gently push past them and it always
Speaker 0 00:41:38 Ends up pass
Speaker 3 00:41:39 Rewarding. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 0 00:41:40 There is a school of thought that's like run in the direction of your fear at full speed and I'm like, yeah. Or you could do what you just suggested, which is like push just a little like little bit past it, like 1% today and like 2% tomorrow and eventually find yourself in a place you never thought you would be. Exactly. And lo and behold, you're still safe. <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:42:04 Exactly. That's the other thing. You can push more and more as you feel safe.
Speaker 0 00:42:08 Yeah. Um, okay. This I love and also I should have led with this did not lead with this Jen. I haven't seen it yet. Avatar. Oh, I've seen, obviously I've seen the, the original, but it has been on my list of things to do since you and I had this on the books. I was like, well, duh, you have to, I mean, don't be a shithead, don't be a bad host. Like you gotta be able to talk about it. Um, and then I got covid and then all the life things happen and it is not one of those that I just am gonna go see at the regal around the corner that has bad sound. I want this to be so good. So I haven't seen it yet, but be prepared for a very, very enthusiastic voice note from me upon walking outta the theater. Cuz I have, I have a hint of what I'm in for. I do wanna ask, though, before I move into Mulan Rouge, cuz I love that show and I wanna hear more about your experience with it. But I do wanna ask, are there any, because I'm sure there are billions, maybe thousands of b t s, YouTube things that you think really well capture, what was really happening behind the scenes on Avatar we could include in the show notes? Have you found any that, that like you feel really sum it up?
Speaker 3 00:43:17 There's, there's a YouTube that they released, um, that the avatar like channel has released on YouTube and I think it's been shared a bunch, but Okay, I'll send it to you. It's, it basically is a little bit of an insight on what we do. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> how performance capture works mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 0 00:43:34 Um, and how actor centric it was. It's not like, like yes there was AI and machine learning and predicting and all sorts of software and technology use, but it's actor centric. Like you and your body were there for two fricking years and you had to come back if they wanted to make any changes. That's something I think is really cool. That's
Speaker 3 00:43:52 Part, like everything that the actor does, anything that any performer does, it's, it's there. That's what it is. Uhhuh <affirmative>, Uhhuh, <affirmative>. Like we saw the playback for our emotion right away. Of course like the facial part takes a little bit longer to lay on and what a digital kind of does their magic, but mm-hmm. <affirmative>, everything is what happened on the day on camera. That's awesome. And I think, I think that's the hard thing. Like you don't, I didn't know that when I first watched the first Avatar. I didn't know that people were behind them. <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:44:22 Like, oh, kind of weird cartoon.
Speaker 3 00:44:25 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. But there is, yeah, there's a YouTube. Um, that's really, it's, it's quick, but it, it shows kind of how that all works.
Speaker 0 00:44:33 Awesome. Okay. I will definitely link to that in the show notes. Um, uh, let's talk Mullan Rouge. Are you on the road right now? Where are you?
Speaker 3 00:44:41 I'm on the road. Um, I'm in Fayetteville, Arkansas.
Speaker 0 00:44:45 Okay. I
Speaker 3 00:44:46 Never thought I'd come here. I just didn't know, but, um, yeah, you've been here. I didn't, I mean, I've been to like la New York, all these big cities, you know, being from Canada.
Speaker 0 00:44:56 Oh. And now you're getting to see the, the, the middle
Speaker 3 00:44:59 <laugh>, the middle and the south or, yeah. Um,
Speaker 0 00:45:02 It's different. It's real different.
Speaker 3 00:45:05 Yeah. So we're here for two weeks and then we go to Texas. Okay. Um,
Speaker 0 00:45:10 Also
Speaker 3 00:45:10 Different. Yes. And we've done already that we've been on this job for a year, but been on tour for about 10 months and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we've like had the luxurious stay in San Francisco for two months. Luxurious stay in Los Angeles, where like I live, which was amazing for two months. Um, you know, Chicago, Denver, Minneapolis. Um, but yeah. And then now we're on these like two to three week, um, sit
Speaker 0 00:45:39 Downs, smaller cities. Smaller. Smaller stays. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what is your favorite thing about the show? About Mullen Rouge?
Speaker 3 00:45:45 Oh, my favorite thing about the show, it's just like this story that just continues and VO makes you like, you better hold on at the beginning and then just, it goes the, like the colors, the design mm-hmm. <affirmative> this music and the dance. Like all just really like, take the audience on this journey and then all of a sudden you're at the end and you're crying and, um,
Speaker 0 00:46:09 Well said Jen, I couldn't have put it, I I wouldn't have put it any differently. It is all of those things, starting with the story, hats off Baz. That's just one of the best. Um, and the how vibrant the film was, I think is something I didn't expect to be able to be duplicated in, in a live version. And they did it. You guys really pulled it off. It is so striking and it's, it's, it's loud, but you can still take it all in. It's a really, really special thing. I hope everyone gets out to, to see it live cuz it really is freaking awesome and you are freaking awesome in it. Um, how, how many more stops do you guys have?
Speaker 3 00:46:51 Um, well the tour will continue for forever. No, but,
Speaker 0 00:46:56 But your contract
Speaker 3 00:46:57 For, for the foreseeable future, there's many like dates that are coming up. Um, my contract is, um, it ends March 19th. I plan to stay until April 23rd.
Speaker 0 00:47:10 Okay.
Speaker 3 00:47:11 I actually just announced, or I just announced that, so it'll be weird to say that out
Speaker 0 00:47:18 Loud. Oh my goodness. Okay. Look at how exclusive drop on the podcast <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:47:24 But I'm excited like to enjoy these like next few months and with this amazing cast and I've just, I've just had the best, best time.
Speaker 0 00:47:34 I love it. I'm so glad to hear it and I'm glad that you are getting to be seen your face, your body, your talent. Um, that is something that I think can or might potentially, you know, you feel a little bit unsung, um, in doing mocap work. Um, so I'm so glad that your wonderful self is out there in front of people and getting to see the applause and the people standing and clapping. It's just such a special feeling. And after
Speaker 3 00:48:03 Covid, it was such a Oh
Speaker 0 00:48:05 My God, yes.
Speaker 3 00:48:06 Feeling to, well, when we started in Chicago, it was the winter. It was exactly a year ago Uhhuh that we were like starting there. Uhhuh <affirmative>, um, or at least starting our tech rehearsals I believe. But the first audiences that they hadn't been to a show, a live show in years, so years,
Speaker 0 00:48:23 The, I bet they were nuts,
Speaker 3 00:48:25 Those audiences.
Speaker 0 00:48:26 So nuts. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 00:48:28 <affirmative>,
Speaker 0 00:48:29 You guys were, it was sold out in LA when I came to see you guys here. PE the house was packed and LA crowds can be hot or cold in my experience. You either get a lot of attitude, like tough to impress too cool for school or they're like so down to have a good time. And I feel like it was the latter. I feel like people were mm-hmm. <affirmative> like there to party. There were, uh, the couple in front of me and to my left were singing a lyrics, uh, uh, like sing a along song. Like you would've thought the lyrics were up there in subtitles. They were, didn't miss a word. Slightly annoying. Yeah. But I do think it, what's cool about that and that I think people who are a fan of the movie should know the music is not identical. It's not identical soundtrack. There are new, there's, well, I won't say original music, there is an original song, but it's pop medley style stuff. But the live version is different than the film. And so that to me said these people have been multiple times. And is that kind of show that you'll see something different every time you go? Cause there's so freaking much going on?
Speaker 3 00:49:32 Yeah, we meet, we meet fans and just lovers of the show that have come multiple times because they, they wanna see different covers go on and then they wanna see
Speaker 0 00:49:42 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:49:43 The different costumes and, and it's really, it's really amazing to hear when we come outside the stage door, like a few of them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's some people that have seen it more than my mom and so <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:49:56 Wow.
Speaker 3 00:49:57 Yeah. I'm very impressed.
Speaker 0 00:49:59 Okay, let's, let's, let's wrap up here. It's good to know what you have done, what you're currently doing. And I don't, you don't need to take this next question too seriously. You probably see where this is going, but, you know, you've been now involved in some pretty long-term projects. CIR is no small stint, avatar, obviously. Like you fully probably like aged out the character and we're just grateful that <laugh>, it's cg. So you look the same as you did three years ago when you started, but, um, a tour like Mulan Rouge not small. What, what do you want to do next? Is it a smaller bite? Do you really love these long contracts? Is it more film? Is it live? What, where, where do you wanna go now?
Speaker 3 00:50:42 I'm so excited to pursue more acting and TV and film. I also love dance forever and movement forever. So I, I'm not, I still wanna do that as well, but I think my focus is gonna be driven to some more TV and film. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:51:00 <affirmative>.
Speaker 3 00:51:00 But I also think for myself, I, circus Duly was my biggest dream of, like, that was my big crazy goal when I was younger and it happened pretty early in my life. Like, I got it when I was 19 or 20 Uhhuh <affirmative> and I quickly had to shift and be like, what else is next? Like, what else do you wanna do? Yeah. So I think that's how I usually try and think like what else is possible? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, what other avenues do I wanna experience? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, life is really fun when you get to do like very different forms of what you love. And I've been grateful to do you know, like who the circus <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:51:41 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 3 00:51:42 And where I've met like, the most incredible people at a, an amazing film. Um, and that was long term. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> didn't know it was gonna be long term and Right. And Mullan Rouge, uh, I, I know that a lot of my, my dancer friends in LA felt like that was a long commitment. Like a year.
Speaker 0 00:52:01 Oh yeah. Cuz we're used to like one day here, two days here, a three day shoot is like a lot.
Speaker 3 00:52:07 I know. You're like books for the whole three days, the whole week you're
Speaker 0 00:52:10 Done. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 3 00:52:12 For me, I I I don't, the process is so fun for me that it doesn't feel that long at all.
Speaker 0 00:52:18 Cool. Yeah. I hear you. I think you and I share that like, you know, the tier three goal, the big, big goal happened relatively early for me too. I just, I wanted to be a backup dancer and that happened for me. I, I turned, I turned 21 on my first world tour with Justin Timberlake. And it did, it took me several years to recalibrate my goals for myself. And I think it, maybe this sums it up. I was doing a q and a panel for amda, uh, the performing arts school here in Los Angeles. And somebody asked, how do you transition? You know, you, you've had like many different phases of your careers, how do you transition? And I've responded by saying, transitions in life are just like transitions in dance. There's so many different ways to do it. You can fall, you can literally go from 100% weight on the left leg to 100% weight on the right leg with no transition at all. You just fall into a thing. Like you fell into speaking mocap and doing F D R F D R, facial,
Speaker 3 00:53:24 F P F P R F
Speaker 0 00:53:26 P R. What is, what is the P stand for
Speaker 3 00:53:29 Performance
Speaker 0 00:53:30 Performance recording. So there's an audio performance recording and facial performance recording. Thanks for
Speaker 3 00:53:36 That. I guess if we say F P R, because it's all encompassing, not just, not just your voice. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's your voice. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> plus the face.
Speaker 0 00:53:42 Okay. And ADR usually happens if you have to capture audio after the fact mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So you go and you're watching what was visually captured and you're having to recreate the, the audio, which
Speaker 3 00:53:52 You have to do as well, but it was just for like little bits.
Speaker 0 00:53:56 Right? Yeah. Um, so you, you kind of jump transitioned into a few of these things. But then there are other phases of life, like, like I am in right now with this podcast, which started as like, I'm gonna just tip like little tip of the toe and then all of a sudden I've got like a foot in there and then I'm like kind of half of my time doing podcasts, kind of half of my time doing movies. And then I'm about to like, alright, leg, come focus on the movies now and let's just get a whole lot of podcasts done for a month and trickle 'em out for the next three. It's like, that's, that's how careers happen is the same way that dance happens is weight transfer, like attention transfer. Some of it's here, some of it's there and sometimes it's smooth and sometimes it's not. But all of it is, all of it is both. I love
Speaker 3 00:54:43 The way, I love the way you said that. It's so true. And to, and I feel like I always have to say like, you know, these are three big highlights of my life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but that's not to say there was many Pata beret, messy Pat Berets and Oh, things
Speaker 0 00:55:00 For me, <laugh> struggle.
Speaker 3 00:55:04 And of course everyone sees just to like go with the imagery here, but sees the big jump, sees this big like thing mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But yeah, I think we all, we all go through moments in transition mm-hmm. <affirmative> and it's about like seeing the big picture, but also like, you know, acknowledging the, the tiny step that you make in the day. That is totally, that's just gonna mean so much more in the future.
Speaker 0 00:55:30 Mm. Big steps or small steps. Big leaps.
Speaker 3 00:55:34 Yes.
Speaker 0 00:55:35 There it is. Well, thank you my friend for sharing the stories of your steps and leaps. I so appreciate it. And I, I'm celebrating you. You're just so wonderful. Thank you for your time. Thank
Speaker 3 00:55:45 You for having me. It's been a blast.
Speaker 0 00:55:47 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Okay. Talk to you soon.
Speaker 3 00:55:49 Bye.
Speaker 0 00:55:55 Wow, my friends. What do you think? Isn't she, isn't she lovely? Forgive me, shouldn't sing. Especially not when I'm congested. So here's what I'd like to say. Not sing. I think this idea of, uh, uh, blah blah, here's what I wanna say, not sing. One of my favorite takeaways from this episode is, uh, is, is is to think about creating unafraid. But that doesn't mean that you have to run full speed at your fear. It means you can transition, it means you can lean in or slide in or push ever so slightly beyond what you are super comfy with. Um, I don't think all of this, all the time has to happen 100% at one time, I really loved hearing Jen talk about her learning curve with F P R, facial performance recognition and how she had seen other people do it. And So she, and then she had kind of segued into doing it sort of in a different context.
Speaker 0 00:57:02 I think a lot of the times we're so afraid of having to do the big thing one day, but really all of it, <laugh>, there's almost always transition. You've seen someone do it, you've heard about someone do it. You've, you've listened to this podcast episode. Now we're all a little bit more exposed and a little bit more introduced to a lot of, bit more things because of resources like the podcast, YouTube, um, our communities in general. So I guess my, my big takeaway is to be less afraid of doing things that are new, um, and more interested in getting my feet wet at maybe things I think I have no experience doing. And I do think those little steps and those little leans in can turn into really big stuff like Jen's role in Avatar, like her moving to California in the first place. So gently lean in, see where your interests take you.
Speaker 0 00:57:57 Thank you, Jen Stafford. That was such an awesome conversation. I cannot wait to see Avatar. Holy smokes. How about you? Have you seen it? What'd you think? I cannot wait. I cannot wait. Please send me your feedback about this episode, about Jenin, about avatar, about all of it. Leave a, a review and a rating if you're loving what you hear. I love that. Um, and I love naps soap. I'm gonna go do that. I'm gonna go do that right now. I'm gonna keep it funky in the form of an app you get into the world. Keep it funky in whatever form you choose and I'll talk to you soon. Bye now. This podcast was produced by me with the help of many music by Max Winnie, logo and brand design by Bree reets. And big thanks to Riley Higgins, our executive assistant and editor, also massive thanks to you, the mover, who is no stranger to taking action.
Speaker 0 00:58:52 So go take action. I will not, cannot stop you from downloading episodes or leaving a review and a rating. I will not ban you from my online store for spending your hard earned money on the cool merch and awesome programs that await you there. I will 100% not stop you from visiting words that move me.com. If you wanna talk with me, work with me, and make moves with the rest of the words that move me community. Oh, and also, I will not stop you from visiting the dana wilson.com if you're curious about all the things that I do that are not words that move me related. Alright, my friend, keep it funky. I'll talk to you.