Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign hello, my friend. Welcome to Words that Move Me. I'm Dana and this is another great episode because I am not afraid of self congratulating.
Today I'm talking to Monsel Durden again. This is round two. If you do not know Moncel, if you haven't listened to our first episode together, it's episode 59. It is solid gold. And bonus, the cherry on top of solid gold is that I recorded it before vocal cord surgery. So you can hear before and after if you do these episodes side by side. So go get your ears full. Moncel is a historian, a documentary filmmaker, an author, a practitioner, a dance geek. I think he would agree. A nerd about dance. And today we're nerding out about dance and things that are going on in our dance world. I think it matters. I think this is an important conversation. I'm stoked to share it with you. But first, we're going to celebrate some wins.
Today I'm celebrating a really sad win that because my dog, wrist roll, AKA Riz, is staying with her grandma, I can open a jar of peanut butter without any pitter pats on the floor coming to lick up my peanut butter spoon.
And that means that I go through way less spoons because sometimes I take my spoon and then I let Riz finish it and then I find that I wasn't actually done and I need a second spoon. So I'm going through like half as many spoons.
And that's my win. You can tell where my heart is at right now. I miss my dog. I just missed my baby.
Now you go, what's going well in your world?
Your win was fascinating, my friend. Congratulations. I wish I could hear them, really. Would you please somebody listening to this episode just text me or win. Just text me what's going well. Or DM me. I don't care. I just need to know. I keep doing this. Like, I sit here all the time and I ask you, but I don't hear as often as I would like to. So please, my friends, tell me what's going well in your world and then I will congratulate you in real person instead of here in this really generic way where I'm like, yay. But I don't actually know if you even said anything, so hit me up. Okay, moving on. Monsel Durden. My friends, this episode is full of so much inspiration and information.
I can always count on Monsel for helping me reframe my mind around certain concepts.
Today we're talking about classical ballet and how it relates to Non classical ballet. We're talking about college dance programs. We're talking about music. We're talking about freedom in freestyle. This conversation goes many, many places. All of them are valuable and so is all dance turns out. Thank you for that nugget Monsel.
All right, without any further ado, this is the one and only Monsel Durden.
Okay, I didn't have to, but I did. Holy Monstel Durden, everyone. 2.0. Welcome back to the podcast.
I listened to our first episode this morning is episode 58 59.
[00:03:25] Speaker B: I need to listen to that, yo.
[00:03:26] Speaker A: It's so good. If I do declare pet still come back. It's really, really good. And everything that you say, I'm like, oh, I should write that down. And I'm like, oh, I should also write that. I'm just like, no. Download the episode and listen to it daily until you have it memorized.
That's how much gold you bring to that episode. No pressure, no pressure. Just really high bar.
I have some specific things I want to talk to you today about and I'm really glad that you're here. But before we do that, for anyone who doesn't know you and anyone who hasn't heard our first episode, introduce yourself.
[00:03:57] Speaker B: Oh God, the pressure.
So I don't even know where to start that question. A little bit about me. I've been dancing my entire life and I've been working in, I like to call them institutions of deeper learning for the last, what, 22 years? I believe something like that. From Philadelphia, born in Harrisburg, claimed Philadelphia, lived in philly for like 10, 11 years.
And yeah, now I'm out here teaching at a school that will be nameless right now.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: Fair. Wait, how long has LA been home?
[00:04:33] Speaker B: Ten years.
[00:04:34] Speaker A: Ten years.
[00:04:35] Speaker B: Yeah. That's a journey in. In and of itself.
[00:04:37] Speaker A: Cuz I love Philly. Like there are still home. There are many cities that I can imagine myself living, but Philly's at the top of that list.
[00:04:45] Speaker B: It's still home.
Yeah. I am have been considered a embodied historian. A lot of people refer to me as an encyclopedia of dance, which I find sort of funny.
[00:04:58] Speaker A: Also. Documentary filmmaker.
[00:05:00] Speaker B: Documentary filmmaker. Author.
[00:05:02] Speaker A: Not to toot your horn, but like.
[00:05:04] Speaker B: Et cetera, et cetera.
Yeah, that's. I'm a nerd for anything to deal with cultural studies and you know, why the whys behind life. I'm a nerd about that stuff.
[00:05:16] Speaker A: I love that you said that. That really ties in. I just had comfort Fedoki sitting in that chair and we were talking about the why. Especially when you're working in dance for film and you're working with actors who are actor first, or in some cases they're dancer first, then actor, which is like, yes. But being able to explain the why for a movement helps a non dance brain connect and make it something that reads as authentic versus something that choreographers said to do.
[00:05:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:47] Speaker A: And I think dance lessons are life lessons and film lessons are dance lessons. And you know, I love learning. This is why I have a podcast and it puts me in the hot seat, like front row center of the class, which is never where I sat, by the way. I was like in the back so that I could also be writing notes because I also love communicating, I love talking to people, but I love learning. And this is why I do this. I think you're a fellow with me in that. And this is why you have amassed so much knowledge. And I really am grateful that you love sharing it as much as you love learning. I was first introduced to you by a documentary that you made called Everything Remains Raw. And at the time that I saw it, I don't think people were meant to be seeing it. I think it was still a work in progress. I don't. I think link or someone.
Somebody shared it with somebody who shared it with me and it rocked me to my core. So thank you a for making that. And is it that available for people to. For like lay people to just be. Check it out.
[00:06:47] Speaker B: It is now. It's still not completed, of course. Like, what? And. And I was irate when I found.
[00:06:54] Speaker A: Out that I had seen it, that it was.
[00:06:57] Speaker B: That it was circulating in other countries as well, because I only gave it to two people.
[00:07:06] Speaker A: And I know that the way I.
[00:07:08] Speaker B: Know the one didn't share it.
[00:07:10] Speaker A: Oh no. Oh no.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: And then I found out.
[00:07:13] Speaker A: Oh, no.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: So it's only, you know, they're just the one.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:16] Speaker B: There's only one other.
[00:07:16] Speaker A: And then there was some cyber hacking.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: People were like, yeah, so and so gave me a copy. I'm like, and then gave it. And then gave it again. I'm like, then there's no impact now. Like, no. If it's circulating, it's not the impact that I had.
[00:07:32] Speaker A: Well, you don't get.
[00:07:32] Speaker B: And it wasn't finished that part.
[00:07:35] Speaker A: So I do cringe when I think about people seeing an unfinished work before I have deemed it approved to be seen. But more than that, I think that you should be compensated fairly for the work that you've done. And I certainly didn't pay to watch that thing, but I would have And I certainly will.
[00:07:53] Speaker B: Unfortunately, I can't get compensated for that.
[00:07:55] Speaker A: Why is that?
[00:07:57] Speaker B: The music rights and the footage that I edited.
[00:08:01] Speaker A: You don't own, I don't own.
[00:08:03] Speaker B: And at one point I had rights to some of it, but they were only like three years. You know how the industry is.
[00:08:12] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:08:13] Speaker B: So I didn't renew and I wasn't able to complete the work as I had envisioned.
So I just put it for free on YouTube, but then YouTube took it.
[00:08:23] Speaker A: Down because of copyright.
[00:08:25] Speaker B: Copyright. And then what is it Vimeo? Yeah, they took it down and so I put it on my website.
[00:08:33] Speaker A: Amazing. Which is where people can go see it now. And you're not so mad about it.
[00:08:37] Speaker B: Nope, it's for free. They can go see it. I figure even though it's incomplete in my eyes.
[00:08:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:43] Speaker B: It looks complete to other people.
[00:08:45] Speaker A: It was complete enough to blow a hole through my fucking mind.
[00:08:49] Speaker B: I want to hear about that. Like what? But it's a good conversation.
[00:08:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: And it does unnerve me a bit because of the information that's not in here. That's not in there. Then they can't have the conversation that they really could have.
[00:09:03] Speaker A: I understand my. Oh, let's see. When did I watch that?
It was 2000.
If I said 2010, would that be crazy?
[00:09:15] Speaker B: No, that's okay.
[00:09:16] Speaker A: I think.
[00:09:17] Speaker B: I think I saw it for the.
[00:09:18] Speaker A: First time in 2010.
[00:09:19] Speaker B: I sort of finished what I had at the time and I started showing it in 2007.
[00:09:24] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, that makes some sense.
At the time. I had recently been hired to teach on a convention.
I was hired to teach hip hop.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: Which convention?
[00:09:33] Speaker A: New York City Dance alliance is what it's called.
And I had recently been looped into some Facebook beef with Mr. Wiggles, of all people.
And I landed. I was like in. I was flying from somewhere to somewhere and I landed to like 17 text messages. But I read what he had written, which was basically a how dare a New York City based institution offer hip hop taught by white people that aren't from New York and. Valid question. Matter of fact, valid question.
So Wiggles and I wound up having a conversation, which I really respect.
Obviously I respect Mr. Wiggles, period. But the fact that he was willing to chat with me about this instead of write me off forever and continue to be mad was heartening. And like you said, what you're trying to prepare people, what you're trying to prepare people for is the conversation. And so he helped. He engaged with me on that. And I let him know that I am a student of His. I've trained with him in many different spaces in many different places. And because of him, the way I introduced my class at that time was by introducing the elements of hip hop instead of saying, I am hip hop and this is our hip hop choreography. Ready to go.
I love talking. I use a lot of my class time on those conventions to talk. And if I'm going to be totally honest, I think that because a lot of those kids are from where I'm from and they look like me, they have a similar life experience to me.
I can speak a language that they understand.
And I think also I like talking to them.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:18] Speaker A: I like telling them what they don't know.
[00:11:21] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: And I don't think Wiggles would so much.
I don't know that being surrounded by a room full of kids with bows in their hair would light him on fire every Friday through Sunday.
[00:11:32] Speaker B: Probably not.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: So he and I talked about that as well. Then he reposted a separate message on Facebook saying, it's clear to me, Dana, and possibly people like her are interested in being a part of the solution, not part of the problem.
[00:11:45] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:45] Speaker A: But that's not to say that there is not a problem here. And we cracked that open. And it was a discourse online. It was really healthy for me. It was around that same time that somebody shared this documentary with me, and I felt really called out and I stopped teaching hip hop. I was like, this is. This is not mine. If anything, I'm a visitor in the space. And that's okay. I love visiting places. That's wonderful. But it was very important to me. And I also start my class is off by talking about that. Tony Basil helped me title my current class, which by the way, is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get.
But I was over at her house one day. We were freestyling, and she was watching me dance. And she was like, what do you call that? And I was like, ow, Basil, I'm freestyling. And she was like, no. What do you call your style? Like, what is. What is that?
[00:12:36] Speaker B: Right?
[00:12:37] Speaker A: And I was like, I just. My whole, like, I don't know what. I don't know what to call it. It's me, it's me.
How would you answer that question? If somebody watched you dancing and said, what's your style? Would you just slap them outright or what would you do?
[00:12:51] Speaker B: Well, I wouldn't slap him outright.
[00:12:55] Speaker A: You have to turn that laugh down. That was a lot right here on the way. Okay, sorry.
[00:12:59] Speaker B: Whatever. My style of moving is.
It's just me.
But I only move because of the music.
Like, I.
I don't even like dancing.
[00:13:11] Speaker A: I say it all the time. I just like people. People dance. So I'm like, okay, I'm in.
[00:13:15] Speaker B: I used to think I was like, I love dancing.
You love music. I love music. Music is the only reason I'm dancing. I can stop dancing or not dance, whatever. I enjoy the music, and if I. If it touches me emotionally, then I'll dance.
So.
[00:13:36] Speaker A: So would it depend on what you're listening to?
[00:13:38] Speaker B: It depends on what I'm listening to. Because I think music calls for whatever the movement is, and I give in to that. Even if the music is calling in that moment. Like, if I hear.
It could be, maybe it's an R and B song, right?
But if I hear something in there that has a Latin phrase or instrument and it calls for a different movement, then I'm gonna just do that. So whatever the music is calling me to do, I'm gonna do.
It's not my style.
It's just my reaction to.
[00:14:16] Speaker A: To the call.
[00:14:17] Speaker B: Yeah. To that moment.
So I may do it completely different the next time. Or, you know, if.
If anything, I'm doing the form of dance that I'm doing, Unless it's something that. Where I'm just pulling from different movements. So if I hear. If I hear a funk, I'm most likely gonna start locking. I know if I'm not doing, like, a social dance of that time.
If I hear house, I'm gonna start doing. If I hear house, I'm gonna do anything.
[00:14:45] Speaker A: There we go. Freedom. I feel like house music is so liberating.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: It is.
[00:14:49] Speaker A: It gives so much permission, and it's.
[00:14:53] Speaker B: I'm probably stirring the pot.
[00:14:54] Speaker A: Do it.
[00:14:56] Speaker B: Oh, I'll do it intentionally.
[00:14:58] Speaker A: Okay. Stir on, you know.
[00:14:59] Speaker B: Cause I used to subscribe to the whole house stance, steps and all that. Get that out of here. Pack that up. There's no steps in house.
If you want to learn the steps that New Yorkers claimed, particularly dance fusion, that this is what house is, then do those steps if you want to do them.
But don't think you have to do those steps to dance to house music.
I listened to the generation before them and a lot of the elders that inspired them that they don't talk about when it's time to teach. They just talk about what they did.
I'm like, I'm going back to before y'. All.
I'm gonna do whatever I feel like doing. Whatever the music calls, you know, check Your Body at the Door is the best documentary, in my opinion, to depict the different personalities that people brought to the table.
[00:15:54] Speaker A: I have not seen it.
[00:15:55] Speaker B: Not Sally Summers did it. It took her 20 years to release it.
I refer to that because you see all the. You see the different bodies in the room inspired by different things. And I was talking to a friend of mine, Kafele, who was in the club scene in New York City from Jersey.
He was in the club scene in New York City before all the hip hop cats started coming in. And he was telling me.
What he said to me really rang deeply with me because he was a B boy and into hip hop. And when he got into house music and found that there was a club and space, he went not with what he had in his body already.
He decided, you know what? This is what I do here. I'm going to go in here and learn what they do and not bring my thing with me.
[00:16:48] Speaker A: Okay?
[00:16:48] Speaker B: When you look at all the other cast in New York, they brought their thing with them and didn't learn what everybody was doing as a thing.
They meshed it.
So they came in with their root movement, which was hip hop, saw what everybody else was doing in the club, fused it, and then had the nerve to codify it.
And even though people don't think about this word in this way, they appropriated. Cause that wasn't your space.
It was a space made available to you.
And they didn't have names for things, they just danced freely. But y' all came in as a hip hop community, named it. That's a list that's existing, codified it. Right. Taught it. And now when you go around the world, I tell people, you don't have to do any of those steps from New York if you don't want to. You can I say learn them because they're cool steps and they're fun and they have rhythms to them and things you can do with them, but you don't have to do those.
The unfortunate part about that is you're forced to do them when it comes to a competition because they've traveled around the world.
[00:17:50] Speaker A: Yeah, this is swimming in the water. That says, right?
[00:17:53] Speaker B: So it's like, what do you do now when that's become the thing? I'm like, CD I need to get out of that stop. I mean, enter a competition if you want to, but no. And personally, I feel like competitions are not about dancers.
They're about the judges. And what the judges think good dancing is has nothing to do with you.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: I would co sign that for sure.
[00:18:12] Speaker B: So enter it. Win, lose, draw, it doesn't matter. Don't let their decision define you.
They're basing it off their idea of what to think. Cause there's no set criteria that is equitable to say this is why you won, loss, or whatever. The thing is, they just make the stuff up on their own, which means it's subjective, which is the last thing you need to be worrying about. Somebody thinking about your dance. Yeah. People either like your dancing or they don't like it.
[00:18:38] Speaker A: Uhhuh.
[00:18:38] Speaker B: That's it.
[00:18:39] Speaker A: Uhhuh.
[00:18:39] Speaker B: But it doesn't define you unless you let it.
[00:18:42] Speaker A: Correct. So beautifully said. I'm curious now, this was not on my roadmap of questions, but what did you think about the scoring system for breaking at the Olympics?
[00:18:53] Speaker B: I didn't pay anymore.
[00:18:54] Speaker A: You didn't pay attention?
[00:18:55] Speaker B: I didn't pay anymore.
[00:18:56] Speaker A: They. I mean, they really tried. Because it's the Olympics. They really, really tried to make.
[00:19:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:02] Speaker A: Something like style or musicality measurable. And I'm like, man, how. Like, that seems so wild to me.
[00:19:08] Speaker B: I applaud.
I applaud the effort.
[00:19:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: But so many dance. It's funny. I'm probably.
Probably. I don't know this to be true.
[00:19:21] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:19:21] Speaker B: But I remember the. Going back to MySpace and Facebook.
I was probably one of the first people in those group of people that was talking about musicality.
[00:19:33] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: Probably with Brian Greene's and the Feel. Right. And after him. So I'm not the first, but I'm definitely pushing that conversation at one point.
And I've studied rhythmic analysis, and I'm an amateur musician and playing some things. And there's a lot of dancers, they don't know what they're talking about when they talk about musicality.
Dancers don't.
Dancers move musically.
It's not the same thing as musicality. Musicality is something that you study, and it has to do with the full tone, color of music.
Dancers don't create harmony. They don't create that sound.
They don't. There's dynamics in their dancing, of course. There's rhythm in their movement. There is understanding of melody. If they know how to use it, they don't create the sound. So you're a reflection of the sound, but are you using it in your movement? And do you understand that you're intentionally moving to the melody with whatever body part the harmonizing would be you in relationship to the music?
[00:20:39] Speaker A: So that's just a groove as another instrument, as another musician.
[00:20:42] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:43] Speaker A: But I know most dancers that I know aren't musicians. And I know a lot of even teachers at the moment who don't know how to count in terms of like a bar.
[00:20:51] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:52] Speaker A: Who don't know the difference between a three, four and a four, four time signature.
[00:20:55] Speaker B: Right.
But I also don't start talking about a six, eight.
[00:20:58] Speaker A: But I also.
Which is hard to find also.
[00:21:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:02] Speaker A: Give me three examples of a song in six, eight.
[00:21:05] Speaker B: I don't know.
[00:21:05] Speaker A: I know there's all I can hear. I have actually tried. I started a playlist for it because I was like, what the. Where does that exist? Anyways, I'll share the playlist. I'll make it public. I think I have four songs on there. Anyways. I don't think one has to be a musician.
[00:21:19] Speaker B: No.
[00:21:19] Speaker A: To have a great sense of musicality. But I understand what you're saying.
[00:21:25] Speaker B: Yeah. They move musically.
[00:21:27] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:27] Speaker B: But musicality is something created through musicianship.
Which dancers are not making any noises.
[00:21:35] Speaker A: Unless we're tap dancing.
[00:21:36] Speaker B: Unless you're tap dancing.
And then it's mostly percussive because you're not necessarily creating a full tone color of musicianship in that level of articulation.
[00:21:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:49] Speaker B: Unless you have your taps hooked up to something.
[00:21:52] Speaker A: Ooh, interesting.
[00:21:53] Speaker B: Like what Gregory Hines did in tap.
[00:21:55] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:55] Speaker B: So to get you like that's going to create some other textures that give. That brings in some other instrumental sounds.
[00:22:02] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:22:03] Speaker B: Without that, I don't know.
[00:22:06] Speaker A: Interesting.
I really want to talk about a situation because I think not only are you an expert in the embodied practice and history of several forms of dance, primarily African diasporic movement, but you are also an advocate for the dance community itself and the health and safety of the dance community. And I know that there several people shared with me an article about some things going down at USC with the freshman class. And things got really hairy over there.
There was a group of people using racist remarks and that being okayed by no clap back from administration.
I think that a situation that was really bad got worse because of how it was handled, or not handled for that matter.
And I love to see especially dancers because I think we're good at it. I like to think that we are.
That dancers like dancers and choreographers make movements and we do movement really well. So if you're talking about pushing the needle in a certain direction, look to artists, look to dancers. People who aren't afraid of using our bodies and are practicing using their voices. How's this for a preamble?
But what I want to say is I think dancers make for great advocates. I think you are an advocate for the dance community. And what I see happening there is a group of dancers self advocating, standing up for themselves.
I'm curious to hear about what you think is going on over there and what you think about this generation, like that age of generation and their ability to make change in the world.
[00:23:49] Speaker B: First of all, I haven't been on campus since December.
[00:23:53] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:23:53] Speaker B: I'm having my own issue with that school.
And and so what I know is just what a few students have shared with me and of course the article itself. I wish I could engage with them more to understand what's happening. Yeah. How they're finding ways to navigate and negotiate this.
It must be an arduous situation for them because I understand that this started back in August when school first started and somehow it wasn't checked.
I can't even imagine that the students themselves didn't check that. And so I grew up in a completely different time period where had anything offensive been directed towards me, you would get checked right then and there. Yeah, I don't care about who's around me. My parents would be like, check that.
And so that the fact that they wouldn't do that on their own is, I'm curious, is like, what's the culture that we're in right now?
[00:24:55] Speaker A: Are we more conflict avoidant? Are we more. Let me process this and then deal with it later.
[00:24:59] Speaker B: And it's like, no, like this, this is not okay. But we're also in a time period where our national administration is okaying it. And so if you grow up in an environment that is like minded in that way, has those same viewpoints, supports that, then you're emboldened to. Well, I'm just going to say whatever.
And it's really interesting that this all came out at the end of the semester and has not been resolved.
So now those same students are going to go home to those environments that support that.
[00:25:41] Speaker A: So when the fall comes back in, encouraged to continue.
[00:25:44] Speaker B: And when the fall comes in, you're going to be right back in it. You're going to have to figure out how to resolve it.
So the fact that the stuff that I heard was just like, what?
[00:25:58] Speaker A: How did this happen and how is it continuing?
[00:26:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't even, I can't even begin to understand how the students let it go on so long.
But again, I haven't been on campus.
[00:26:08] Speaker A: You're not there.
[00:26:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So the, I heard about the gala and I think that the title of the article is kind of all wrong because.
[00:26:18] Speaker A: Yeah, that's some clickbait. Shit. Which is also a problem. The title of the article, which I will link in the show notes, says that the show was canceled because of a student uprising and a walkout.
One of the pieces didn't happen.
[00:26:31] Speaker B: I think two.
[00:26:32] Speaker A: Two of the pieces. I mean, I know the show happened because I have a friend who has work, and I've heard about this situation right. From them, from their feet on the ground.
And I know it was heated over there. I know it was hot. Like, yeah, yeah.
[00:26:45] Speaker B: I heard people were walking around like zombies, keeping their head down and not being.
[00:26:49] Speaker A: But alas, the show did happen.
[00:26:51] Speaker B: The show did happen. But I. I was somewhat bothered by the fact that from what I heard, that students who felt attacked were also.
Also told that they would have to perform with the students that were attacking them verbally. Abusing. Right.
So I was like, that's.
And I think that's where the pushback where. Where some of the pieces didn't happen. I think that was part of it.
[00:27:21] Speaker A: That they just couldn't resolve.
[00:27:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:22] Speaker A: For those.
[00:27:23] Speaker B: And just, like, what. You know, and it. And it made me curious. Even as a professor, I'm like, if there are people who think that way about their students, then you think that way about the professors. I don't want to be in a room with you, if that's what you know. So I'm. For the students, like, y' all need to rectify this.
To me, to my understanding, they, like, took a knee during the bow, which what I think they should have done.
Either walk out and don't do the show at all and just leave them stuck.
Right.
Or if you're gonna wait till the show, till the end of the show, I would have.
I wouldn't have suggested this to them, but if I was in their shoes, what I would have done was walked out to do a bow. Not bow and walked off stage, but taking a knee. Like, for what?
[00:28:18] Speaker A: Well, it's an example that was set for us by the NFL, so we know, like, oh, that's effective. Oh, that people recognize that the game starts.
[00:28:28] Speaker B: I'm knee. Not. I'm taking knee after the show is over.
[00:28:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:31] Speaker B: So either. Don't do it at all. But you have to think, these are young people for sure, fresh out of high school.
[00:28:37] Speaker A: The show is produced by Kenny Ortega and Anita Mann.
[00:28:40] Speaker B: Trying to figure that out. Like, okay, I may want to audition for these people later. I don't want them to see me in a certain light.
But sometimes you have to stand 10 toes down, and it's like, listen, I'll still have a career. But this moment, if it's that important and I need to put, I need to push back, then push back.
[00:28:59] Speaker A: What I see is like in this moment, these young people having to reconcile and balance. Is this thing more important to me than this thing?
[00:29:12] Speaker B: Right.
[00:29:13] Speaker A: Is this justice thing more important to me than this career thing?
[00:29:20] Speaker B: And at their age, and for them.
[00:29:21] Speaker A: To have to make that decision is fucking fucked.
[00:29:24] Speaker B: Yeah, they should.
[00:29:25] Speaker A: I'm really upset at the school for that.
Like, we're in the education space. Let's educate on this important thing.
[00:29:33] Speaker B: Right.
[00:29:33] Speaker A: And this, on this moment where you feel like you have to make a choice between these two things that you are mutually invested in. Yeah, but I, I can't imagine being in their place. But I do think from my couple years down the road from them, age wise, that I think this generation is way better at self advocating than my own.
I think this generation is better at making noise than mine was.
And I am glad that there are people willing to disrupt in this generation. Disrupt. The school is step one. But as you mentioned, this is not a school issue. This is a much, much larger issue. And so yes, it is actually more important than your career.
It is, it is actually more.
[00:30:20] Speaker B: But they don't, at their age, they don't recognize that.
[00:30:23] Speaker A: Okay, so maybe let's step out of these muddied waters for a second and look at in general the future of college dance programs. Because you were a part of a cohort at USC that was like really making some change in the dance department in terms of try. Yeah, I, I, I think succeed. I've looked at their graduating class for the last couple years and I'm.
[00:30:44] Speaker B: Oh, they, yeah, they, they come out doing the thing.
[00:30:47] Speaker A: Yeah, a lot of them. So, so what do you see for the future of college dance programs? Do you see things trending in that general direction?
[00:30:56] Speaker B: I think not spending a lot of time with this question, what I can say is that the model of having more hip hop focused, Hip hop, if you will, hip hop as part of the BFA program, I think people were watching to see if is this going to work? Like what is this? You know.
And when they saw the students performing, especially that first cohort, that first class, when they got to ready to graduate, when Juilliard and them seen them and they seen, at that time, they saw this sort of family structure because Kaufman had that moniker, it was like, oh, it's a family. Like people coming think about going there and whatever how hip hop has been infused. I give it up to Sebela Grimes he's set that all off from understanding what a cypher is like. Not only was his class have a cipher, the ballet class started having ciphers and doing ballet movement like they like. It's just, it's embedded in the school. Once Juilliard and others saw the.
That his dancers had a level of proficiency and groove and technical acuity and all of this stuff.
[00:32:11] Speaker A: Plus community.
[00:32:12] Speaker B: Plus community. Like in their speaking about it, they're very articulate about the history of dance, about what's going on in their place in it.
I think that just blew people back. So then they started having hip hop classes. Not part of their structured program in terms of a degree, but they started having classes. Now there have been universities with classes in hip hop. I've been doing it for the last 22 years, but no one had it as. As part of a mandatory structure in the program.
There's now even.
I don't know how much I can say, but I know they already put it out there. There's now there's a hip hop degree coming out at a university.
I'll leave that there. I don't know how much I could say. They already said it.
[00:33:01] Speaker A: You can come back on the podcast 3.0 and we'll talk about it.
[00:33:04] Speaker B: Yeah, because there might be an interesting, interesting situation there.
[00:33:07] Speaker A: Okay, curious.
[00:33:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
So it's.
Even when Kaufman started, it was suggested that the focus be hip hop and ballet, not modern.
Don't need it. The focus should be hip hop and modern. This was suggested by a few very well known established choreographers, educators.
They didn't follow that. And so I'm looking at these schools and schools are holding on.
They want to hold on and in some cases they have to hold on.
It's an interesting conundrum, if I can say that, use that word. Because they want the old way of what they want the old model.
[00:33:59] Speaker A: We know because tried tested true.
[00:34:01] Speaker B: Right? This works and we know, right, it.
[00:34:03] Speaker A: Worked, but it worked for the old days.
[00:34:05] Speaker B: Right, right. And so now you have young people, whether they're going to school, whether they're in the studios, whether in the streets, wherever they're at, they see the fusion of movement and they just love it. They don't care. Oh, this is this and this is that form that. I love that. I love that. And they're mixing it all. And so if you're not providing that.
So the thing about hip hop and institutions, because I think the dance model that's been. Is going, they're going to, they're going to keep that unless they get away from that and get into this other stuff. But then you're talking about donors and funders who want to see a certain thing. So you have to appease them to get that money.
But the industry also drives it, too. So if the industry takes a shift, y' all gonna have to shift with it.
[00:34:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Because a lot of people engage with dance programs for a career on the outside. They're doing this training so that they can be working.
[00:35:01] Speaker B: Right. So it's. What is your school offering?
Because we see it happening in the industry, you know, for Rich and tone to be like. Whether they choreograph house or not, but Rich and tone, like house.
So for them to ask you, can you freestyle somebody? Like, okay. And y' all can't.
[00:35:19] Speaker A: And how embarrassing to have a $70,000 per year education and not be able to do that.
[00:35:23] Speaker B: Listen, I. I used to. At Kaufman, I would be like, I don't know. Why? What am I doing? They're not. No one choreographs House in the industry. No one does it.
And I would be second guessing myself, like, why am I here teaching? And I know I teach so that you can go enjoy yourself and dance.
There are aspects that I offer that apply to the work field.
But one of the inaugural class, two of them, I think after they graduated or it was either graduation year, got a Broadway show. It didn't work.
But the Broadway show, I forget the name of it. They hired a guy from Belgium to do the choreography, and he was doing all House.
And my two students was the only two that knew what house was.
So he used them. They became the rehearsal directors.
[00:36:19] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:36:19] Speaker B: To teach everybody else who had no clue.
[00:36:22] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:36:23] Speaker B: I was like, y' all have to. The. The industry is shifting. And as.
[00:36:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:27] Speaker B: As new choreographers come in who are interested and. Or well versed in crumping or this or that. And the third, y' all need to be teaching this in your schools.
And if you're not, as you said, what am I paying this money for if I'm not getting the education? If my goal is to work, y' all are not prepping me for the industry.
What are we doing? So it's. Who cares if you can remember Balanchine?
Like, so you ain't performing Balanchine when you get out here. Now, if you want to chase a ballet company and they're doing that work, go to Juilliard.
[00:36:59] Speaker A: But also, even ballet companies, like classic ballet companies, so much fusion and so much otherness, which, thankfully, because, man, there.
[00:37:09] Speaker B: Is a lot of value in learning ballet.
Excuse me.
[00:37:13] Speaker A: I love where we're headed. Keep going.
[00:37:16] Speaker B: But it's not the end, all be.
[00:37:17] Speaker A: All, and it's certainly not the beginning of everything.
[00:37:21] Speaker B: Oh, forget it.
[00:37:22] Speaker A: We've covered this.
[00:37:24] Speaker B: Listen, I shut ballet dancers down all the time.
And simply, simply put, if you started, if you go back to when ballet was B A L L I, and you talk to the Italians, you talk to France, even if we went back to the very beginning, and I grace you with the year 1400, because it wasn't 1400, but if I grace you to the beginning of that century, that's still only 600 something years, 700 something in there. I'm terrible at math, but Bharat Natyam is way older.
[00:38:00] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:38:00] Speaker B: So is like Katak, and so is African and so is Aboriginal dance.
First of all, dance has been suggested to start during the Paleolithic years, which is 2.5 million years ago.
How is ballet the beginning?
[00:38:20] Speaker A: Come on.
[00:38:21] Speaker B: And first of all, I studied baroque dances.
They came before ballet.
[00:38:27] Speaker A: It's not, not, not a tondu to be seen.
[00:38:30] Speaker B: They came before ballet. So I'm like, yeah, yeah, no, we.
[00:38:35] Speaker A: Can'T have that conversation again.
[00:38:36] Speaker B: But it's, it's a beautiful form if you understand it for its cultural, social parameters. It's beautiful art form.
And there's value in it. Like, there's value in everything. Any form of dance you do, it's just not the end all, be all. But if the industry is shifting, then we don't need five days a week for this.
You'll be fine. You're not going to lose it. Even if you only had three days a week, you're not going to lose it. You're not going to. If you continue dancing. So you can have others, or you can have five days of this over here and three days of that or two or whatever the thing is.
But the pinnacle that that has been placed on and the hierarchy that comes with it, that is a disruptor.
That is.
That's the problem. Because of the mindset that goes with it, right?
[00:39:30] Speaker A: The constraints.
Like I'm just maybe misused the word, but it's slightly oppressive. It feels oppressive.
That segues us into my next question, which is a conversation I've been having with a lot of people lately. My old favorite question was, what's the difference between technique and style? That's my favorite thing. I was like, you want to talk for an hour and a half? This is it. Ready, let's go. But lately it's.
Do you think? And I Am asking you because I want to know your answer. Do you think that classical training can be harmful to a person who is interested in performing their uniqueness, period? But, like, freestyle African diasporic movement in general, social dancing, like, is me hardcore training at ballet hurting me in my ability to freestyle or connect with African diasporic movement or social dance? Like, because I was on a convention weekend with dear friend Chloe Arnold, also previous podcast guest, and she was like, yo, two of my favorite students from last year. Favorite students, like, gave them all the scholarships, all the awards, gifted them to come to her DC Tap Fest for completely free. Like, people that she really invested in have doubled down on ballet, doing all the ballet intensives. And she was like, dude, they lost it.
They lost it. They lost the thing, the spark, the heart, the thing. And I, for the first time, it's just like the story of like, ballet is the foundation of all styles.
How that was like so spoken that you just kind of start like, okay. Until you find out that it's not. I have heard myself say out loud, it couldn't hurt to add a ballet class per week. And I genuinely, I genuinely believed it. But after this conversation with Chloe, I started thinking.
I was like, oh, I don't know if I. I don't know if I want to say that anymore. I don't know if I actually believe that anymore. What do you think?
[00:41:23] Speaker B: Well, if you let the right teacher.
[00:41:27] Speaker A: If you let it.
[00:41:28] Speaker B: Yeah. If you let that ideology stifle you.
[00:41:33] Speaker A: Or stifle you or.
[00:41:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Then that becomes the problem.
And it's, it's fascinating. Like, people who started studying ballet at three or five and you've been dancing that, and now you're, you're 18 or some of you are in your 30s and 40s who teach and pushing 50s or 60s, that you studied that long and you can't groove. I don't understand.
[00:42:02] Speaker A: Ooh, that's humbling.
[00:42:04] Speaker B: I don't understand at all. Like, I come from a different cultural practice, but if I've been studying dance for 18 years and you can't do a simple bounce to music, you can't two step in time with music. That's a struggle.
So they, again, we've been. People have been placed under the guise that ballet is this bigger than life thing and it's just not.
You don't need it to do other forms of dance. It actually hinders you.
[00:42:37] Speaker A: That's kind of what I'm thinking.
[00:42:38] Speaker B: Because the structure, again, you have to take yourself out of that. You have to like, you have to get out of the lifted spine and get more into the curve and the grounded spine.
[00:42:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
And.
[00:42:51] Speaker B: But it's interesting because if I'm.
Whether I'm doing authentic j. I hate saying authentic, but whether I'm doing authentic jazz or hip hop, and I'm bouncing right, and I got that movement going.
The same muscles you use to do that are the same muscles that you use in ballet.
Your hams, your glutes, your core, all that's still being utilized. It's just an aesthetic difference.
[00:43:22] Speaker A: Yeah, it's an alignment thing.
[00:43:23] Speaker B: That's it. So technically, that's really it.
[00:43:28] Speaker A: Anatomically, yeah.
[00:43:29] Speaker B: But it's how we going flow to the music. So music calls for certain things. The ideas to music calls for certain things.
But technique is just a word that means. In my opinion, means structural alignment. The skeletal structural alignment is all that technique is. It allows the body to execute something.
But the technique is not relegated or dedicated to ballet.
Technique is in everything.
[00:43:54] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:43:55] Speaker B: No one wants to have heart surgery with a surgeon who doesn't have good technique.
[00:43:58] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:43:59] Speaker B: So it's in everything.
But specific to dance, we're just using the skeleton different.
So it's not better or worse.
It's not good or bad. It's just different.
And that's not appreciated because the ballet world thinks that they run this.
[00:44:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
I have a. I've got a thing about it right now. I'm learning. I'm really questioning this. Couldn't hurt.
[00:44:25] Speaker B: If you don't balance it out, it's going to. I've had students who, years ago, when I taught at UArts in Philadelphia, come up to me, and it was like, I feel some kind of way. And I was like, why? Because I'm struggling in your class, and I should. Black students. I should be able to do this.
But do you do it? Do you regularly do it, or do you just do the ballet? Have you centered that?
[00:44:47] Speaker A: Yeah, because that's. I mean, there's like repetition, muscle memory, the creation of pathways of certain. Like, if I move my arm like this 18 times a day, and then more than 18, and then. And then all of a sudden, I'm asking it to move like this. It's a different pathway. Of course it's gonna feel a little clunky at the beginning. But I think it's more than just the technique. I think it's the philosophies. I think it's the culture. I think it's the water that. That you're swimming in when you're in a standing at bar yeah.
And versus dancing in a club like they are, I can't think of more opposite spaces. And I do think you're right. You can have both. And that, like, if I know that left hand on the bar, right arm in second isn't the only way. Like, if I'm thinking while I'm standing here doing bar, of all the things that I know from not standing at bar, I do think a crazy holistic approach to that can be really beneficial. Like, actually, it is borderline sacrilege. But when I'm teaching some choreography that calls on locking vocabulary, which is often because it is my favorite style of dance, and I'm teaching a room full of people who I know have majority classical training, and I'm telling them about a pace or about a sandpoint. I explained to them that it's more like the line of your arm and second than it is a locked out elbow. Like, that's. That's not funky at all. Look at that. I'm looking at it and it's not funky. I can see that it.
[00:46:22] Speaker B: Unless the rest of the body is asymmetrical, then maybe.
[00:46:26] Speaker A: But still, if you. It's just a little microbe, which. Which if I'm talking to somebody who I know has a lot of ballet, I can say it's almost like second position. But it isn't, because Don Campbellock had no knowledge of his second position when he. When he. When he did this. But if I can give the relationship to the thing, then yes, I like a holistic approach. Yes.
But, man, I. I do think that, like, the philosophies, the culture, as well as the pathways that are just stick straight up and down, it's the anti funk, and I prefer funk, so.
[00:47:03] Speaker B: Well, I mean, it's. I was just in Sweden at ballet Academy teaching, and I was telling them all cultures pretty much use the same movement.
It's just aesthetically approached in a different way.
So I called a couple ballet students to the front because it was supposedly a ballet school, but they have other classes.
So I said to them, all right, give me a glissade with a chape.
And they did it. I was like, now I love ballet.
[00:47:33] Speaker A: When it's with my hands, by the way.
[00:47:35] Speaker B: Right? That's the only way I can do it. It's the only way I can do it.
[00:47:38] Speaker A: Okay?
[00:47:39] Speaker B: I was like, now give me a glissade without any technique. Don't even think about technique. Just give me a glissade. In terms of direction, don't jump.
[00:47:51] Speaker A: It's a step Touch.
[00:47:52] Speaker B: Give me a grand plie. And somewhere between the plie and the grand plie, Right? Give me that. With no technique, just the direction and give it to me in this time. I'm like that. Yeah. See what you just did? Once they do it and I got to give them a little more direction because they're still stuck in that framing for sure.
[00:48:09] Speaker A: And they don't want to be wrong. And they're right.
[00:48:11] Speaker B: There's no wrong in dancing. You either like it or you don't like it.
Once they do it, I'm like, yeah, that's a skating house.
Or skate and hip hop.
Just. We do the same thing. Even when you were like, lifting up.
[00:48:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:23] Speaker B: You do that in locking.
[00:48:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:48:25] Speaker B: Then you have to come up. You don't.
It's here. So it's all like. We all do the same stuff. We just have aesthetic differences here and there. But the body is being used the same way, and you just gotta know it.
And a lot of times they don't know it. And it's funny, I was subbing a lecture class and they had just started talking about ballet and the position five positions, which come from the minuet. But I was like, okay, they don't know nothing else. All right. So I show up and they just started learning about this.
So I have some pictures of the five positions. Right. Is that familiar? Whatever.
Then I showed them photos of LA gang members and hip hop people in New York in the 80s. I was like, Ain't that first position? Ain't that second position? Ain't that third position? They don't know ballet.
Them positions are just a proper way for the skeleton itself to stand upright without falling. That's all that is.
People made it specific to dance, but everybody already did that anyway.
To stand apart with your legs apart is common. You see hip hop artists do that. Yeah, like this there. But I'm like, but it's been. And when ballet first started, the turnout was 45 degrees.
[00:49:49] Speaker A: Or if you're me, it's still 45 degrees.
[00:49:51] Speaker B: Yeah. But now they feed it backwards. I'm like, yeah, it's too much. And then went too far with it. It's like when I watch people stretch their legs and stretch them to the point where now they got to be on the floor and put one leg on a chair.
I was like, y' all are doing a lot.
[00:50:04] Speaker A: Lot. It's too much. They're doing the actual most.
[00:50:06] Speaker B: Right.
[00:50:07] Speaker A: With weights on the ankles and all sorts. We're not going to get into that.
[00:50:10] Speaker B: Yeah. So.
[00:50:12] Speaker A: But we're going to gently segue Moncel into some rapid fire. So wrist roll with it is the name of this rapid fire round. You got to roll with it. Are you ready?
[00:50:19] Speaker B: I will do my best.
[00:50:20] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:50:21] Speaker B: Does that mean I have to answer fast?
[00:50:22] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:50:23] Speaker B: Oh, Lord. Come on, let's go.
[00:50:24] Speaker A: Coffee or tea?
[00:50:27] Speaker B: Oh, coffee.
[00:50:28] Speaker A: Dogs or cats?
[00:50:29] Speaker B: Cats. Oh.
[00:50:31] Speaker A: Favorite color?
[00:50:32] Speaker B: Blue.
[00:50:32] Speaker A: Favorite move?
[00:50:34] Speaker B: Like a dance move?
[00:50:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:35] Speaker B: None.
[00:50:36] Speaker A: How about least favorite dance move?
[00:50:38] Speaker B: None.
[00:50:39] Speaker A: Like, even in your body, like, is there a move that you're like, oh, my body? I don't want to do that. For me, it's a sea jump them.
[00:50:47] Speaker B: Maybe a dive.
[00:50:48] Speaker A: Okay, fair. Like there's a moment for that, but we don't need to be doing that.
[00:50:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And I do it a lot.
[00:50:54] Speaker A: How about a guilty pleasure? An indulgence that you will lean into and aren't so proud of. Maybe.
[00:51:02] Speaker B: That I can say.
[00:51:05] Speaker A: On camera.
[00:51:06] Speaker B: Chocolate.
[00:51:07] Speaker A: Okay, fair.
[00:51:07] Speaker B: I have high blood pressure, so I shouldn't be eating it.
[00:51:09] Speaker A: Be doing it.
[00:51:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:51:10] Speaker A: Dark chocolate or milk chocolate?
[00:51:12] Speaker B: Dark chocolate.
[00:51:13] Speaker A: Same. I'm like, if it's not 95 or higher, I don't care. I don't want it.
How about the last song that you, like, fully belted or, like, sang along with? Yeah. What is that face?
[00:51:29] Speaker B: Last dance. Donna Summers.
[00:51:32] Speaker A: Pissed that I wasn't there.
Pissed that I wasn't there for that. I do have one more question for you on the rapid fire round. Try to go with it.
I'm looking for words that move you. A mantra, a quote, a guiding principle. Mine used to be, I'm shopping for a new one. This is also why I ask my guests, like, what are the words that move you? Because maybe they move me. Me too. Mine used to be no favors for.
I had a really hard. I would. My default answer is yes. Anything you need. Oh, absolutely. I can. Oh, yeah, totally. And now I just. I. I got very good at no favors for. And now it's no longer an issue for me, so I'm looking for a new mantra. Ready, set, go.
[00:52:10] Speaker B: You don't want mine?
[00:52:11] Speaker A: What is it favors for?
[00:52:13] Speaker B: No, my favorite word is jackass.
[00:52:18] Speaker A: Good word.
[00:52:20] Speaker B: But most of my words come down to acronyms.
[00:52:24] Speaker A: Oh, that's right. Yes. I feel like you laid a couple.
[00:52:26] Speaker B: On the last episode, so those always stand out to me.
And I'll give you the dance one. I feel like I gave you that one before, so I'll give you improv as well.
But dance is discovering the autobiographical self, negotiating creativity and expression.
[00:52:42] Speaker A: I'm very impressed at the speed with which you recalled that acronym, Discovery of Association of Non.
[00:52:49] Speaker B: So human beings are in constant discovery of what? Our narrative. So they're discovering the autobiographical.
[00:52:55] Speaker A: Autobiographical, yeah.
[00:52:56] Speaker B: Autobiography. I'm sorry, I mumble sometimes.
[00:52:57] Speaker A: No, no, no. It was just fast.
[00:52:59] Speaker B: But what are we negotiating? So then. Negotiating. What are we negotiating? Our minds, our body, our gender, our voice, our culture, et cetera, et cetera. The creativity then becomes the production of those things, and then the expression is a space that we allow ourselves to be vulnerable enough to express ourselves to other people and more importantly, ourselves.
[00:53:21] Speaker A: Gorgeous.
[00:53:21] Speaker B: So an improv, an internal meditation, playfully revealing objective variables.
[00:53:27] Speaker A: Yes.
Yes, it is. Thank you for these acronyms. And thank you mostly for being here, shining your light on the podcast and everywhere that you shine your light, because your voice is so important and knowledgeable. And I'm just. I'm grateful. Thank you. Thank you.
[00:53:43] Speaker B: I appreciate it.
[00:53:44] Speaker A: Thank you, Moncel. And thank you, listener, viewer, for being here. Be sure to subscribe. Click the bell for notifications. Leave a review or a rating, even share the podcast with your friends. I love that.
But most importantly, get out into the world. Keep it very funky and I'll talk to you soon.
This podcast was produced by me with the help of many. Big, big love to our executive assistant and editor, Riley Higgins. Our communications manager is Fiona Small, with additional support from Ori Vajrares. Our music is by Max Winnie, logo and brand design by Bree Reitz. And if you're digging the podcast, leave a review and rating and please share. Also, if you want to connect with me and the many marvelous members of the Words that Move Me community, visit Words that Move me dot com. If you're simply curious to know more about me and the work that I do outside of this podcast, visit thedanawilson.com.
