Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Foreign.
[00:00:05] I am Dana. This is Dance plus, the podcast that gives dancers a voice, choreographers a face, and all artists a co pilot in navigating their creative careers.
[00:00:16] Take that. I'm stoked that you're here. Let's do this. I just had a conversation, actually a full blown podcast episode thing with Philip and Mackenzie Shabib. And we were talking about being department head on their first feature film called Best of the Best, which comes out this month, September 2026. And based on the trailer, y', all, I am stoked about this film. Anyways, we talked a lot about power structures on film productions and within teams. The whole episode is worthy of a listen all the way through on its own. Go do that. But something came up in in that episode that deserves its own deep dive, and I am going to unpack that today.
[00:00:59] I must say, Philip and Mackenzie both are very good at seeing big picture and being able to distill big ideas into digestible bites. And I'm still chewing on this one. So if you are a thought snacker who wants to be working on films and TV shows and tours and on teams in general, on any team that's doing great work, then this conversation is for you. But first, let's do some wins.
[00:01:29] Oh, yes. Today I am celebrating getting to go to a private screening and panel conversation for Remedy in the Rhythm, John Boogs's latest film.
[00:01:39] Y', all.
[00:01:40] I have nothing but good things to say about John. I had a great time at Holly Shorts supporting John and the other filmmakers. There.
[00:01:48] I was joined by Words that Move Me community member Kat Heinen. Words that Move Me, for those of you who do not know, is my coaching community of dancers, choreographers, all sorts of artists, people who want to not be navigating this wild ride of creative life on their own. We do monthly group coaching calls.
[00:02:07] We do daily creative prompts. There are playlists. We have an Instagram chat.
[00:02:13] In general, it's an epic community that exists mostly in pixel form, but also in my heart. I'm smitten by this bunch. Widomcom is the name. The Widomcom is the win within the win. But getting to support John with Cat was such a treat. I will definitely be linking to more places where you can find John's work and rhythm in the Remedy in the specific. Now over to you. What are you celebrating?
[00:02:53] Congratulations, my friend. I'm so glad that you're winning. I am cheering you on.
[00:02:58] Let's get into this.
[00:03:00] Okay. My conversation with Philip and Mackenzie has me thinking about patterns, thought patterns and the behavioral Patterns that happen within teams, especially when pressure is high and time is tight and when powerful personalities are tasked with making art together and then selling it for money, AKA the production of shows, TV film, live shows, high school productions even. It really doesn't matter. Where there is art, money, a deadline and a hierarchy, there will be conflict.
[00:03:37] Like I am so interested in this, in. In conflict specifically, but conflict within the production of things. This center circle within art, money, deadlines and hierarchy, like the thing they share in common is conflict.
[00:03:55] So let's like take a look at those individual circles before we look at the behaviors that exist in the center circle.
[00:04:03] Art in and of itself is subjective, right? But on a creative project or production, we must make decisions about what is best.
[00:04:12] So art is subjective, but there is a best or a less best or a better and a worse opportunity for conflict.
[00:04:22] Money, obviously budgets are subjective in that. Sorry, objective. Budgets are objective. And that it is what it is.
[00:04:30] But let's be honest. Is it ever enough? Is it ever what you want it to be? No. And while we're here discussing enoughness, why don't we go ahead and assign values, different values to different people, y'. All. Ripe opportunity for conflicts.
[00:04:46] Marriages end because of money. Nations go to war because of money.
[00:04:50] Money.
[00:04:51] Well, religion and wars is a different. That's a whole other podcast. We'll let somebody else do that anyways.
[00:04:58] Money ideas around money. Ripe for conflict deadlines. Kind of similar to money and budget. A deadline is neutral. It's a number on a calendar, right? That's a deadline, a wrap date, a release date, whatever. It isn't good, it isn't bad. It's just a date set in time. But for productions, it's usually like one size tighter than you want it to be.
[00:05:22] And then there's this whole like, it can move thing, or it can't move, or it moves for certain people and you can't trust when it's going to move. I just finished production on a film that I was supposed to be on for one day and I was on set for six. There were actual conflicts. I had actual conflicts baked into this idea of the scheduling of this thing.
[00:05:45] Deadlines ripe for conflict hierarchies, power dynamics in general. One person having more value or voice or volume than others.
[00:05:55] I shouldn't have to explain it, but that's ripe for conflict hierarchies on a film set. In fact, all hierarchies are designed to be the way they are for reasons.
[00:06:06] On a film set, it's really helpful to have one voice right? The one voice of a director. Because if everyone was talking and shouting their directions all at the same time, it would be chaos. No one would know what to do and nothing would get done.
[00:06:22] The hierarchy is designed to minimize chaos, to have one deciding voice when there's conflict. And yet the simple existence of the hierarchy, right? A pyramid, even when you think about it, is supposed to be the strongest shape. And yet thinking that one stands above all others can be a destabilizing thought.
[00:06:43] So this is what I want to investigate. Where there is art, money, a deadline and a hierarchy, conflict will happen. And these patterns will likely happen too. Here's what usually happens.
[00:06:55] People usually think that it should be different during the production of a film. Dude. Even a two day music video shoot, even a small project, the number of times that my brain offers me, this should be different. It's is insane. I will give you just a small handful of examples. I shouldn't have been called this early, shouldn't have been called in today at all. They should have told me about that sooner. They shouldn't be asking me to dance on that floor.
[00:07:23] They shouldn't be asking me to wear this. I shouldn't have eaten what I ate last night if I knew I was going to wear this. They shouldn't have the spotlight. They shouldn't have the power. They shouldn't be using their power that way.
[00:07:34] These are just the small handful of light, loose examples that I may or may not have experienced myself. The shoulds and the shouldn'ts almost always happen when we combine the making of art with a budget, with a deadline, and with a hierarchy.
[00:07:51] The other thing that will happen is people will feel like it's personal even when we know intellectually that it isn't personal.
[00:08:02] This happens so often. It happens to me and I even am conscious and sensitive to it. I know how to manage my mind. And still my brain will offer me. You suck. It's because you suck.
[00:08:15] When it could have been 9,000 other reasons that the criticism came. A lot of times people will feel wounded if a section of their work gets cut or when they're seen gets cut. I booked a Super bowl commercial once, my one super bowl commercial, and wound up like on the cutting room floor. I am in the commercial zero. And I know that that could have been for 18,000 reasons. But somewhere in the back of my head there was a voice, There is a voice that says it's because I wasn't good enough. My work wasn't good enough.
[00:08:49] Another example, I don't know if it's Just me. I probably do it as often as people do it to me. But getting interrupted, it's a fact of our world.
[00:09:00] I've been interrupted on set more times than I can count. And when I get interrupted, I feel frustrated and underappreciated, even though I know I'm here because I'm appreciated. Time is tight. Somebody just needed to get their thought out. Getting interrupted happens. But when it does is it can be hard to remind yourself that it isn't personal. Because, let's be honest, sometimes it is, but not all the time.
[00:09:26] Another time. Another example. Feeling self conscious when you've given an opinion and person in charge asks for someone else's opinion after.
[00:09:35] Have you felt this before? Oh, my God. Somebody asks for your opinion on a thing and you give it and then they ask for another one. I. Oh, man. When that happens to me, I stop having valuable opinions. I stop trusting my opinions. And that's a really tricky thing, you guys. Another thing that happens a lot is when you feel left out.
[00:09:58] Period. The end. But sometimes it's when you're the last to get information or when you're not included in a thing even if you knew you didn't need that information.
[00:10:07] When people have and you have not, it's really easy to make it personal.
[00:10:13] Being cut off, being the last to know, having your work wind up on the cutting room floor. These are the facts of our world.
[00:10:21] We know that will happen and we know that it's not personal.
[00:10:26] And yet it still stings sometimes.
[00:10:30] And when the sting of thinking it should be different and feeling like it's personal, when those things override the desire to serve the project, a big problem happens, big conflict happens. Teams turn on each other. Communication gets inflammatory. That's the word. I. I have felt this, I have seen this. I have felt. I have fallen into this type of thinking before.
[00:10:54] And what breaks the cycle is separating your thoughts from the facts and remembering that the opposite might be true is as likely to be true. Yes. Is it possible that my dancing was the reason why I'm on the cutting room floor of the super bowl commercial?
[00:11:13] Possible. It's possible that I was bad. Is it also possible that the star of the spot, Halle Berry, was threatened by how high energy and great the dance section was and she felt that that was taking away from her shine? Is that possible?
[00:11:28] Yeah, that's totally possible. I don't know if it's likely, but is it possible? Totally. Is it possible that I was interrupted because somebody couldn't hear me talking or somebody had a really, really good idea. And. And I just simply wasn't landing the plane. Is that possible? Yeah, totally. Is it possible that they don't respect me and my voice? Possible. But is it possible that they really, really respect me and are at home right now kicking themselves in the butt for being so rude and speaking over me? Totally possible.
[00:11:57] Is it possible that I was the last person to find out that the information because person in charge doesn't think I need to know?
[00:12:06] Possible. Should I be offended by that? Not necessarily. Is it possible that they really wanted me to know and got distracted when they were firing off the text? Totally possible.
[00:12:14] It's very possible that the thing that you aren't thinking is the thing.
[00:12:19] It's as likely, actually.
[00:12:21] So I find myself breaking through these traps when I separate my thoughts from my facts and when I remember that the opposite of what I'm thinking is, is just as likely to be true. We've been looking at this hierarchy thing, all of the examples of the hierarchy, through the lens of being at the base of the pyramid, which is where I usually operate, right? Boots on the ground in support of vision.
[00:12:47] But leaders, those at the top, the director of the film, the producer of the film, the creative producer of the film, the heads of department are not impervious to these thoughts and feelings.
[00:12:58] I have seen people with tons of power fully imagine that the people working for them are deeply dissatisfied and on the verge of overthrowing them.
[00:13:09] Like, while the opposite is true, while all of the worker bees are like at home talking about how great they are, like, it's as likely that leaders are shoulds and shouldn'ting and taking things personal even though they know they shouldn't. And that is also key, my friends.
[00:13:30] If I could do my best, Philip Shabib, and distill this big idea into a digestible bite, I would say that thinking it should be different is a trap.
[00:13:39] Unless you can really mental gymnastics yourself into an unrighteous learning type of space of thinking, oh, this could be different. Or oh, I might try to do it differently, or how might I do it different? That's different. Shoulds and shouldn'ts. You know the ones.
[00:13:56] These are the kinds of thoughts that come with your arms crossed.
[00:14:01] Those are a trap.
[00:14:03] Taking things personally is always an option. You could literally take it personally 100 of the time. And there might be learning there too, right? A lot of good growth can come from being self aware and maybe self critical. But y', all, it is exhausting and it is a trap.
[00:14:19] Learning stops happening and work stops getting better when you Stop having empathy for the person on the other side of the conversation and on the other side of the pyramid.
[00:14:30] So if you can stop the cycle of the shoulds and shouldn'ts, if you can remind yourself that it isn't personal, if you can have empathy for the person on the other side of the pyramid, oh, my friend, that is when we unlock some really high value.
[00:14:48] What I got to explore a little bit in my conversation with Philip and Mackenzie is that teammates, the best teammates, are the ones who can be honest, who aren't afraid of voicing a disagreeing point of view, and they aren't afraid of giving criticisms, and they don't shut down when criticisms come towards them or when they are disagreed with, AKA the They are people who manage their minds, who can separate thoughts from facts and regulate and own their emotions, people who can disagree, people who can be the ones to initiate conflict in a healthy way and also not get stifled when conflict is directed at them like, those are the best teammates. If you can be empathetic on top of that. Ooh, now we're cooking, man. Friends, this is all still in draft, by the way. These are very new thoughts.
[00:15:44] But I don't think there's a problem here with the way that things are, with these patterns that I've noticed. But if there was a problem, if, say, we wanted more effective, more teams more often, and if we wanted work, that is people over product, where the product is still great, then the answer is more empathy.
[00:16:04] More empathy for the person in charge and more empathy for the people whose boots are on the ground.
[00:16:09] If you can find that, if you can find empathy for your teams and your leaders, and you can cut the cycle of the traps of shoulds and shouldn'ts and feeling like it's personal, y', all, if you can remember that the opposite might be true, that, my friends, really unlocks creativity in a way where conflict is fuel. Conflict offers more points of view. It offers more interesting work, it offers more interesting stories and different stories. It offers better work and better relationships. I could not ask for more for us as a workforce. So that's why I wanted to draft this with you and unpack this with you today. I hope the next time things get crunchy on set, you don't shut down. I hope you open up, don't shut down. Separate your thoughts from your facts. Remember, it isn't personal, that that sting will eventually turn into a tingle and you can focus on the needs of the project and on your needs as a human in the world. Also, also, if you need support with either of those. Your projects and your humanness reach out. That's literally what I do.
[00:17:23] All of this stuff is better learned in conversation than in seminar. So thank you for listening to me jab at you. But also, let's have a discourse. Let's be a team about it, shall we? I cannot get enough of this team dynamic talk and the role of conflict and creativity. This shit lights me on fire, dude. Let's talk about it.
[00:17:43] Let's talk. But let's also Keep it funky.
[00:17:46] Glad you came. Click the bell for notifications. Subscribe Leave a review or rating Download the episodes. Also download. I always forget to say that, but most of all, keep it funky and empathetic.
[00:18:00] Bye Dance is produced by me with the help of many Big big big big. Love to our Executive assistant and editor Riley Higgins. Music is by Max Winnie, logo and brand design by Bri Reitz. Our communications team consists of Ori Vajadares and Sydney Richardson, and we've got extra help from LMU intern Carly Clayton. If you're digging the podcast, please leave a review or rating. Also, if you want to connect with me and the many marvelous members of the Words that Move me community, visit danceplus podcast.com if you're curious to know more about me and all the stuff I do outside of the podcast, visit thedanawilson.com.
