Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Hey, I've been hearing weird sounds in my own head.
Like there is a squeaking, like pressure. It's an ear sinus. There is an imbalance of pressure in my head. I am hearing squeaks and it's really strange. Welcome to the podcast. I'm Dana. This is Words that move me. And sometimes words that move me is just my ailments jacked about this episode because today we're talking to.
No, because today we're starting a new series. This is the first of several that I have planned, but the only one. This is the only one that I got scheduled conversations with choreographers and their team members.
Specifically, today I'm talking to Jamal Sims and Will Bell, who has assisted and associated in varying degrees on various projects with. With Jamal. They are so much fun to watch and to listen to. They are a family. They are a well oiled machine. They pull back the curtain on the creative process. We talk. Who does what. We talk Choreographer's Guild Handbook and the distinctions between assistants, associates, co choreographers and choreographers and supervising choreographers. And even in this episode, you will get to hear why Jamal doesn't love the term supervising choreographer.
It just happened again. Weird little squeak in my own head. Something's up, you guys. Something's up.
Okay. This conversation is epic. It's so much fun. I have not had this much fun during a podcast in a really long time. Can't wait to share. But first, I have a win.
Wait for it while I find it.
I am traveling to Oregon soon. Not Portland, but another place. Ashland, Ashford. Ashley.
I can't remember.
I'm finally. This has been a long time coming. Choreographing my first ever play.
And I leave next week. I'm really, really excited about all that I will learn.
That's my win. I'm going to choreograph and play in Oregon, actually. Oregon.
Okay, now you go. What's going well in your world?
[00:02:27] Speaker A: Yay.
[00:02:30] Speaker B: Congratulations. I'm so glad that you're winning. I'm rooting you on from the sidelines.
I'm rooting you on.
I'm rooting for you. I'm rooting you on. You can say that.
My editor just told me I made a mistake.
Rooting you on. I'm rooting you on.
Is that the phrase?
Yeah. I mean, you could say cheering you on and you could say what? Rooting is another word for cheering.
Rooting for you is one way to
[00:03:04] Speaker C: say
[00:03:06] Speaker B: they are both interchangeable. Rooting, cheering, same.
Wow.
Somebody came to know. On my wins today, it is A good dynamic. We do have a good dynamic. We would. We should have somebody. We should have Jamal come interview us.
Dunzo. Okay, we're back. Jamal Sims and Will Bell. And they also shout out Kai Martinez, previous podcast guests who works with them often.
They're giving us a peek at how they do what they do. And by the way, what they do is. Is epic that if you have a TV or have been to a movie theater in the last 10 years, guarantee you've seen. So get excited, get ready for the one, the two, the only. How am I going to do this when I have more than one guest? Ah, the two, the own, the dynamic duo, Jamal Sims and Will Bell.
[00:04:12] Speaker A: Oh.
[00:04:12] Speaker B: Do you know what that was? That was part of an Usher routine that Jamal choreographed and the first ever combo that I learned from Will Bell fused together in one dance. You're welcome. Are we in? Are we doing it?
We're in. We're doing it.
[00:04:26] Speaker C: We're in.
[00:04:26] Speaker A: We're here.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: Y' all are the first of a series of interviews that I am very interested in doing where we specifically talk about the choreography team and the team dynamic. I think there are a lot of people in the world who still don't know.
Yeah, I was about to say now we're in
[00:04:50] Speaker C: the what I'm saying, but you were in.
[00:04:58] Speaker B: Damn it. Do we have to do that again? That was such a good intro.
Okay. Welcome to the podcast. Joe. Jamal, round two. Will, your first time. So excited to have you. Long time coming.
[00:05:09] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: Cuz you've been on my radar. I've been a fan of yours for a very long time.
[00:05:12] Speaker A: Vice versa, my friend.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: Very glad you're here.
And I'm super stoked to be having a conversation with you guys about choreography teams and the team dynamic.
There are some people who don't know how to pronounce choreographer, let alone know how that happens.
Very rarely on the scale of TV and film does it happen from one person by one person for the entire length of the project. Almost always a team is involved. So that's what we're here to talk about today.
Before we talk nuts and bolts, though, let's talk about you and how you'd like to introduce yourself.
This is the hard part. Tell the listener, viewer, anything you would like them to know about you.
[00:05:52] Speaker C: Oh, wow. There's so many things, actually, I'm really a boring person. I am Jamal Sims.
I am a dancer, choreographer, director.
I've acted a little bit here.
And a brother and a son and boyfriend and uncle. Oh, uncle.
[00:06:16] Speaker A: Uncle.
[00:06:16] Speaker C: That's My favorite.
[00:06:17] Speaker B: Oh, my God, you're very good at being an uncle.
[00:06:19] Speaker C: That's my favorite thing.
[00:06:20] Speaker B: I see the stories, I see him, I'm learning.
[00:06:23] Speaker C: Those are my heart.
But, yeah, I love the arts. I've always loved arts. And I love life.
That's me.
[00:06:34] Speaker B: Thank you. Gorgeous introduction.
[00:06:36] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:06:36] Speaker B: Go ahead, Will. Good luck.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: My name is Will Bell, originally from the Baltimore area.
I'm a dancer. Yes, you are choreographer.
Really great friend.
[00:06:49] Speaker C: Yes.
He took my
[00:06:56] Speaker A: uncle as well. And an evolving human being, I would say.
[00:07:00] Speaker B: Growth all the time. Evolution all the time.
[00:07:03] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: Nice. Okay, so tell me how you two first met. What was the meet? Cute.
[00:07:10] Speaker C: I'll tell you.
[00:07:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:12] Speaker C: Because it started with me.
So I. I was. I was coming out of Greece, Rise of the Pink Ladies, to a show that I did on Paramount plus. And I got a call to do Beauty and the Beast, which is. Which was the televised live version of Beauty and the Beast. And John Chu called and he said, you know, hey, you know, it's this, like, small little project. You know, John is very, you know, you know, played it down. And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, sure. You know, I'm just getting up the job. I'll do it. Give me a couple months to chill out. And then as soon as I hit la, it was time to go, you know, it was, like, ready to. And so I was doing another live performance of Encanto at the Hollywood bowl at the same time.
So it all hit all. It usually does.
[00:08:05] Speaker B: Yo, I'm a pretty capable person. Like, I usually have a lot of, like, things burning.
What did they say? Fires? Yeah, I have a lot of flames. And that hearing this stresses me all.
[00:08:17] Speaker C: You already know. You already know.
[00:08:19] Speaker B: Okay, okay, so keep going.
[00:08:20] Speaker C: I was like, how do I avoid being so anxious about. About.
Because I think Encanto shot in November, at the beginning of November, and we shot at the end of November, so the rehearsals simultaneously. So it was like I was going from one, like, I think we were rehearsing in the morning to like, 4. And then I was coming to. That was Beauty and the Beast. And then I'd go to Encanto after four.
[00:08:45] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:08:45] Speaker C: And then I would be there for the rest of the day. So it was like two full rehearsals each. You know, the only thing I could think about was a team like, who. Who do you have to support you? Because I knew that I couldn't do it by myself. There's no way. And I needed a calm energy too, you know, so also with Beauty and the Beast, because it's a little More character driven and had had, you know, a theatrical component to it. I wanted somebody to work with me that I.
That I felt had those chops as
[00:09:23] Speaker B: well, that understood musical theater story, character.
[00:09:27] Speaker C: Absolutely.
And so I was. I couldn't think of anybody off the top of my head. And so I called my. Call the agents at msa, and I was like, hey, do you guys have anybody on the roster that could fit the description? And they said, Julie McDonald said Will Bell. I mean, just the first name that rolled off her tongue was Will Bill. And I think she had probably tried to introduce us before a couple times. I'm not sure. But your name just sounded familiar, you know? And so she said, you'll love them. Now at this time we were doing. It was during COVID It was like the end of COVID I think.
[00:10:05] Speaker A: 2020.
[00:10:07] Speaker C: Yeah.
Yeah. Where you didn't want people coming over your house.
We're still in the weird, like, thing. And so I was like, well, he needs to come over. We need to meet. And she was like, okay, when do you want? I was like, tomorrow. And I was still nervous because I was like, oh, gosh. VS KOBE comes over.
But I was like, look, you know, this is gonna be worth it because we have to sit and talk.
[00:10:35] Speaker B: You had to expand the team. You knew that you could not do this alone. You need to multiply yourself 1000%, and you have to trust the person that you're multiplying yourself with.
[00:10:43] Speaker C: Yes. Yes. And so I think you came over. I was like, hey, can you come over?
And, you know, he was like, yeah, I'll be there. And he walked in, and the. The whole thing was not to work on choreography at the time. It was just to sit and talk.
[00:10:59] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:10:59] Speaker C: You know what I mean? And so we talked for, like, maybe 15 minutes.
[00:11:06] Speaker B: And then eight counts started falling out.
[00:11:08] Speaker C: And then eight counts started happening. Now you tell me if I'm lying, because that's how I rem. Remember it.
[00:11:13] Speaker A: I remember we were talking for, like. For a while. Okay.
[00:11:17] Speaker C: Okay.
I knew I would lie. I. I find myself.
Yes. Yeah. Okay. We talked for, like, what, two hours?
[00:11:25] Speaker A: Yeah, it was about two hours. Yeah, we were just chatting.
[00:11:27] Speaker C: Oh, we're just talking about everything.
[00:11:28] Speaker A: About life. About.
[00:11:30] Speaker C: That's absolutely everything.
[00:11:31] Speaker B: Was that your plan? You were like, okay, we'll just have, like, a quick interview. Like, I get to know you.
[00:11:36] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:11:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:37] Speaker C: Yeah. Oh. Because you just. In these high stress environments, you have to know the person that's going to be with you, and you've got to trust them. And you've got an.
It doesn't. It's not just about the industry. It's like, who are you as a person? And it's kind of like a date. We were dating real fast.
Gave me speed dating, you know, I was like, we got to figure this out. And. And it just happened so naturally. We were just in a lot of, you know, his love for his family and his mom and his sister, and, you know, I'm like, yeah, okay. Okay. I feel comfortable with this guy, you know.
[00:12:10] Speaker B: Yo, I love that, like, your love of your family is what got you past round one of this edit. So many people are training to do the moves and the eight counts and thinking about the first cut being a dance, a dance cut. But your first cut was like, who are you as a person? Do you love your. Do you love your family? Can I tell that you love your family?
[00:12:31] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:12:31] Speaker B: Okay, you're in.
[00:12:32] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:12:32] Speaker A: Let's go.
[00:12:33] Speaker B: That's amazing. And that is.
[00:12:34] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Because I. I had been on his page. I had seen his work already, and I was already in love with the work, you know, Like, I didn't think that this was not somebody who was incapable of doing the job. I just needed to know that they personally were going to be able to help me stay calm and feel like they, you know. And so he also had, you know, he has degrees. He's a smart cookie.
[00:12:58] Speaker A: He.
[00:12:58] Speaker C: He's also a real estate agent.
There's a lot of things about Will Bell people don't know, you know, so those are the things that really, you know, that you could be organized. You know, those say, you know, the things that you need to know, you know, And. And he was well organized and he was polite and he was nice, and I was like, okay, let's start dancing.
[00:13:21] Speaker B: What did you work on first?
[00:13:22] Speaker A: Do you remember Gaston?
[00:13:23] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:13:24] Speaker B: No.
[00:13:24] Speaker A: No.
Yeah. It was. It was audition for the kids. So it was.
Be our guest.
[00:13:30] Speaker C: Be our guest.
[00:13:31] Speaker A: Be our guest. Yeah. Was the first. Yeah.
[00:13:33] Speaker B: That's a.
[00:13:33] Speaker A: That's a.
[00:13:34] Speaker B: That's a nice.
[00:13:35] Speaker A: It was fun.
[00:13:36] Speaker B: It was one of my favorite scenes, actually. Oh, you guys crushed it, by the way. I loved that show. I loved everything about it. I. It was very full. And so as I was watching it, I was like, ooh, the work.
[00:13:49] Speaker C: It was a
[00:13:52] Speaker B: monster. Right? That was a beast.
[00:13:54] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:13:54] Speaker A: Literally.
[00:13:55] Speaker B: So you found this person that you felt like you could trust and. And would multiply you and that you could be you when you were you somewhere else.
[00:14:05] Speaker C: Right.
[00:14:06] Speaker B: It is a luxury. It's like. It's. It's such a luxury to be able to buy yourself more time.
[00:14:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:15] Speaker B: By having a team. That's actually what it is.
[00:14:18] Speaker C: It's so important. And, and the fact that, you know, Will was, you know, I mean, in my head I'm always like, you know, he could do this by himself. You know what I mean? Like, honestly, like that's kind of like, okay, you know, but also I knew that I've been in this business for so long that he was going to be able to learn from me as well. So I wanted to also offer that point of view is that I could also help teach him things about production and all this stuff that really don't deal with dance, you know, so hopefully I would be able to help him do that as well.
[00:14:54] Speaker B: So that was the goal when you said he could do this by himself.
[00:14:58] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:59] Speaker B: The look on your face said, no, I couldn't
[00:15:03] Speaker A: with everything. I feel I know now because I've learned a lot from. Because you are such a willing teacher. Yeah. I feel now I know that I'm more than capable. But like I said, we went beyond the dance steps and I think, you know, one of the things I've learned is how to operate myself when it comes to meetings with the higher ups or dealing with very quick stressful situations. You know what I mean?
[00:15:27] Speaker B: Eight counts. You knew he could do the eights from the beginning, before he even came over to your house.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: Yeah, but I think, I think the biggest thing that I've learned from him is just to just be malleable, you know, and not be married.
Because I think, yeah, he's like, he's literally just, all right, this is not working cool. And it's just no stress. He's just like Gandhi on the job. I'm just like, wow, you know, and
[00:15:57] Speaker B: Gandhi on the job. It's so funny you say that. Cuz I agree. I have. Don't tell him. I have a mantra. It's not a mantra. It's an old thing. But what would Jesus do? Do you remember W W jsd?
It truly is a guiding principle in my daily working life because part of it is the role with it. Part of it is the know when to pivot. Part of it is like, you know, kind of being unflappable in the face of high stakes situations and a lot of pressure. And some of that comes from when you've been doing this for such a long time. There are very few things, I think, that really feel high pressure to you versus somebody who is not as experienced.
[00:16:37] Speaker A: Right.
[00:16:37] Speaker B: A lot of things feel High pressure. You know, the difference between, like, a do or die moment and a common kind of stressful thing. Yeah. So. Oh, man, I forgot where I was going with that.
[00:16:48] Speaker C: Malleable. We're rolling.
[00:16:49] Speaker A: Right?
[00:16:50] Speaker B: Right.
[00:16:50] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:16:50] Speaker C: Yes. Okay, so tell me more about myself, something you like about me.
[00:16:59] Speaker B: Not only.
And you're supposed to not be listening.
Not only do you roll with it, but the smile on his face says that.
It's not that deep, you guys. And also, it's a. Talk about luxury.
To be able to do what you love for a living is a gift.
[00:17:21] Speaker C: Oh, my God.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: And so, yes, I'm smiling, and it's an option.
[00:17:26] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:17:26] Speaker B: All times. Even. Even in those 1% of do or die moments that feel like they are the end of the world on set. Yeah, you can smile, dude. You really can. I'm gonna kick myself today when I hear my own voice say this, because I'm gonna be feeling this just like.
[00:17:42] Speaker C: But it's okay to feel that. Like, I think that's a part of it. Like, we're gonna feel anxious if we're gonna feel like, oh, this guy. This has to work. And, you know, and even when you're doing a puzzle and. And you keep putting this one piece in that just doesn't fit.
You know what I mean? You're trying to fold up the corners and trying to make it.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:02] Speaker C: You know, at some point, you're gonna have to say, you know what?
[00:18:05] Speaker B: This is not the right piece.
[00:18:06] Speaker C: And it's okay. We can go back and we get. We figure it out, and it's going to be better than what it was. And I think that that's really what I've.
I don't know if mastered is the word, but also, it's the pivot that I. I am most proud that I don't attach my ego to.
To something that I've created. It has to be this. Yeah. No, because usually the beauty comes when you think that that's what it is, and then it's. Yeah. Oh, no. It was this all along. Look at that. And, you know, so that's that. I mean, enough about me, but that's kind of how we started, right?
[00:18:45] Speaker B: Nice. Oh, that's beautiful.
[00:18:48] Speaker A: The.
[00:18:48] Speaker B: The know when to pivot. The say yes. The truly see someone human. Human stuff.
[00:18:54] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:18:55] Speaker A: It was interesting because it felt like after, like, our conversation for two hours, we had talked about any and everything under the sun, and I was like, I feel like I've known personally, like, I've known who you were forever, but I was like, I feel like we've been friends forever. It was. Even when we started working, like, it was just. It was like, this has been, like, my closest friend for a couple of years. Like, that's what it felt natural, you know?
[00:19:16] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree.
[00:19:18] Speaker B: Friendship first.
[00:19:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:19] Speaker B: It is a relationship, y'. All. Like, it's a relationship.
[00:19:22] Speaker C: You're married to that person.
[00:19:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:24] Speaker B: Yes. Collaborative relationships, sometimes even more intimate than a date, than dating a person.
[00:19:30] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:19:31] Speaker B: Like, they're seeing your values, your taste, your. You at zero.
[00:19:35] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:19:35] Speaker B: At 100, you in leadership, you in taking direction.
[00:19:39] Speaker A: Oh, my God.
[00:19:40] Speaker B: Oh, my God. It's very cool.
[00:19:42] Speaker C: You're right.
[00:19:42] Speaker B: Okay, so workflow wise, job comes to Jamal. Jamal decides I need to multiply myself.
[00:19:49] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:19:50] Speaker B: You take a look at the landscape of people who might be able to do that. You decide this person's that person, and then you make up some mates. You're like, yeah, this fits. Then what? How do you divide and conquer what gets delegated and actually, maybe we should start with this. What was your role? Let's just talk about Beauty and the Beast specifically.
[00:20:07] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:20:07] Speaker B: What was your role on that project? Assistant. Associate. How did you.
[00:20:11] Speaker C: I don't know. You tell me.
[00:20:13] Speaker A: I was assistant. Assistant.
[00:20:14] Speaker B: Amazing. Phenomenal. Okay. And how did the distribution of work go?
[00:20:19] Speaker C: Well, you know, I.
I've never really loved letting the assistants do the work.
You know, as far as the steps come, I have to be involved in the. In the steps creation just because I do have a picture in my head of what I want it to look like.
And although I may not have all the vocabulary. And this is where Will was absolutely amazing.
[00:20:47] Speaker A: He.
[00:20:47] Speaker C: You know, he's. He's. I hate this word. Technically trained, but he has a background in ballet and jazz, so he's pulling
[00:20:55] Speaker B: from several dance languages.
[00:20:57] Speaker C: Absolutely. That I don't have, you know, and so I. Or that I should say I'm not proficient in. And so in knowing that, I will say, you know, I want something like this. And then he'll be like, oh, you mean.
And I'm like, yes, that's. That's exactly what I mean, you know, and so it felt like that was a good marriage. That and. And a good working.
It was the way we worked, you know, and I was there for all. All the creations, so I think with an assistant. But then for the assistant side, what I was looking for was somebody that could actually talk to production about dancers, costumes. If they're asking about dancer info. When we hire the dancers, who. Who are they talking To. And they're talking to Will. So Will has the liaison. Liaison, Communications.
Absolutely. Which.
It is so stressful. These, these, these production people could be. They could have a thousand emails. You could. You already know.
[00:21:57] Speaker B: I. Absolutely.
[00:21:58] Speaker C: I'll go to bed at peace and I'll wake up and there's a wall war rehab man in your inbox.
[00:22:05] Speaker B: In my quietly firing off all night long. Or not so quietly. But yeah, it's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot because we, our department touches every other department. Props has to talk to you.
[00:22:17] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:22:17] Speaker B: Wardrobe has to talk to you. Set has to talk to you. Director, team is talking to you. Everybody's talking to you, including the dancers. And there's 305 of them.
[00:22:26] Speaker C: And their agents are talking to you.
[00:22:28] Speaker B: Exactly.
So, okay, the, the communications management side of things. That was a big piece for you.
[00:22:36] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:22:37] Speaker B: Nice. And how do you fare with that task? Do you like being in email role?
[00:22:41] Speaker A: It was depends.
[00:22:43] Speaker B: But that was such a political answer to that question.
[00:22:49] Speaker A: But I will say, like your face
[00:22:52] Speaker B: said fuck it, but your mouth said it depends.
[00:22:56] Speaker A: But I think so.
[00:22:57] Speaker C: Slick.
[00:22:58] Speaker B: That was nice.
[00:22:58] Speaker A: But I think also too, like being the liaison also gives me an opportunity to, even though, you know, he might say it's not about his vision, to make sure that whatever he sees or envisions, you know, that I help facilitate, you know, that I become another channel for that through the other departments. You know what I mean?
[00:23:14] Speaker C: So.
[00:23:15] Speaker B: So you're. You guys have gelled on what the answers to those questions are. You know the answers to those questions. So instead of you having to answer them, you answer them while you're off doing more important things. No offense to answering emails, but it can be a full time job. They are coming 24 7, these emails.
[00:23:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And if there's something that I'm not sure about, you know, he's the, he's the boss. So I'm like, this is not my decision. Let me just send him a text. I know he's on set. Something else.
[00:23:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:42] Speaker A: And I'll just wait obviously until I get.
[00:23:46] Speaker C: Well, I was saying what we were doing, you know, doing those live television shows in a short amount of time, they don't give you a lot of time. And so, you know, to be able to create something worth the shooting.
[00:23:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:00] Speaker C: You have to free up space in your head. So I have to figure out what are we gonna be shooting.
[00:24:05] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:05] Speaker C: And so while.
[00:24:07] Speaker B: Enter the imaginative space.
[00:24:08] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah. We're walking into a blank canvas. Canvas a stage that production didn't know where we were gonna shoot anything either. So they're looking at me and I'm like, I have to be able to be on it creatively for them.
And then if will can help me administratively, then I feel like I'll have all the bases covered.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: Gorgeous. That makes a lot of sense. Like, this sounds like a kind of textbook or I should say handbook. The choreographer's guild, which you are co vice president with me. Hey, brother.
We have a choreographers Guild handbook that breaks down and describes the differences of roles and responsibilities for an assistant, an associate, a co choreographer, and a choreographer. And if you're interested in some light bathroom reading, I will include that handbook in the show notes of this episode. And you should. If you're a choreographer, you should send it to production of every project that you're working on so that people also know what to expect. But you're basically explaining a textbook relationship, which is, choreographer says, I need a thing that moves, like, feels like travels this way from here to here. Is this character, whatever, might not have the actual E. And as for it, you're helping with that. You're also helping to. But not in a room by yourself, having to deliver eight counts. That would be a co choreographer or an associate who is opera able and expected to be operating on their own without.
Without supervision, we'll call it. Supervision is a word I'm hesitant to use because choreographers are not supervisors.
Conversation for conversation for a choreographed episode, spin off episode, maybe, but we're not supervisors. We're department heads who have people in various roles of our departments to help do various things.
So. Okay, great job fielding that round of how. How the sausage gets made.
Because it's also different on project to project.
[00:26:11] Speaker C: It is.
[00:26:11] Speaker B: So you guys have worked together now on several projects. What was the most recent one?
[00:26:19] Speaker A: December.
[00:26:19] Speaker C: Yeah, I forget what the show is called.
[00:26:22] Speaker A: Stuart.
[00:26:24] Speaker C: Stuart fails the world.
[00:26:26] Speaker A: No, fails to save the universe.
[00:26:27] Speaker B: See, they could use a rebrand.
[00:26:29] Speaker C: My memory. I don't know. It's just hard.
[00:26:31] Speaker B: I get that.
[00:26:31] Speaker C: It's. It's hard for me to recall what I ate yesterday because he's. When you're booked like this, I want to say that that's the truth. I don't know if that's true.
[00:26:39] Speaker B: Wait a second though. Can we talk? Because you were saying earlier and I was like, what do you eat? You were like, in the morning, I'm at this rehearsal until 4, and then from 4 till probably 10, you were somewhere else. How do you take care of your body, both of you?
[00:26:54] Speaker C: Well, when we're over at Maran K.
[00:26:58] Speaker A: We go to right across the street.
Yes.
[00:27:00] Speaker B: That place is amazing.
[00:27:02] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:27:02] Speaker C: Good food. Quality food is hard to find, especially when there's all those snacks going around.
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:27:11] Speaker B: It seems like a great option, doesn't it?
My brain does offer me. Like, you've earned it. Like, you work hard. You've really earned it. But the truth is it's punishment. I put it in my body and I feel like, why'd you do that to me?
[00:27:23] Speaker C: It's true.
[00:27:24] Speaker B: That was punishment. That wasn't a treat. That was punishment.
[00:27:26] Speaker A: But you're like, it's so small. This little small thing's not going to like it does.
[00:27:31] Speaker C: Well, I. Look, Will doesn't make the best choices.
[00:27:34] Speaker B: Okay, Go crafting. I don't.
[00:27:36] Speaker C: I don't.
[00:27:37] Speaker B: What's your guilty. What's your guilty pleasure?
[00:27:40] Speaker C: Everything.
[00:27:41] Speaker A: Everything? Yeah, I do.
[00:27:43] Speaker B: Really?
[00:27:43] Speaker A: Everything? Yeah.
[00:27:44] Speaker C: As long as there's no slightly shade of every. Right.
[00:27:46] Speaker A: He does every now and then. He's always like, right, chocolate, whatever.
[00:27:52] Speaker B: But it seems like that works for you. Like you're not rising and crashing during the day. No, I'm not.
[00:27:56] Speaker A: And I'm. I'm a.
I. I go to yoga all the time, so I feel like that kind of.
[00:28:02] Speaker B: What's the matter?
[00:28:03] Speaker A: I go to hot yoga.
[00:28:04] Speaker C: This is his answer for everything. Oh yeah. Well, I'm at yoga at 6am and I. And I had a hot yoga.
[00:28:10] Speaker B: So you're able.
You're able to make those choices?
[00:28:13] Speaker A: Yeah, that's why I'm able to make the choices.
[00:28:15] Speaker B: You can do that or not make the choices. The choice is everything.
You're not even choosing the snack.
[00:28:21] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:28:22] Speaker B: Guilty. Guilty.
[00:28:24] Speaker C: Yoga class. See exactly what he's doing in there.
[00:28:26] Speaker B: Well, what's gonna happen?
[00:28:27] Speaker A: But you're in the gym. I don't go to the gym.
[00:28:29] Speaker C: That's.
[00:28:29] Speaker A: That's amazing.
[00:28:30] Speaker C: That's lucky. He's lucky.
[00:28:33] Speaker B: Who else is at the gym, y'?
[00:28:35] Speaker A: All?
[00:28:36] Speaker B: Per menopause is not going to get me. I am lifting heavy.
Lifting heavy.
[00:28:40] Speaker C: Come on, Dana.
[00:28:42] Speaker B: Home gym.
[00:28:42] Speaker A: I love it.
[00:28:43] Speaker B: Actually, I was walking my dog yesterday. Day before. Doesn't matter. And there's a like right up van eyes. We were going to the grocery store cuz I'm like morning walk and I need.
So we're walking Riz and there's a coach outside and a lady with kettle bells and she's just lunging up Van Nuys Boulevard.
[00:28:59] Speaker C: And I was like, get it in.
[00:29:01] Speaker B: Hey. And he was like, cute dog. Whatever. Anyways, this guy, as I'm Walking pitches me a gym membership to the gym that's on my street. I'm a peloton person. I don't think I need a gym.
[00:29:12] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:29:12] Speaker B: But guys, my 40th birthday is coming up and I want to be able to do four pull ups. By 40, you're done. And I don't have a. A place in my room, so I think I might need this membership just so that I can.
[00:29:26] Speaker A: I'm here for it. Yes. I love it.
[00:29:29] Speaker C: But you know, there's a park over here that has that.
[00:29:32] Speaker B: That's so true.
[00:29:33] Speaker C: There is.
[00:29:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:34] Speaker C: The one.
[00:29:35] Speaker A: And that is right down the street.
[00:29:37] Speaker C: Hazel Team Part 3.99.
[00:29:39] Speaker B: 3.99. That's for me.
Okay. Okay. Okay.
[00:29:44] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:29:44] Speaker B: Okay. So you have your yoga flow routine.
[00:29:47] Speaker A: Oh, gosh.
[00:29:49] Speaker B: That you're very disciplined with. So that you can be very. Not so disciplined with your stuff. Actually, I want to shout you out. Talk about discipline. I admire one thing about you. Several things. But one is how good you are at promoting your classes. I get an email from you. I get things popping up on my Instagram. I get dms. I get emails. I am like, I love that you let people know when you're doing it outside of just a general story post. Because I don't know about you guys, but I don't see. See the things that I want to see. And I see a whole lot of that. I don't care. Yeah, but you're so good at your email blasts. That is what got me in your class the first time I took your class.
[00:30:24] Speaker A: Me, you and Tice.
[00:30:26] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
Wait, what was it?
[00:30:30] Speaker A: On Broadway from Smokey Joe's Cafe.
[00:30:34] Speaker B: It was so much fun. I wore the wrong shoes.
I wore the wrong shoes. I blame. I. You can't blame.
[00:30:41] Speaker A: And you had your hat on. And you.
[00:30:42] Speaker B: I brought a bowler hat because I knew the song. I'd seen the combo. I am of the age where I need to know what you're teaching in your class before I am in agreement to coming. You know what I mean? I like to know what you're doing.
[00:30:53] Speaker C: To have. To have you in class. It just. It elevates the class.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: Oh, Jamal, thank you so much.
[00:30:58] Speaker C: It's the truth. I'm.
[00:30:59] Speaker B: I'm not. I wish I could get paid for taking classes.
[00:31:02] Speaker C: You should. Actually, honestly, you should get paid for coming to people's class because it makes people pull up. Honestly.
[00:31:09] Speaker A: It does. It does.
[00:31:10] Speaker C: I watched. I watched the room pull up when Dana enters the.
[00:31:14] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:31:14] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:31:15] Speaker C: Yeah. People want to try to, you know, Be on that level.
[00:31:20] Speaker B: Thank you. I'm flattered by that. But now my wheels are also turning on what kind of documentary we could make where I have to. I get paid to take these class. Because it also could be hot flames. I could go down and flip.
[00:31:32] Speaker C: You know what?
[00:31:32] Speaker B: We'll find out. And that'd be good tv. Either way.
[00:31:35] Speaker C: Either way.
[00:31:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:37] Speaker B: Okay. I wanna. I wanna shout out really quickly something that you wish more people did that maybe you've learned from each other. Like, oh, Will does this and I wish more people did that, or Jamal does this, and I really wish more people did that.
[00:31:50] Speaker C: Oh, goodness gracious. Well, I. I will say that Will, because he's also a popular instructor.
[00:32:02] Speaker B: Don't air for his popularity.
[00:32:05] Speaker C: Oh, God, I'm roll my eyes too with it.
[00:32:08] Speaker A: Such a hater.
[00:32:10] Speaker B: I love that as a love language.
[00:32:12] Speaker C: It's funny. But. But he's so well respected that I think that when he comes into the room and we have the dancers, you know, they were all excited that Will was in the room as well. So I think that that's really a good thing to have because then you get the respect from the dancers immediately. They're not looking at him like, who is this? You know what I mean? So, I mean, you know, not everybody's gonna have that, but he does. And that's a. I wish that, you know.
[00:32:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. A degree of baked in respect.
[00:32:40] Speaker C: That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. From the community.
[00:32:43] Speaker A: I would say for me, that I. Biggest thing I've learned from, or I wish that, you know, other people would apply is just to move without ego.
Just feel like sometimes the entertainment industry in general is very ego driven.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: I've noticed.
[00:33:00] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:33:01] Speaker A: And I think.
I mean, this man right here has done. I mean, the resume. Roll it out. CVS list. Right. Goes all the way to there. But it's like, there's not one thing I haven't. I've never felt an energy of him that's felt like, this is. I'm the Jamal Sims. The one thing that I've always appreciated about him is much as he knows, he's always still willing to learn and grow. Right. And so from that, simultaneously, is that I see that he's moving without ego. And that's how I learned. That's how I learned to move as well, if that makes sense.
[00:33:34] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:33:35] Speaker A: It's kind of like symbiotic. That makes sense. A little symbiotic theory.
[00:33:39] Speaker C: As I sit here with my shades on.
[00:33:45] Speaker B: Okay. So that's the sweet side of it. Things get Crunchy. This is a relationship, and on any job, especially in this job, because it's personal values and personal taste. It does get personal sometimes, even when it's not. So I'm curious about how you two handle the crunchier moments or power dynamics, if I dare go as far as to call it that.
[00:34:12] Speaker C: You know, we don't have any.
I'm trying to think of. Because, you know, what I realize is that even in the most stressful situations, you know, either I'll say a joke or he'll say something that's funny. And we try to just break that immediately because we know that it's not the end of the world. And maybe somebody has to step outside for a minute, you know, and come back in.
[00:34:39] Speaker B: Okay. That's a good technique. I have taken that.
[00:34:41] Speaker C: Yeah. It's good because you'll mess around and say some things that, you know, maybe you didn't even mean just because you were stressed up or riled up. But honestly, we've just never had that situation. We've had actors on set that didn't know their lines. We've had dancers that didn't remember the choreography. There was like a whole. You know, we've been through it all.
[00:35:03] Speaker B: Right. But internally.
[00:35:05] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:06] Speaker B: Tight.
[00:35:06] Speaker A: Yeah. I feel like we're just always locked in.
[00:35:09] Speaker C: Yeah. And, you know, if we could sit back and I always say, this is going to be a story.
[00:35:15] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what he always says.
[00:35:17] Speaker B: Good for the plot.
[00:35:18] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:35:18] Speaker B: That's one of Riley's favorite sentences. Oh, this is good for the plot.
[00:35:21] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, and it is. And it usually is. We sit back and laugh.
You know what I mean?
[00:35:28] Speaker B: And.
[00:35:28] Speaker C: And if we always remember that we're on the same team, it's not me against him or it's, we're on the same team. We're fighting for the same thing. So.
No, we just haven't had that.
[00:35:38] Speaker B: You know, remembering that is critical.
[00:35:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:41] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:42] Speaker B: Because I do think, especially with dance in both of your backgrounds, go for self is programmed in there. Auditioning, battling, training, trying to book the. The role or get the place in the formation. Like, we are competitive.
[00:35:57] Speaker C: This is not.
[00:35:58] Speaker B: And so to remember, it's we versus me can take a little bit of retooling, a little bit of, like, just remembering. Yeah, but you've got a lot of practice doing that remembering.
[00:36:08] Speaker C: I. I do. And also, I started in a, you know, as choreographer, choreographing with someone else. You know what I mean? So.
[00:36:15] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:36:16] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. I've always had to share Share. Yeah, you know, so this doesn't. Doesn't feel odd to me.
[00:36:24] Speaker B: That makes so much sense.
[00:36:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:26] Speaker B: Yeah, duh.
[00:36:27] Speaker C: Yeah.
So I think. But. But, you know, yeah. So I think that's probably why I don't.
[00:36:33] Speaker B: On the subject of sharing, though, credit is distinct and deliberate on purpose. And I think choreographers specifically were charged up because there's this line in our contract, 99.99 of the time that says credit pending productions discretion. So we choreographers have been fighting to make choreography credit. Sorry. We've been struggling to make credit baseline. Like, we will get credit for our work.
And as we're like out there on that hill, fighting that good fight, sharing with the team can be challenging and nuanced in terms of how to do that.
I remember something that Chris did, Christopher Scott on In the Heights. We had a choreography team of five. We were stacked, but it also was a massive project with 305 dancers that needed a lot of support.
And Chris was very generous and very deliberate about introducing us. Laterally. We are the choreography team versus as a pyramid. This is me. They are them, then there's them.
And I really, I thought that that was so heroic and beautiful and compassionate and could be confusing at times when people didn't know who. Who to go to for what thing.
[00:37:55] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:37:56] Speaker B: So when you're working with a group of dancers, do you. When you're setting the room at the beginning of the project, do you ever lay that groundwork or is this just something that people feel out and they're like, oh, I think Will's my guy for this. I think I should maybe talk to Jamal about this.
[00:38:09] Speaker C: Yeah. As. As far as relationship with dancers or production as well.
[00:38:14] Speaker B: Yeah, good question. Both.
[00:38:16] Speaker C: Yeah. I think, you know, because of production, you know, they know. They know. Right. It's listed on the call. Well, hopefully we're on the call sheets.
[00:38:25] Speaker B: Sometimes we're not.
[00:38:25] Speaker C: Most of the time we're not at the bottom. The miscellaneous on the back of that two side print.
[00:38:31] Speaker B: Come on.
[00:38:34] Speaker C: But, but. And then with dancers, I think, you know, a lot of the times Will goes in and teaches the choreo, you know, but they also know that Jamal Sims is the choreo, you know what I mean? So I'll let him, you know, I mean, not I'll let him. I'll ask him to teach it, you know. You know, and. And so for the most part, I feel like they just kind of understand the.
The dynamic of what's going on. I've never had to say, hey, Will is act. Is my assistant or associate or whatever. But.
And I. And I think there's some questions that you'll get and you might not answer. Know the answer, and you'll come to me, and he'll come to me and say, oh, what do you think? And I was like, oh, yeah, whatever.
[00:39:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:17] Speaker C: You know, because obviously, you know, dancers will probably feel more comfortable coming to that assistant to say, hey, I can't be at rehearsal till.
[00:39:24] Speaker B: Oh, right.
[00:39:25] Speaker C: You know, and then, you know, and then he'll be like, well, let me just check with Jamal. You know, I think that that's kind
[00:39:32] Speaker B: of the Pretty standard.
[00:39:33] Speaker C: Yeah, right.
[00:39:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so.
[00:39:34] Speaker B: You're having to field a lot of the.
[00:39:38] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:39:40] Speaker A: It's pretty much exactly right.
[00:39:41] Speaker C: Isn't that right?
[00:39:42] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:39:43] Speaker B: Is there any part of the job of assistant that you do not like that you would prefer not to be doing?
[00:39:50] Speaker A: No, I. Why are you sipping your teeth like that?
[00:39:54] Speaker C: No, you can be honest.
[00:39:55] Speaker B: It's kind of a setup. I know, but I think it's helpful for you to know what lights you up.
[00:40:00] Speaker A: I will say this. Is that.
[00:40:01] Speaker C: Tell me what I do wrong.
[00:40:02] Speaker A: No, no, not you.
[00:40:04] Speaker C: No, no.
[00:40:05] Speaker B: But I do want to know. Tell me what's wrong.
[00:40:08] Speaker A: Obviously, the.
What do you call the administrator. But I think sometimes production forget specifically what type of admin work that the assistant's supposed to be doing, so they expect you to sometimes do above and another department's work, if that makes sense. So I love the admin. As long as it's, like, within the choreographers.
[00:40:30] Speaker B: As long as the person on the other side of the email knows that you're gonna be standing up and sweating in 30 seconds.
[00:40:36] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:40:37] Speaker C: Give an example. I think this is really good.
[00:40:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:40] Speaker C: We just did a job.
[00:40:41] Speaker A: Yeah, we did a job. Not that. Like last summer, where I. I think when they see assistant choreographer, they think personal assistant.
[00:40:50] Speaker B: Assistant to the assistant.
[00:40:51] Speaker A: Yes, assistant to the choreographer. And so I was contacted by wardrobe to actually schedule the dancer's fittings, and then, you know, got some flack when I said, that's not my job, you know, and so I think it was a little confusing, you know, when they see the title. So, you know, and just other things, you know, when it comes to.
[00:41:13] Speaker C: And then I got a call that was like, this will is. What did they say?
[00:41:18] Speaker A: Being difficult.
[00:41:19] Speaker C: This will is being difficult.
[00:41:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:21] Speaker B: And you were like, sorry, yeah, no, he's not.
[00:41:23] Speaker C: Ain't no difficult in the world. You know what I mean?
[00:41:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:26] Speaker C: Like, you can't say I know exactly what happened, you know, and we've already talked about it.
[00:41:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:32] Speaker B: And.
[00:41:33] Speaker C: And. And it's true. It's like when, you know, unfortunately, this industry still, in 2026. Well, at the time it was 25.
They don't respect the boundaries of what we do and don't understand what exactly.
[00:41:51] Speaker B: A huge part of it is, just the. The knowing of what it is that we do. And that's kind of. That's why I'm excited about this conversation.
[00:41:57] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. They don't understand we don't schedule dancers fittings. We don't, you know, so many things.
[00:42:07] Speaker B: The studio space.
I'm thinking like on the. On in the heights, we did have. We had a dance PA that's always. And that is really. That's where that person would really bridge the gap between production and dance. So they are. They know how many dancers are going to be in the piece and therefore what studio size kind of we need and what's available and who's available and when. And.
[00:42:29] Speaker A: Yeah, and I think it helps, obviously, starting way at the top when it's very clear on what is the role of, like you said, an associate or an assistant, you know, but sometimes you can't blame people for what they don't know. You know what I mean? So, I mean, I was. Happened to be part of the wardrobe team that day, I guess. I don't know.
[00:42:49] Speaker B: Right, right, right.
[00:42:50] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:42:52] Speaker B: Choreographer's handbook, my friends. That could be forwarded to them on the next email.
[00:42:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:57] Speaker B: And say, like, I totally get that. Not every project has a choreography team.
[00:43:01] Speaker A: Right.
[00:43:01] Speaker B: And I. I'm still learning myself. But for reference, this read. This is what you can. This is what you can expect from somebody in my position.
[00:43:08] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:43:09] Speaker C: There you go.
[00:43:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:10] Speaker A: That.
[00:43:10] Speaker B: I love having a bad guy to point to. Like, it's not me. It's the Choreographer's Guild handbook. Take a look at the handbook. It's all right there. I really do love that. And yes, people are still learning.
Even though musicals have been around since the beginning of film. The very beginning.
[00:43:25] Speaker C: Come on.
[00:43:26] Speaker B: But still. Still, not every film calls for dance or calls for a choreographer. So I get that we fall to the back of the call sheet sometimes or that not every person knows how to handle us.
[00:43:36] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:43:37] Speaker C: So sad.
[00:43:38] Speaker B: So sad.
Okay, so we're gonna gently segue into our rapid fire burnout round. Are you ready for this?
[00:43:45] Speaker C: Yeah. But before we do that, can I talk about one thing?
[00:43:47] Speaker B: Yes, please. Talk about whatever you want to talk about.
[00:43:50] Speaker C: It was this associate
[00:43:54] Speaker A: role
[00:43:56] Speaker C: that I Feel like is always a weird thing. Okay, let's talk about it, you know, because we did.
[00:44:05] Speaker B: Should I pull up the handbook while you're talking?
[00:44:07] Speaker C: Yeah.
I work with Kai Martinez as well. Yep.
[00:44:12] Speaker B: Big fan.
[00:44:12] Speaker A: Who is.
[00:44:14] Speaker C: Who's. Was my assistant on Encanto and then also associate just now on a Camp Rock 3 that I just finished.
[00:44:21] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:44:22] Speaker C: And, you know, I really want, you know, obviously I'm. I'm directing now, so I would love to be able to say, you know, well, they were associates on this. Now they can choreograph. So I want to actually point out to the industry that they're. They didn't work as just an assistant, that they are now associates, which means that they have contributed choreography.
And so I think that there's that independently from you. Yes.
And so I think that it's really important that as choreographers that we bring up are that. Because they start as assistant, they just can always be your assistant forever.
[00:45:04] Speaker B: Thank you, Jamal. As somebody who has worked my way from assistant to associate and co to being department head. Yeah, that trajectory is super important. And if you don't give people credit, they can't point to the work that they've done.
So it is gatekeeping and it keeps. It's. It is a very dangerous thing that I think, unfortunately, in our world because the sausage gets made so differently from project to project. It's like you really can't copy paste one process from one project to another.
[00:45:32] Speaker C: It's true.
[00:45:33] Speaker B: So, yeah, it's. It's different every time, which makes the water a little bit muddy, which makes the. This sort of thing so very common. More common than I would like for it to be.
[00:45:43] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:45:45] Speaker B: I'm glad that you advocate for people, you know, climbing those ranks, because.
[00:45:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:51] Speaker B: If you don't get credit for the work, then how are you going to get more work?
[00:45:53] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:45:54] Speaker B: Right.
[00:45:54] Speaker C: And yeah. And we, you know, this is the. This is our livelihood. This is how we get paid. And so, you know, I know how it is to go from a dancer to try to jump to be a choreographer, be a choreographer trying to jump to director. You know, a lot of times people see you as what they. As what you.
[00:46:12] Speaker B: And you get stuck there.
[00:46:13] Speaker C: You get stuck there. You get pigeonholed into just being an assistant or being whatever, and assistant's not a bad place to be. But I also know that they also have creative endeavors that they want to do.
So it's really important. Anyways, I just want to make sure that we. To put that out there because you Know, I know a lot of people that have been assistants for 20 years.
[00:46:36] Speaker B: I know a lot of people who are called assistant and aren't. Are much more.
So this is how we're. This is how we're gonna the tea.
But I also do think, you know, you learn and know better. Do better.
[00:46:54] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:46:55] Speaker B: We didn't have this kind of language before, and now we have solutions for problems that have been here for a long time. But now they have names and handbooks. Okay, you ready for how the Choreographers Guild defines the difference between assistant, associate, and co choreographer?
Choreographer. A choreographer is hired to create, stage, and direct dance or movement. Choreographers may. May work, this is important, as part of teams, including one or more of the following roles or which we refer to collectively as choreography teams.
Assistant choreographer. An assistant choreographer assists the choreographer in carrying out their vision, which may include administrative duties as well as assisting during rehearsals or production.
That. That may, I think is important. And we chose our language very carefully because we don't. We also don't want to pigeonhole ourselves into. No, this is what I do. This is what I do. This is exactly what I do.
[00:47:52] Speaker A: Right.
[00:47:52] Speaker B: An associate choreographer may take on may all or some of the duties of an assistant. Like, should be prepared to be firing off some emails if you are unable to.
But they additionally make independent contributions to the choreography and operate at least part of the time with autonomy from the choreographer. That is huge. And that distinction means. Means the world co choreographer is considered an equivalent to the choreographer working as part of an equal partnership. That's like what you and Rocero had. And then a supervising choreographer. And this is still not getting a ton of play or attention. Not. Not a lot of people use this as the title.
I'm curious if you have or why you haven't. Yes, we'll talk about it. Supervising choreographer is primarily responsible for coordinating the work of multiple choreographers on a production. Yeah, coordinating all the different people doing all the different numbers by themselves on their own with their assistance and associates and whatever. Is that a title that you like wearing? Have you. In the past?
[00:48:55] Speaker C: Yeah, I don't like it. It gets muddy.
I feel like it gets muddy, you know, because I did it in Step up, the. The later step ups. Because then, you know, we started bringing in different choreographers because I didn't want the movie to always look like, you know, the same thing, obviously.
And so when that happened and then they put me as supervising supervisor, supervising choreographer or whatever, I still choreographed numbers in the.
[00:49:29] Speaker B: Oh, okay, okay, okay. So supervising feels like not in the room not sweating, not doing the work. And you were. I see.
[00:49:36] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:49:36] Speaker B: That makes a lot of sense.
[00:49:37] Speaker C: So I think that that's where it gets, like, a little tricky. You know what I mean?
But, you know, I knew that I had to take on the role in order for everything to kind of have some sort of cohesiveness and for it
[00:49:51] Speaker B: to be an ecosystem that has variety. Yes, but you understand how to unify it. Yeah, it's a difficult.
[00:49:59] Speaker C: It is.
It is.
[00:50:01] Speaker B: It is so cool.
[00:50:03] Speaker C: So many personalities.
[00:50:04] Speaker B: Okay, rapid fire. You guys ready for it?
[00:50:06] Speaker C: Let's go.
[00:50:06] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:50:08] Speaker B: Do you think you know each other well enough to answer for each other?
[00:50:11] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:50:12] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:50:13] Speaker B: Okay, here it comes. Jamal, is Will a coffee or tea?
[00:50:17] Speaker C: Coffee.
[00:50:19] Speaker B: And then maybe just fire back. Yes or no?
[00:50:22] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:50:23] Speaker B: Ice or hot?
[00:50:24] Speaker A: Hot.
[00:50:24] Speaker B: Nice. Okay.
Will, is Jamal dogs or cats? Person.
[00:50:29] Speaker A: A dog's person.
[00:50:32] Speaker B: Okay. Is Will indoor cat or outdoor cat?
[00:50:36] Speaker C: Oh, this is tough.
Indoor cat.
[00:50:42] Speaker B: You identify as an outdoor person.
I was gonna.
[00:50:47] Speaker A: I go to the park. I go to the park all the
[00:50:49] Speaker C: time, but that's all you. You only go to the park? He only go to the park. He doesn't like to hike.
[00:50:55] Speaker A: You like to hike.
[00:50:55] Speaker C: I've never seen you on Run your canyon.
I've never, ever.
[00:51:00] Speaker A: I haven't hiked in a while.
[00:51:02] Speaker C: He's lying. For the park.
Who are you? I don't know. Just what I think I know is somebody.
[00:51:11] Speaker B: You're a fraud. Because he goes to the park.
I do. I like that.
[00:51:15] Speaker A: I like it.
[00:51:16] Speaker B: I would never pretend to be an outdoor person. I am an indoor cat.
[00:51:19] Speaker A: Okay, all right, so maybe. All right, so maybe indoors, then.
[00:51:21] Speaker B: Oh, that's so funny. Okay, I'm gonna let you get back.
Is Jamal more productive in the morning hours or evening time?
[00:51:29] Speaker A: Morning, yeah.
[00:51:30] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely.
[00:51:31] Speaker A: She wakes up at the break of dawn.
[00:51:33] Speaker C: Yes. Yes. I have to.
[00:51:35] Speaker B: When is the last time Will took a ballet class?
[00:51:39] Speaker C: Oh, I don't know. But I'm gonna say within the last couple months.
[00:51:47] Speaker A: It's been a little longer.
[00:51:49] Speaker B: No ballet all year.
Have you taken a ballet class in 2026?
[00:51:52] Speaker A: I have not. No.
[00:51:54] Speaker B: Me neither.
[00:51:54] Speaker C: Does yoga.
Does that count? No. No, it does not count. Okay. Dang.
[00:52:02] Speaker B: But I do love that as a question. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that as a question.
What was the last song that Jamal is most likely to have belted out loud?
And even if you're wrong, Jamal, I do need you to answer this question. I have to know.
[00:52:19] Speaker C: Oh, gosh.
[00:52:20] Speaker A: Was it Dunchacha?
Joss,
[00:52:27] Speaker B: I don't know this.
[00:52:28] Speaker C: Okay, let me Tell you something. Let me tell you about this relationship.
[00:52:30] Speaker B: Please, let's go.
[00:52:31] Speaker C: We are both trash.
We are trash TV watchers. Okay, so there's a Zeus. The Zeus network. I don't know if you know about
[00:52:43] Speaker A: this, but it's only 2.99amonth.
[00:52:46] Speaker C: But they have the. When I tell you, I mean, it's. It's bad. I'm really embarrassed to say.
But we watch it and we cannot get enough. So there's like songs from those shows that we will go back.
[00:53:02] Speaker B: Literally a show.
Is he right? Have you sung that song recently?
[00:53:06] Speaker C: I have probably sung that song recently,
[00:53:08] Speaker A: but he knows the song.
[00:53:09] Speaker B: That's amazing.
Okay, copy, copy.
You can answer this one for yourselves. I'm very curious. Desert island album. You get to listen to one album for the rest of time. What is it?
[00:53:20] Speaker C: I'm going to tell you.
[00:53:21] Speaker B: Go.
[00:53:22] Speaker C: It's the Wiz movie soundtrack.
[00:53:25] Speaker B: Like, I really did not see that coming. Did you see that coming?
[00:53:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:29] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:53:29] Speaker A: He loves the Wiz.
[00:53:30] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:53:31] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:53:31] Speaker B: Great.
Fantastic.
[00:53:35] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:53:35] Speaker B: Good to know.
[00:53:35] Speaker C: Yeah. It's. It's Michael. It's Diana Ross.
[00:53:37] Speaker B: I mean, it is untouchable. It is the best.
[00:53:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:53:41] Speaker B: How about you?
[00:53:42] Speaker A: I'll say. Miseducation of Lauryn Hill.
[00:53:44] Speaker B: Solid.
[00:53:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:45] Speaker B: Solid answer.
[00:53:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:47] Speaker B: Hands down. Purple Rain for me. Oh.
Top to bottom.
[00:53:51] Speaker C: Dang.
[00:53:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:52] Speaker B: Okay, last one. Also answering for yourselves. I'm curious if you guys have a mantra, a north star, a guiding principle, a sentence, a poem, a horoscope. I don't know, something that kind of guides your daily life.
[00:54:06] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:54:07] Speaker B: AKA what are the words that move you? Just say it. Dana, Just say that.
[00:54:12] Speaker A: I would say mind this. Mine.
[00:54:15] Speaker B: Sorry.
[00:54:15] Speaker A: Sorry, Mom.
With that. I say every morning is to is the two parts is be present and accept and release what you cannot control.
[00:54:27] Speaker B: Makes a lot of sense that you two work well together.
[00:54:29] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:54:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Be present. Be here. This is where we are, you guys. And it's amazing.
And accept and release what you cannot control.
Gorgeous.
[00:54:37] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:54:37] Speaker B: Thank you, my friend. I actually needed to hear that today. Yeah.
[00:54:40] Speaker C: Come on.
I think I said it on your.
[00:54:44] Speaker B: You're probably. Yeah, yeah. On last one. Should we just cut that one?
[00:54:47] Speaker C: Replay it?
You could probably. But honestly, it's always just to lead with kindness. That's just. That's just. I just wake up in the morning, I'm like, however I'm going to do it, this. It's just got to be kind, whatever it is, you know? Cuz we live in some rough times right now, you know? And so I'm just grateful A to be on earth at this point, but also if I'm gonna be here, I'm gonna be kind. You just never know what people are gonna. Going through, you know.
[00:55:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:18] Speaker C: The next person and, you know, that's. That's kind of my thing. I just like, yeah, be kind.
[00:55:27] Speaker A: And I just wanna. While we're here, I just want to say thank you to Jamal for giving me so many opportunities the past four years.
I think right before I met him, I was like, at a period where I was just like, oh, we've all been there.
[00:55:42] Speaker B: Is this.
Can I keep doing this?
[00:55:44] Speaker A: Yeah, can I keep doing this? And, you know, whatever. But it was definitely God, he came into my life at the right time and just not as just a mentor, but also like as a big brother and a friend. And every job is always different from the next. And I just feel that I've grown so much as a choreographer. So just want to say this is probably one of the best people that anybody could ever work for. So just thank you.
[00:56:08] Speaker B: Well, say it on the podcast. Well, that was beautiful. Thank you for sharing.
[00:56:13] Speaker C: Make me cry, yo.
[00:56:14] Speaker B: That was some sincere love and kindness.
[00:56:17] Speaker C: It is, it is. And I always feel like I'm the lucky one. You know, I'm the lucky one. I. I have two amazing associates that I work with. Obviously, Will has been a blessing to me and to my life, my career. And Kai Martinez, the same previous podcast
[00:56:36] Speaker B: guest, we will definitely plug to her episode because it's so good.
[00:56:39] Speaker C: Yeah. And then, you know, I'm just going to talk about it because for some reason, it's all my spirit. You know, I was nominated for the Lion King for a number that we did in the Lion King at the Hollywood bowl.
[00:56:56] Speaker B: For Emmy.
[00:56:57] Speaker C: For an Emmy. Yeah. And I really wanted their names to be on that nomination so bad because they just put. Poured their heart and souls into that project. And it always just felt so weird that it was just me.
[00:57:13] Speaker B: Let's talk about it. I'm glad you mentioned that.
[00:57:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:57:15] Speaker B: I mean, directors also have teams, right? There's the director, there's the AD there's the second AD there's the second. Second. Second. And when nominations for best director go out, it's the director's name on it.
[00:57:26] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:57:27] Speaker B: The team doesn't get.
Well, I, I get. I. I know that that impulse and the. The wanting to share, and it is noble and it is incredible, and.
[00:57:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:57:37] Speaker B: And you were there, and you know how much they did, and I've been there, and I know how much we did.
And the fact that you want to share that so bad. Speaks to your. Yeah, but Moral fiber. But also, that's not how other departments work.
I get it.
[00:57:52] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:57:52] Speaker A: But I, But I will say this is that even though as much as you wanted that for me, I just value the. Me and Kai talk about this all the time. We just value the experience and the fact that before it was announced, he called us, you know, and just thanked us, you know, just for, you know, helping.
[00:58:10] Speaker B: That's cool. He called you.
[00:58:13] Speaker A: I was, I was in Virginia Beach. I was on the beach.
[00:58:16] Speaker B: I bet you remember where you were. That's a cool thing.
[00:58:19] Speaker A: You know, and it's just like, this is the most selfless human being ever. And so it was just me and Ky were like, it's not about that. Like, we just, just to work with our, our big brother, man. It's just like the things are going to come when they come.
[00:58:31] Speaker B: And it's cool to have credit. Like it would be. It is just cool to work with your brother. But also it's just cooler for people to be able to find. Okay, I can't afford Jamal or Jamal is booked. Who was his team for the Lion King.
[00:58:46] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:58:46] Speaker B: And be able to find you.
[00:58:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:58:47] Speaker B: And they can because you are recognized, credited. And that. That is really.
[00:58:52] Speaker C: Yeah.
Very, very true. I mean, you're absolutely correct. You know, I, I always say, you know, after losing four times.
[00:59:02] Speaker B: Wait, did you win? I'm sorry, I'm not.
[00:59:03] Speaker C: No, I didn't. No, didn't win. I've lost five times at the Emmys.
[00:59:09] Speaker B: Put that on your resume. Five time loser.
[00:59:15] Speaker C: I realized that it's really not about that. You know, it's really, you know, it's always so nice to be recognized for your work. That's. That's wonderful. And I, I think that that's what that does.
But at the end of the day, it's, it's when you look at. When we go back and we look at the things that we've done, the work itself. Oh, my gosh. That's the.
[00:59:37] Speaker B: So cool.
[00:59:38] Speaker C: That's the award.
[00:59:40] Speaker B: O for me, man. It's like. Cuz I, I Chris, also we put oursel in scenes of in the Heights.
[00:59:47] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:59:48] Speaker B: And so my prize is that every time I get a residual, I know the dancers did too.
[00:59:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:59:54] Speaker B: And that to me is a high.
Way cooler than seeing a trophy on my bookshelf.
[01:00:01] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:00:01] Speaker A: And I think too, it's just like, even with the experience, obviously doing with him, but you know, Kydi's, you know, she's one of my best friends. So just to be able to share that moment with Jamal and, you know, it was. It's like, again, like you said, it's like, even though, yeah, the credit would be cool, but these are the things for me that would. Now, I'm not trying to say, like, nobody gets credit or anything, but I'm just saying I. I value.
[01:00:22] Speaker B: Yeah. The experience and the making part versus the product part and the prize part. Yeah, that makes sense. Y', all, you're a delight. Thank you so much for doing this. I could go. I could really do this all the time. But for time, let us wrap it up. Thank you guys tremendously for letting us peek behind the curtain. Thank you both for being here and for sharing.
[01:00:40] Speaker C: Love you.
[01:00:41] Speaker A: Thank you, Dana. You're amazing. I love you guys.
[01:00:45] Speaker B: Thank you, Riley.
[01:00:46] Speaker C: Thank you, Riley.
[01:00:48] Speaker B: This is my executive assistant, Riley. Do you want to pop in? Since it's about teams.
[01:00:52] Speaker C: Come on. Say, say, say. Say hey. Say hey to the people.
[01:00:58] Speaker A: Hello.
[01:00:58] Speaker B: I'm the executive assistant editor of Where It's At Movie, and you're blushing, and I'm flushing, and we're hugging, which is weird.
I don't know. You probably feel this too. Should we. Should we break it? Okay. We're very close.
We work together so often and see each other and talk to each other so often that hugs hello and goodbye are not a thing.
[01:01:19] Speaker C: Oh, wow.
[01:01:19] Speaker B: Because I know I'm just going to see you again in, like, six hours. It's like, bye. And then she gets here, and I'm like, okay.
We really don't hug.
Wow, is that wild, you guys. Not the same.
[01:01:29] Speaker A: We hug all the time.
[01:01:31] Speaker C: We hug all.
[01:01:31] Speaker A: Bring it in, girl.
[01:01:32] Speaker C: Yeah, Every year, all the time.
[01:01:34] Speaker B: But Riley's not much of a hugger. No, this guy's kind of flimsy.
[01:01:40] Speaker A: Oh, no.
[01:01:42] Speaker B: Okay. Thank you for popping over and for all the work that you do. Executive assistant and editor of the podcast, Riley Higgins, Crushing the Game. Thank you, listener, viewer, for being here. Subscribe Click the bell for notifications. Leave a review and or rating. Share the podcast with your friends and get out there in the world and keep it funky. Who does this for a living?
[01:02:00] Speaker A: You ate that.
[01:02:03] Speaker B: This podcast was produced by me with the help of many. Big, big love to our executive assistant and editor, Riley Higgins. Our communications manager is Fiona Small, with additional support from Ori Vajadis. Our music is by Max Winney, logo and brand design by Bree Reitz. And if you're digging the podcast, leave a review and rating and please share Also if you want to connect with me and the many marvelous members of the Words that Move me community, visit wordsthatmoveme.com if you're simply curious to know more about me and the work that I do outside of this podcast, visit thedanawilson.com.
