Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Welcome to the podcast. I'm Dana. I'm stoked about this episode because you get to be third wheel on my first friendship date with Tally. I've been a fan of hers from a distance for a very long time.
We have kind of been orbiting each other's worlds and friend groups, but this is the first time we're sitting down and talking shop. And Tally is so exceptional in her skill set, in her point of view, in her ability to articulate complex things.
She has danced for some of my favorites. FKA Twigs, Kylie Minogue, Rihanna and Pink just to name a few. But she is a self proclaimed B level dancer and I'm just like you're. You gotta be kidding me.
She is also an agent. She is the founder and facilitator of identity ideas industry which we're about to talk about at length, but nowhere near length enough. She's special. You should listen. I'm jacked about this. But first, let's do a win.
Today I am celebrating. I have finger guns for my win today. I don't know. Today I'm celebrating remembering that I have hands down the best grocery store sushi, like six minute drive from my house. Whole foods might boast a good looking sushi, but it is going to be like $17 for a good roll. And it's fine. Like it's fine.
Farm boy. Hazeltine and Riverside.
11.99 for six pieces of exceptional sushi. Maybe 12.99 for a roll.
Unfucking real. Unfucking real. I, Riley and I went after she picked me up from the airport the other day and I was like, oh yeah, farm boy, that sounds good. I got it home. And I was like that's better than some restaurant sushi I've had. So celebrating you, farm boy. Love you so much. If you're in the valley, go pay them a visit. How about you? What? Celebrating.
Congratulations, my friend. So glad that you're winning and so excited to introduce you to my new friend, Tally. On your marks, get set, go. I'm not prepared for a dance.
Is that the audition is that the audition dance that we did in the episode? I can't remember.
I think it was okay. I think we're good.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: Hello.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: That voice though.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: The actor.
[00:02:41] Speaker A: Oh my gosh.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: Give me a radio. A nighttime, a night drive radio show.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: Such a night drive radio voice. Tally, thanks for being here, my friend.
[00:02:50] Speaker B: Please.
[00:02:50] Speaker A: Pleasure. My real friend. We're meeting for the first time. That rarely happens on the podcast. Has that only happened one time? No. Like two or three. Two or three. Out of 260 some episodes. Am I meeting my guest for the first time right in this moment?
[00:03:05] Speaker B: Feels very special.
[00:03:07] Speaker A: But we've orbited, you know, like we've been in orbit and in conversation. I'm just thrilled that you're in LA right now. What. What brings you to this neck of the woods, actually? And where are you from?
[00:03:18] Speaker B: I am from southeast London, though I now live on the southeast coast by the sea.
And I am here because my school friend from southeast London moved here for love and for work about 10 years ago and she just had her second baby and I'm the only friend that has any other reason but her to be here. So I was like, I have other friends, I have class to take. I'll go.
So I'm here for her and the other things. The rest of the things, yes.
[00:03:52] Speaker A: Okay, cool. Thank you.
[00:03:53] Speaker B: Lucky me.
[00:03:55] Speaker A: I. I've been forgetting to do this lately.
I did three interviews yesterday.
Listener, viewer, you should know that the vanity is so real that I do change outfits in between.
Honestly, it's for the feed because I want to be. I want it to be broken up. I just, you know.
Anyways, yesterday, two out of three of my guests, I forgot to ask them to introduce themselves and I'm very curious to hear your introduction. It's. It's tradition on the podcast. My guests introduce themselves. Partially less work for me, but mostly because I actually love hearing how people introduce themselves, how they see themselves and what they want people to know about them versus what people might already know about them or what I think is interesting.
And because you are so multifaceted and have shown up in so many different spaces with many different hats on. I'm just curious to hear how you're introducing yourself these days.
[00:04:48] Speaker B: This is changing. So today will be an exclusive of this new way of doing it.
My new taglines are shape shifting, world building and community care. And I'm wary of feeling a bit or sounding a bit woo woo and ethereal when I speak about my practice because I am quite logical as a person. So I don't want it to exist in the clouds. But I feel like those three cover all the things. So shape shifting, just me as a mover, decreasingly moving for professional reasons, but still making stuff. So need to keep the body in there.
Game world building in me as choreographer, but also me in the UK scene, trying to help build that world and the future of that somewhat and then no big deal.
And then community care is part of that. But also I work as an agent and have done for 15 years now. And I see it as, I think it's a nice way to paint it as community care, as us as opposed to leeching, feeding. Yes, exactly. So those are the things.
[00:06:07] Speaker A: And when those two, when that relationship is simpatico, like I love my relationship with my agent. I love calling them and being like, yo, somebody just hit me up to do this thing. Could handle it.
Love you. Thank you. Like I. That feels so good to me. And when, when that relationship is in balance, both together do better. It's not one for the other. Yeah, really, I love, I love that relationship.
[00:06:32] Speaker B: It's tricky in the UK because we don't have for commercial work, at least we're non exclusive.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: We can have multiple agents, client agent, non exclusivity.
[00:06:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:06:45] Speaker A: That changes the picture quite a lot.
[00:06:47] Speaker B: Yeah, it's.
[00:06:48] Speaker A: How does it work?
[00:06:49] Speaker B: It doesn't.
[00:06:49] Speaker A: It doesn't.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: Okay. Actors and musical theater people, you have one, you do have an agent. But for commercial generally you follow the work as dancer because work doesn't get sent to all agents and they have the talent. It goes with the choreographer who then hits up an agent who then has access to everyone. Generally it's the price that is the deciding, the bartered thing which yeah, we've struggled with it over the years because if all agents have access to all the work, then the agent that will get the work will be the one that charges the least.
And then that's an us problem issue. Yeah.
[00:07:37] Speaker A: There's got to be a name for why that's illegal.
[00:07:40] Speaker B: Yeah. When Dancers alliance first started here, we really did try because myself a dancer who lives here, Rebbe Rosie and two dance other dancers from the uk we had dancers united and we were trying to do similar things but because of the non exclusive aspect. Just so hard to contain any of that.
[00:08:02] Speaker A: Yo, let's talk about it. I feel like one of the reasons is challenging the allegiance. For sure, that creates a unique challenge.
But one of the things that was so frustrating for me when I was like really heavily active in Dancers Alliance, I guess not frustrating, but exhausting tiring is constant reintroduction and constant education. Because our workforce dancers stay young, stay new, stay.
I mean we, it just our, our workforce majority is young people and the more young people come out all the time, the more you need to be reintroducing and re educating. And I think my advocacy work with Choreographers Guild feels a little bit more sustainable to me because the group the turnaround isn't quite as fast. Like we're here for the long haul. There's it's more or less the same group of people, always, always newcomers, but not quite the turnaround you see in the dance community. So do you feel the same or are there other unique, special challenges?
[00:09:07] Speaker B: No, I feel exactly the same. And also I worked commercially, but definitely B team energy.
Like my CV is really cool, but it's as a result of so and so not being free largely. Like that's when I'd be brought into the fold.
That.
[00:09:28] Speaker A: First of all, I love that you think that, but when I watch you dance, even on a tiny little screen lit, I feel big feelings. Like I would, I would, I would buy Burger King if you were selling it. Oh, I would tell, I would tell Amazon Prime.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess. Because if we're speaking about the tens, Dance wasn't commercial. Dance wasn't as varied as it is now. It was a very specifically full out jazz funky.
[00:09:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Especially over there.
[00:10:00] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:10:00] Speaker A: Hair.
[00:10:01] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:10:02] Speaker A: I remember being like, London is hair, Dance LA is funk. New York is raw.
Yeah. And that's kind of like how that sort of.
[00:10:13] Speaker B: There was no room really.
[00:10:14] Speaker A: And at that time I wasn't thinking about Atlanta or Chicago or Vancouver, which are definitely hubs now. But yeah, at that time it was like, oh, like Pineapple Studios in London is where you go for jazz funk and you've got to be really hot and thrashing.
[00:10:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
There wasn't much diversity choreographically, but also not in how a choreographer would let a thing be executed, which I have to say yourself and Jilly, for me, who can do full out, but it's just not where I want to operate. Like there's no.
I just don't think there's a need for it.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: Like, show me the need and I may deliver based on what some people.
[00:10:57] Speaker B: It is necessary.
Very rarely here I get.
[00:11:00] Speaker A: I find it's less and less.
[00:11:02] Speaker B: But when you're 25 and thinking that you've not really got a leg to stand on in commercial dance. So it would always be match her. Like there's another dancer here, Hachelli, who used to live in London and we would be opposite sometimes because we're similar height and she. She's full out. And it would always be match her. And I'd be like, why can't we match each other? Like, oh, why can't we meet in the middle?
[00:11:24] Speaker A: Why can't she match me?
Oh my God, I love that so much.
[00:11:28] Speaker B: But yes, turnover of dancers very high. And also my initial point, I didn't work constantly commercially and I felt like, why do I Care about this more than you guys. I don't even really work in this context.
I gotta go. Like it was too much hard work and the red tape with our union. I think as long as it the pay was above minimum wage it was okay. Even though the industry standard would have been way more so legally we could only go so far and that just got testing. So we found there were just other ways to educate and speak about what we thought should be the way rather than trying to change it systematically like that Just felt like too long winded for us.
[00:12:16] Speaker A: Totally copy.
Could you tell a success story like a moment where you as an agent or as a dancer put your foot down and saw production accommodate?
[00:12:27] Speaker B: Yeah, there have been a few. That our music video contract when we were working on it in 2012, it had last been negotiated my birth year in 1987.
[00:12:39] Speaker A: That's kind of poetic. I love that.
[00:12:41] Speaker B: And the rate in that was 150 pounds which is like 200 maybe.
And I think that was a.
I'm
[00:12:52] Speaker A: tapping now and I don't even know
[00:12:53] Speaker B: what tapping is, but I think it's like stim away.
[00:12:57] Speaker A: That's bananas.
[00:12:58] Speaker B: With a in perpetuity bio. Oh yeah, for sure. I think. And we did manage to negotiate that also X Factor and I don't know if it would have been Britain's Got Talent at that time, but those kinds of shows, they were wrapped up in a contract that made no sense for them and we managed to get usage folded into that, which was great. And as agent I recently had.
What is this?
Maybe it's not happening yet. I basically negotiated like twice the offer for a choreographer and that just feels good. Especially when it's like, yeah sure. It's like why did you offer that measly sum then if it wasn't even going to be a battle to get double.
And we're talking about I think 10k to 20. Like it's not chump change. It's like, oh, you just had that extra.
[00:13:58] Speaker A: Yeah, it's because it's a bottom line conversation and they a lot. Again, back to education. It's not just the community that we're educating. The dance community, I mean is productions who sometimes are working with dance a lot but oftentimes are not so educating production on like what a minimum is and what working conditions could and should be because they will try to get the lowest bottom line no matter what.
And sometimes all you have to do is ask. I love when all you have to do is ask. I love when they really just don't Know what I really love right now, though, is the Choreographers Guild has collected and discussed for a couple years now, but finally put into print a choreographer's handbook that whenever somebody reaches out to me, like, hey, I have a friend looking for this for a commercial for six dancers, blah, blah, blah, I say, here's the Choreographer's Guild handbook. Take a look through that. And it.
And it will let you know everything you need to know. And it really is nice to not need to be the bad guy. I think this is part of the reason why I love my relationship with my agent. I'm like, yes, talk to them. They'll iron everything out. I don't love being the bad guy. I don't know if you notice, I'm bright and it feels so good to have a bulldog in my corner.
[00:15:10] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:15:11] Speaker A: Or a bad guy like a boogeyman. It's not like the Choreographer's Guild handbook is not a boogeyman. Don't take that out of context. But to just say, oh, this is the industry standard that we've all agreed on and we have it. Oh, my God, what a beautiful thing. Covid was for that reason.
[00:15:27] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:15:27] Speaker A: Because people started talking. I don't know if you experienced this too, but choreographers who, for the most part in la, work separately, individually. Right. Really insular on our own little islands, started to talk like, oh, you got what for what?
And on that, you did who? And your credit was what? And you.
It was so nice to have each other.
[00:15:48] Speaker B: Yeah. That's not really happening at home. It's still very there. Just seems. And I've worked as you did with In. You were associate on. In the Heights. Right. I've been assistant and associate a fair amount. And you just get a sense that everyone's really insecure up there about losing their spot. So we're not going to share.
We are going to be friendly because we need each other, but we're also
[00:16:17] Speaker A: gonna friendly right here.
[00:16:19] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm only gonna tell you so much because you might swoop in. And I even found it as assistant in some contexts, like who I was assisting just seemed not threatened by me, but just, you want to keep your assistant and associate kind of small so they don't encroach upon your position. So it's friendly at home. But I.
I can see through it a little bit.
[00:16:41] Speaker A: I hear you.
I have been very lucky in my collaborations and in my teams to have not ever felt oppressed or like, yeah, stronghold, you know, like, kept that distance process wise. I've definitely felt like oh, man. I'm not able to be my best because you seem to really want this. And I think I do it the other.
Definitely have felt that before. But I just did a great episode with Jamal Sims and Will Bell, who talked about their dynamic and the way that Jamal, I think he's famous for this. He is notoriously famous for having very little ego with the work, with the credit, with the teams. And I think I.
I want to say. I know, but I do think that most choreographers have been dancers and there is a scarcity mentality baked in from having to scrap as dancers to. To still being scrappy.
And the thought right now, which might be more factual than thoughtual, is that there's not as much work right now. And so there is probably actual statistics that says there's less work right now, which is why everybody's holding on tight to what they got. And I get that. And it is definitely from my privileged position that I can be comfortable sharing the work, passing on a thing, not saying yes to everything that comes across my path because of my past, because of how I've put my money, because my mortgage is cheaper than what all of my homies are paying in rent. Timing, that was luck. That was timing that was like. I'm very fortunate to, I think, have a lot of reasons that I'm not quite as tight holding. But also, dude, actually this is important.
I'm selfish as fuck.
I love the feeling of giving somebody else work. I fucking love that feeling.
And if it means that both of us can be working, bonus.
[00:18:37] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:18:38] Speaker A: But even if it just means like, I can't do this or you're better suited for this, take it. I love the way that feels. So it is actually for me, and
[00:18:44] Speaker B: sometimes I want to bring up a specific example, but I don't want to.
[00:18:49] Speaker A: Code names, codenames, the.
[00:18:53] Speaker B: Some jobs just aren't for you. And that doesn't always happen at home. And then the trick becomes getting the assistant that it is right for. And it's like, dude, just hand. Just hand it over. Just say no to the gig.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: So what might it look like or sound like if you have a. One of your clients is offered a job and you feel this certain way, like, oh, I don't think you're right for that. I think the person that you're trying to loop in as an assistant should be doing this gig. Would you have a conversation with them about that? Would you encourage them to say or do?
[00:19:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I pretty much exclusively, not as a rule, but I represent black and brown choreographers who are in the minority. So there aren't many instances where a job would come in and it, like, not for you. Like. No, absolutely for you. Especially at home, black and brown choreographers are being employed to mostly tell black and brown stories. And I think that is Right. But also, can we just be storytellers? Because, please, like, I got to choreograph a production of the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, and that's not a story I grew up super precious about. Although I knew it, But I was really grateful, especially just coming out of COVID where race was so hot to be given the opportunity to just tell a fantastical.
[00:20:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:15] Speaker B: Story.
But yeah, I think even the right assistant or just giving a new assistant, depending on the scale of the job. I just think there's room to bring in new folks and not gatekeep until. Especially choreography at home with dance theater as well. Was just talking about it with Erica yesterday. Just like, I don't know that we need Matthew Bourne, Swan Lake every year. Like, shall we start telling some new stories and let new people tell them? Shall we just.
[00:20:51] Speaker A: If we insist on the same story, let's at least change the point of view.
[00:20:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
The resources and support is limited. Shall we look at who's getting it and not leave it until they're like, 85 before we change the guard?
[00:21:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
Thank you for that. Yes, please. Shake it up, I think, man.
Okay. I have six different directions.
[00:21:14] Speaker B: Yeah, we're darting around. Sorry.
[00:21:16] Speaker A: No, it's good, it's good. I really want to talk about.
You mentioned. I think you. You didn't say this, but you do also direct. And when you talk about world building.
Yes. Some of that is community. Yes. Some of that is legacy stuff. Yes, that. But.
Okay, let's go small scale first, because I've never done a project with you or even seen, like, I didn't see lion, the wish in the wardrobe. And now I'm really wishing ahead.
When I watch you dance, the world is way bigger than a human body.
In shape, in texture, in speed, in rhythm, in, like, it's. It is a. Like, it looks like you are in two places at once. An emotional, spiritual place that is clear. It's not like a foggy, like, vibey thing where you, like, are somewhere else. It's like. No.
Oh, you are clearly somewhere else, in control of that place and of me, the viewer. So I think you build a world as a performer, but I can only imagine how you do that as a director and as a choreographer. And I think this is the longest winded tee up. Stay with me.
I had Tony Basil on the podcast recently, and she talks about her job as a choreographer being so easy because she knows how to talk to freestylers. And I think you might share that superpower with her because you are a dancer's dancer. You are somebody who can speak many different languages and know how to get from people what you couldn't have ever modeled for them to do just by communicating.
Actually, that was the longest tee up. It was just a compliment. I don't have a question.
No, I do have a question.
Do you do that consciously?
Do you think of that as a special skill?
Because it's not just world building, it's team building. It's leadership.
Yeah. I would love to hear more about how you lead and how you build a world.
[00:23:22] Speaker B: Well, I.
First and foremost, like, I am a choreo kid. Like, even the foundations that I know were taught in phrases.
[00:23:31] Speaker A: Okay. In eight counts.
[00:23:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
There's. Everything's in a studio setting.
So I grew up drilling combos, and I did make.
Any pieces that I made were very tightly choreographed.
And I love that still. Which I think is the two places that you see me. It's like her. Yes. Where everything has a place to go.
[00:24:04] Speaker A: Hate Lee tuned.
[00:24:06] Speaker B: And then her. Who's feeling her feelings. And just in this free space kind of blacked out. But not because I only enjoy watching blackout dances so much. Or it's like, let me in.
So thank you for saying that. I might.
[00:24:23] Speaker A: Oh, it's clear.
[00:24:24] Speaker B: A person in every now and so clear.
But I took part in a professional development program called Back to the Lab, and a classical contemporary choreographer called Jonathan Burrows was one of our mentors. He has a book called A Choreographer's Handbook, which I highly recommend. Oh, my goodness. Yes.
And he did some tasks with us that just blew my world apart. Because freestyle used to really scare me. Like, it was something you maybe did for four counts to get from right that spot to that spot. And I'd still choreograph that. Like, I wasn't leaving any of that up to chance. Thank you very much.
[00:25:03] Speaker A: Especially now, if it's just 18 count, you gotta make it count.
[00:25:05] Speaker B: Even for auditions, I'd have four eight counts that went to every song. And I'd just be like, yeah, hit it, hit it, get it.
But I learned in that setting just the power of freestyle.
I think it's a really advanced skill to express yourself through choreography, which is all. That's already someone else's. And then that's probably come from music, which is also someone else's. And somehow you are showing yourself through that. And I think that's a lot to you called it.
[00:25:42] Speaker A: It's an advanced skill get through which
[00:25:45] Speaker B: so many of us are capable of. But I think freestyle just strips that away. It's still a response to music, but maybe a slice through. And I worked with a assisted a choreographer called Aaron Sillis for some years, and he was definitely in the business of world building. And I just saw the power of a room full of capable and intelligent artists. Just how little you need to give them to make a thing come to life. And I find that really interesting. Also. Holding freestyle sessions at home for the past five years, again, no one's prompted, but you create a space where they feel able to do what they would like with the sound or just the floor. I'm just like, this. This is the work. Like, that is the piece. And how loosely, how little can I do to bring that together is what I'm always trying to achieve. So that the artists feel like they're not part of the making of it, but just that they can take ownership of the thing. I'm aware that that could make me sound lazy and like, I'm just not trying to make the world. But I'm not in the business of let's devise as a group. It's like I'm even making it. I'm either choreographing it or I'm directing it. But I never want to a group to feel like, take an hour, make some mates, Give me everything you've got,
[00:27:17] Speaker A: and then I'll take the credit.
[00:27:18] Speaker B: Yeah. And then bring it back to me. So. And then working with actors and in theater, this was new to me. But there's another category. Movers.
Like, they're not a great dancer, but they're a really good mover. And I'm like, what do we mean by this? And I think these are actors with access to their bodies.
[00:27:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:39] Speaker B: Couldn't necessarily do an eight count, but they. They're up for it.
[00:27:43] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:27:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:44] Speaker A: You can tell them, okay, but do it a little bit more on fire this time.
[00:27:48] Speaker B: Yes. And it'd be like, oh, but that take. That takes a really sensitive holding because it only takes one prompt too many for them to just like freeze and no longer want to play.
[00:28:03] Speaker A: Too many prompt too many objectives does equal total lockdown.
[00:28:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Or just the one that they can't process and then you've kind of lost. So I think that helped me in dance, just how to.
How little to do how little to do.
[00:28:18] Speaker A: That might be the name of the podcast.
[00:28:21] Speaker B: How little to do is mantra.
[00:28:23] Speaker A: Honestly kind of related.
I. I think there's magic and again, I'm kind of with you. I'm a choreo kiddo. And I'm more comfortable freestyling now. But for a time it was pants pooping. Terrifying for me.
[00:28:37] Speaker B: Yeah man, I cried.
[00:28:38] Speaker A: And I have absolute reverence, respect and awe for the freestyle dancers that I know who can operate in choreography spaces.
And I'm. I would love to see more freestyle everywhere. I would love to be freestyling more myself and I. It's just so magical to watch the that can happen without a plan. Always blows my mind and I'm like there's no way I or any brilliant choreographer could have planned for that thing to happen right then. There's no fucking way. So I'm all for more freestyle in more spaces, but I think you have a unique perspective on this in that not necessarily being the best for everyone. So can you talk a little bit about like freestylers on Broadway for example, freestyle showing up in on contracts that are not built for freestylers. Like are we setting them up to fail? Is this good for everyone or is this bad for them?
[00:29:34] Speaker B: I think it comes with as does representation in many ways. It comes with a some learning prior to the thing for it to make sense.
I so with Aaron Silas we did some lots of work with Rita Aura for a time and Aaron employed lots of freestylers on that which was absolutely the right thing to do.
However, there were some practical skills that they just didn't have. So us going from a small rehearsal space straight to tech in the stadium. That stuff like that spatial awareness not there and that's limited time like that we can't. You can't learn then. You just need to know how to do then.
And that was really illuminating for me as to. Oh, there are.
We are doing them a disservice I think because it's not their fault that they don't know.
[00:30:32] Speaker A: Right. Why would they need to know that?
[00:30:35] Speaker B: And in theater as well, you know I helped get a few dancers from my community involved in lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and that's now an eight show a week tour situation. And you have to sing with the ensemble. Oh it's singing and your mics are live in the wings and you know that business, they don't know that cut tracks and like that turnaround on a two show day. Like those things don't come naturally to one and done choreo kids we do that showcase piece one time now. We might get on film too, but generally it's much more just we dispose of material sooner. Also, watching a West End show that's been on for five years and somehow they're doing it like it's the first time. Like that's a skill that we also naturally don't have like 100 shows in. It just can start to look a little tired because we're tired of doing it.
[00:31:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:38] Speaker B: So, yeah, I think those skills are ones that are needed and I think it's for choreographers and casting teams to bear in mind. But it is also, it is on the dancer to consider those.
Not those things because they don't know what they don't know. But what is this context and how does it differ to what I normally. Exactly that.
So I think there's room in it should happen. Especially as more theater shows have hip hop styles and street styles new stories in.
Because I don't enjoy watching a musical theater dancer doing hip hop. Personally.
It's not a thing that I'm too interested.
Yeah.
But yeah, there needs to be the learning surrounding it for it to be safe as a stretch but enjoyable and beneficial for everyone involved. Yeah.
[00:32:30] Speaker A: Thank you for that pleasure.
You've talked a little bit about professional programs you've been a part of. Yes. Can we gently segue to your program?
[00:32:38] Speaker B: Really can indeed.
[00:32:41] Speaker A: I think it's very cute what you are doing with the branding, with the IIIs everywhere. Could you talk a little bit about your program which I do have written on a note card, but right now I don't have my note card.
[00:32:52] Speaker B: Sci fi
[00:32:55] Speaker A: industry ins in identity. Identity.
How did I forget?
[00:33:02] Speaker B: Sci fi.
[00:33:03] Speaker A: That's my favorite one.
Listen this. I just am taking really long to say anything today.
I have to. You can cut this part.
But I have to tell you because we're becoming friends right now as a.
[00:33:20] Speaker B: Right now in real time.
[00:33:22] Speaker A: My ex husband worked at Disney and then he worked at Apple. And he's a very capable technical person. He's a machinist, an optical engineer, a hardware person, a builder person. But he is also an artist through and through. He went to.
He graduated with his degree in sculpture and then went to grad school for visual neuroscience. He's one of those like mega, mega types. And he hates. And I have borrowed this thought from him, the idea that story is king.
And he's just like, there are so many things that are more important than story. Why is everybody sucking stories dick all the time?
And it's like. And I Was like, yeah, yeah. Like so many things are more important than story.
[00:34:02] Speaker B: What are those?
[00:34:05] Speaker A: And ideas is one of those things interesting new idea? Ideas aren't stories.
[00:34:11] Speaker B: No.
Well, aren't they?
[00:34:15] Speaker A: I don't. I don't think so. Not all the time. I don't think so.
Technologies aren't stories.
Patterns aren't stories.
[00:34:24] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:34:26] Speaker A: Humans, as I sit right now, I have the history of my life, which you could tell as a story. But the complex inner workings of my body doesn't give a about beginning, middle, end.
[00:34:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:37] Speaker A: Or plot or character or setting.
And so I love that you care about ideas. Anyways, that was a long winded way to say I love the things that you care about and are putting at the front of this program.
Take the mic. Tell us everything you want us to know.
[00:34:54] Speaker B: Well, it came out of meeting Jonathan and experiencing how he facilitated and how he spoke about dance because it just widened the world for me really of how it was possible to make things and how it was possible to the different ways you could approach moving.
And I wanted to feed some of that into my class kind of choreo community.
So I'd start doing like little improv exercises before teaching combos.
And I was not an authority on any of what I was saying. They were just cool things I'd heard and wanted to share and see how they. How my community responded.
And then I had an idea to bring that identity piece in especially again as someone who in commercial spaces, I never felt like who I was naturally as a dancer was welcome in the room. It's like leave her at the door and wear this costume to fulfill this thing. Which is a skill that I enjoyed having, but that will do a thing to a person. Slash.
I was interested in how powerful, how empowering it would be be to yes, do that. But also as well as being versatile and clean and all the things like keep nurturing these particular things. Especially if a choreographer seeing those particular things and vocalizing to do away with them so you know what they are, so you could still speak life into them outside of this context. But no. Okay, put them in the bin. Got it.
So I wanted to. To be that person for my community and not do away with the other skills, but encourage who you are at your safest and when your defenses are all the way down, like how do you bring that into performance spaces and into them as makers? So that's the identity piece ideas is really just let's make things quickly. Like that's kind of all I'm really cared about.
[00:37:20] Speaker A: Concept to execution yeah, just generate.
[00:37:22] Speaker B: Generate the things. Because I realize how like a friend of mine, Stephen Aspinall, he. I used to think it was the laziest thing. He used to teach a combo and then we do it to different music and I'm like, no. But it goes with that.
How very dare you. This is beginner class shit that you're doing.
[00:37:42] Speaker A: Right, right, right.
[00:37:43] Speaker B: You know, let's do it a bit.
[00:37:45] Speaker A: But you're out of your stretching time.
[00:37:47] Speaker B: It was playtime, which was.
I was naive then, I get it now. But it helped me realize that the moves don't. It's not the moves that have meaning, it's everything that comes after. Which I suppose plays into your thing about there's so many more things more important than story. And I think, oh my God.
[00:38:08] Speaker A: Feelings are more important than story. Feelings are way more important than story feelings on their own.
Just any motion awesome game changer. I don't need it to have a conflict or a.
Or a arc.
Raw emotion. Just even just one of them.
And sign me up, sign me up right now.
[00:38:32] Speaker B: So I just want us to be doing stuff. Like let's just generate stuff and then we. Making it. Making stuff.
[00:38:38] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:38:38] Speaker B: And after all of that jazz. So that's the ideas piece. And then industry with me as agent with my work with equity, our union, it just felt like creativity as business should be a part of the conversation because
[00:38:57] Speaker A: we.
[00:38:57] Speaker B: And I. I didn't go to college for dance, so I had to take it upon myself to learn what I had knew as far as the business went. Which arguably so did college grads.
[00:39:10] Speaker A: Totally good point.
[00:39:11] Speaker B: Still don't learn everything they should be. But yeah, I wanted to insert that piece into it that used to be these are your rights. These are the rates and more kind of seminar vibe. But I was attracting a real mixed bag for whom that wasn't all relevant. Yep.
So we still touch on it a little bit. But it's maybe more Q A and also productivity mindset stuff. So it's kind of a one stop shop for building yourself as an artist, I'd say.
And again, it's 10 years old and we've had like almost 400 people do it, which is a cool thing. Some return but word of mouth, it's advertised very broadly so that it attracts
[00:40:04] Speaker A: a lot of different types.
[00:40:05] Speaker B: Different types. And those up for not necessarily knowing what it's going to be. Because we start every morning is the same every edition. But then we kind of spiral off into what the room needs.
[00:40:19] Speaker A: Needs and what the. And what the Moment is.
[00:40:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:22] Speaker A: Been around for 10 years. What you're teaching at the beginning hopefully isn't the same thing you're teaching right now, because the industry is certainly not the same.
[00:40:28] Speaker B: Yes. And then recent, well, three years ago now, started hosting my teachers.
So I've had Sean and Jilly and Meg and Larkin and Devin.
Jameson would be a dream, but it was Solomon, actually.
[00:40:44] Speaker A: Oh, fantastic though still.
[00:40:46] Speaker B: Caitlin Watson, Kerry Milne.
Just people that I've learned from because I. That through line's not too common these days.
[00:40:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, good point.
[00:40:58] Speaker B: My teachers are still active, so have at it is the thing. And earlier this year, I got to host Jonathan, who is really the reason why any of it exists. And he's like 65, cool and just the coolest. So cool. Yeah, I'm having a great time with it. I have insecurities around how it could have scaled, maybe, but I'm just one person. I'm just a girl.
[00:41:24] Speaker A: Yo, you're the greatest podcast guest ever.
That answer was like seven different well articulated questions worth of answers that I didn't ask questions to. You're the best.
Is it the burden of being a dancer who's always going to be critical? Is it that we're women? Is it what? I don't know what. But like, no matter how successful a thing that I have will be, I will have insecurities about how it could have been better.
[00:41:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:52] Speaker A: And that was the realest fucking thing that you just said. So thank you for offering that pleasure. It is tough, but also we choose it. And if I. If I like, I'm pretty comfortable with my life being my work. I really like that I live my work and that it fuels me and that I never feel like I'm dragging my feet to work. Like, I love what I do.
So I feel like the tax for that is thinking that. Yeah. But if I really made it my job, I could maybe we be better at it.
[00:42:26] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:42:26] Speaker A: Or it would have really crushed if I had like a, you know, really, like.
So it's fine. Like, I can be a little bit unsatisfied some of the time because most of the time I'm really just enjoying myself. And I do think that that's a trickle out. Like, I think Riley and I get feedback about the podcast a lot. It's like, that's the most fun I've ever had on a podcast. And I'm like, yeah, that's because it's not my job. It's just the thing that I do for fun when I like to talk to people about shit that lights me up and learn about what lights other people up.
So I, yeah, it's the tax that I pay is thinking that things could have grown bigger or faster by having fun at my work versus like really working at my work and having that growth at all costs like attitude about stuff.
[00:43:09] Speaker B: Yes, I, I know it's doing what it needs to be doing and that its impact is what it needs to be.
I suppose like 10 years is quite a long time and mostly honestly I'm not a very strategic long game there thinker person. So I have aspirations to get to autumn or fall.
[00:43:36] Speaker A: You even said it like an American.
[00:43:39] Speaker B: Yeah, fall is not a thing.
[00:43:41] Speaker A: Fall.
I love fall.
[00:43:45] Speaker B: My aspiration is to get to that time of year and then looking ahead to the next and mapping out all the I additions and then everything else building around that. Cool. But I tend to be working in when autumn comes and that time just doesn't appear. So I.
It's very.
[00:44:03] Speaker A: It doesn't appear.
[00:44:04] Speaker B: It passes.
[00:44:05] Speaker A: But I haven't seen it. It wasn't.
[00:44:07] Speaker B: It was there and now it's not. So now it's very much oh, in three months time I think I'll do one like that's just how.
How it's working. But interestingly now because I.
This is a relevant segue, but segue kinda I'd see myself in five to 10 years like in a leadership, a formal leadership role, be that artistic director or curator programmer energy. And I will need to be able to quantify or qualify I suppose the impact that I've had. And that's interesting thinking about it in metrics. Or that person did the program and then they went on to do this with that person. And I'm just doing it. So I'm not considering what's happening while I'm in the thick of it all. But I'm starting to see step back and be like oh yeah, we did facilitate that thing to occur. And I think that's been affirming and maybe quiet in the voice of we didn't scale up. It's like we've. It's. It's big enough. Like it's big in all the right.
[00:45:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
In all the right verticals.
[00:45:14] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:45:15] Speaker A: The data man, the data.
It's so fun.
Do you see that rewire that I did?
It's fun to work in a space where we are often working to measure things that are often not measured like impact, like even like a getting of a job or a not getting a job because we don't know why we are Fully all the time hypothesizing about our efficacy in this position. Like, I'm just always wondering, like, am I. Am I good? Am I not good?
So it's nice to find really hard ways of measuring a thing that you really think can't be measured. I've found in my work as a career coach that almost everything can be measured.
Almost everything can be measured.
If you. Especially if you introduce like, percentages into the game, like, I can measure my confidence for sure. I can. Absolutely. If I have somebody that comes to me wanting to be more confident in auditions, 100%. We can make data points of that and you can see growth over time. I am certain that if 10. If by full. You want to have some metrics from your program, with a little creativity, you definitely can. And you can absolutely measure things that are hard to measure.
[00:46:31] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:46:32] Speaker A: And I'm excited for you to do that and do whatever the fuck you want with that data.
[00:46:35] Speaker B: Will I be doing it or will I be delegating it to someone else?
[00:46:39] Speaker A: Likely be delegating.
[00:46:40] Speaker B: I hope so.
[00:46:41] Speaker A: I hope so too. Okay, we have come to the point in the episode where we've got to do rapid fire burnout round wrist roll with it is what we call it. Where is first roll? She's in her place.
She's cozy.
Rapid fire answer from the guts on your market set. Coffee or tea?
[00:46:58] Speaker B: Coffee.
[00:46:58] Speaker A: Dogs or cats?
[00:46:59] Speaker B: Dogs.
[00:47:02] Speaker A: Fiction or non fiction?
[00:47:03] Speaker B: Non fiction.
[00:47:05] Speaker A: Early morning or late night rehearsal? Ooh,
[00:47:09] Speaker B: both.
[00:47:10] Speaker A: Wow.
Do you take naps? How do you do both?
[00:47:14] Speaker B: I do not nap.
[00:47:15] Speaker A: No. Not a napper.
[00:47:16] Speaker B: Not a napper.
[00:47:17] Speaker A: Okay. How many hours of sleep do you get per night on average?
[00:47:19] Speaker B: Six to eight.
[00:47:21] Speaker A: Okay.
Majority speaking. What are you wearing on your feet when you dance?
[00:47:28] Speaker B: New Balance. Not sure of the model. New Balance.
[00:47:32] Speaker A: Okay. What they call models? The sneakers are called models. I thought it was just for cars. I don't know anything about the style of sneaker.
[00:47:40] Speaker B: Style. Do you say style?
[00:47:41] Speaker A: I think it will, but that's also car term. I don't know.
Edition?
Model. It's got to be model.
[00:47:48] Speaker B: There's no model.
[00:47:50] Speaker A: What model Nikes are you wearing?
Oh, these are the Air Max. I don't know. We gotta do a little digging.
[00:47:56] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:47:58] Speaker A: If you were to watch a movie tonight, what would that movie be?
[00:48:01] Speaker B: Oh, good question. Why did Hocus Pocus come to mind?
[00:48:09] Speaker A: Oh. Cause it's great.
[00:48:12] Speaker B: I would. I wouldn't.
Somehow that came forth.
[00:48:16] Speaker A: Yeah, it showed up for you. Thank you for bringing that forward because. Yes, there's not a bad time to Be watching.
I had such a crutch on that guy. The guy that was real life Banks.
[00:48:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, smoking hot. Favorite book right now. I know that it's hard to pick, but favorite book right now?
[00:48:35] Speaker B: Right now. I just read the message by Tanahesi Coates.
[00:48:41] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:48:41] Speaker B: That was brilliant. Yeah, I think he's just it.
[00:48:45] Speaker A: Do you have a favorite word?
[00:48:47] Speaker B: No.
[00:48:48] Speaker A: Can you sing?
[00:48:49] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:48:51] Speaker A: So jealous. What's your not superpower? I'll ask that next. But what's your super weakness? Mine is definitely names.
[00:48:58] Speaker B: I.
I can be a little impatient these days when it comes to making plans. That's quite specific. But I'd say that that something I could get a little looser. Okay with. I think it's cuz I don't live in London in. In the city anymore. So I'm needing to get organized and I got me some loosey goosey for.
[00:49:22] Speaker A: Got you a little more patience there.
I get that. What is your superpower?
[00:49:29] Speaker B: I think it's honesty.
I think I'm good there for better or. Well, better or for worse.
[00:49:36] Speaker A: But I think I love honesty and being direct.
Oh, you're very.
[00:49:42] Speaker B: Not everyone does.
I've been told a few times, and it's a little bit of a trope at home to be kind but not nice.
And I'm kind but not nice, apparently.
[00:49:57] Speaker A: I get that.
[00:49:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:59] Speaker A: I think it's a problem that most women are told to be nice most of the time.
[00:50:03] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't think anyone. I think when I was younger, I hadn't quite.
I think I led with the honesty and hadn't quite buffered it or surrounded it with any softness. It was just quite like a nice.
Yeah. Which was. Oh, she's a little unapproachable. Tally. And now I don't think anyone would say that I'm unkind or not approachable or not warm, but also prepare to be met with the realness. So which is nice. I think the balance is struck.
[00:50:34] Speaker A: Well now thank you for being an example of that. I strive for a little bit more of the directness myself. Okay, final question for you.
Do you have a quote, a mantra, a guiding principle, a proverb, a north star? The words that move you do I
[00:50:53] Speaker B: just say it and there's no context allowed or am I allowed to give a little.
[00:50:58] Speaker A: We're never gonna share it out of context.
So do you know what I mean? You can just.
[00:51:04] Speaker B: I can surround it with what it means because it might just be. It might do the. Oh, she's savage.
[00:51:09] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:51:10] Speaker B: Nobody cares.
[00:51:14] Speaker A: That's Perfect.
That's the perfect answer to this question. And it is savage, but it is also gentle. That sentence is a huge relief, actually.
[00:51:25] Speaker B: That's how I read it. That's how it was written. I think it's in Big Magic.
[00:51:30] Speaker A: Gilbert, right? Yeah.
[00:51:32] Speaker B: But I think it is a relief that, like, you're the main character in your story and, like, really no one else is. So just. Just do the thing.
Humbling. 20 years in, I'm trying to build a show as you guys are doing it too, and you're like, no one cares.
[00:51:50] Speaker A: Oh, no. It's like, oh, I hope not.
[00:51:53] Speaker B: I hope support.
I need the resources. And like, I've put the time in, like, give me the thing. You should care now. It was fine when you did it.
So new plan.
[00:52:06] Speaker A: Everyone care a lot.
Yeah.
[00:52:08] Speaker B: Care immediately. So when you wrote in the notes about hardest lessons. Yeah, that was kind of the flip of loving that nobody cares, but also being like, oh, no, rally.
But I still stand by it as a means of getting things done. Like, no one cares.
[00:52:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:52:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:52:31] Speaker A: It's a huge. It's a huge relief. No one cares.
When somebody said it to me at the playground when I was 7, was.
Was like a put down, but no one cares at 40 years old.
Great, great, Fantastic news for me. Yeah. Thank you. Isn't that funny? The timing of a thing in your life having a huge difference. I mean, the context, obviously, but thank you so much for sharing that, my friend.
[00:52:56] Speaker B: Pleasure.
[00:52:56] Speaker A: Thank you for being here.
[00:52:57] Speaker B: Loved it.
[00:52:58] Speaker A: Thank you, listener, viewer, for being here. Be sure to like subscribe Leave a Leave a Notification Leave a Comment Review Rating Like Subscribe Click the bell. There it is for notifications and get out into the world and keep it very funky.
This podcast was produced by me with the help of many. Big, big love to our executive assistant and editor, Riley Higgins. Our communications manager is Fiona Small with additional support from Ori Vajras. Our music is by Max Winnie, logo and brand design by Bri Reits. And if you're digging the podcast, leave a review and rating and please share. Also, if you want to connect with me and the many marvelous members the of the Words that Move Me community, visit words that move me.com if you're simply curious to know more about me and the work that I do outside of this podcast, visit thedanawilson.com.
