Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: All that I can focus on in those moments are if they're missing their mark or if they're.
[00:00:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:00:04] Speaker A: So in those moments, like, you're blacked out. It's not like, oh, these are like, my second moms.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Right.
[00:00:09] Speaker A: But it's like, hit your mark, citizen. Yes, but.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: Mm hmm.
Hey, friends, it's Dana. This is words that move me. This is wrist roll. The dog at feeding time.
Very hungry. So we're going to get through this intro very fast. My friends, I'm thrilled that you're here. I am so excited for this episode. It's been a long time coming. I've been trying to have our guest, Taylor James, kind of like James Taylor, but backwards. Trying to have him on the podcast for years now. Dear friend, beyond talented dancer and now blossoming as a writer director, Taylor has a lot of insight about some of the challenges, the nastier, dirtier bits, pulling back the curtain on what it means to be a dancer, as well as a lot of really awesome wins to celebrate and some great techniques for you and how you are thinking about your vices, your urges, yourself, and the relationship between you and your value in the world. This is a big one. But first, let's do some wins. Today I am celebrating a successful redecoration of the space. I have added, as you, you can tell, mylar streamers to an entire wall of my place. And that came along with a lot of heavy lifting. Light on the arms, but heavy on the mind because.
Excuse me, I'm talking adhesives on the west side of the building. That wall gets pretty warm. Turns out in the middle of summer in Los Angeles. I understand you are hungry and I am trying to do my ins and outs.
We used to call them ins and outs. We don't do outs anymore. I understand. Just 1 second, please. Kelly Machete. Thank you so much for your help with round one. Natalia Z. Thank you so much for the brainstorming that led to this point and party city down the street over on Ventura. Thank you for offering such cheap and such visually pleasing decor.
Tiny. We're almost there. That's my win. That is what I'm celebrating. Up. Up.
Now you go. What's going well in your world?
Good girl. Stay.
Congratulations, my friend. I'm so glad you're winning. I hope you continue to win, and I hope that my curtains continue to stay up on the wall. All right, let's jump into this conversation, shall we? Taylor James has more dance credits than I do, and watching him win into this next phase of his career is an absolute treat and a treasure. So is this conversation. I hope you enjoy the one and only Taylor James.
That was bad.
Ho.
Welcome to the podcast, Taylor James. Let's cut that.
[00:03:29] Speaker A: I was like, oh, it started. Okay, great.
[00:03:32] Speaker B: Very unofficial start. Well, here's the funny part. Before this happens, as you know. Cause you've watched at least one episode of this show, I do an intro for you without you sitting here. So after you leave, I'm gonna do an intro for you.
[00:03:44] Speaker A: You go, oh, wow.
[00:03:45] Speaker B: And then.
[00:03:46] Speaker A: So honest.
[00:03:47] Speaker B: Yes. That's what I'm gonna say. Wait, have you read your thank you card?
[00:03:50] Speaker A: No, I didn't. Sorry.
[00:03:51] Speaker B: You don't have to read it right now. But I do say in that you.
[00:03:54] Speaker A: Read it on camera, live.
[00:03:55] Speaker B: I was like, one of the things I really love about you is your honesty. You are one of the friends in my life that I know will not bullshit me and has no reason to. But for some reason, a lot of us bullshit a lot of the time, and you are not a bullshitter. And so I'm so excited to have you on the podcast for your honesty, for your talent, for your point of view, and all your many experiences.
Riz is thrilled. Also. You just can't tell because she's having a very nappy day.
But welcome to the podcast. Hey. Hi.
[00:04:24] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so stoked to be here.
[00:04:26] Speaker B: I'm so excited. Okay, so I will ask you to introduce yourself. People find this to be challenging. I'm wondering how you'll respond. Cause you're a multi type, but, yeah. Tell us anything you want us to know about you.
[00:04:39] Speaker A: Well, my name is Taylor James. I'm a retired backup dancer turned director and screenwriter and, yeah, from Canada. And I moved here 14 years ago and had a successful dance career and transitioned about five years ago into filmmaking.
[00:04:57] Speaker B: And even while you were dancing, you were a multi type person, right? Were you always into fashion? Because this person has styled me from a few pieces in my closet mixed with a few pieces in your closet mixed with a very quick run to the goodwill in looks that are some of my favorite looks that I've ever been photographed in, that I've ever worn, that I've ever danced in. Part of me actually wanted, if I wasn't feeling my outfit, so much, wanted for us to, like, do a quick cut and go style me, really?
[00:05:29] Speaker A: And then I'd come back. Yeah.
[00:05:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:30] Speaker A: Oh, I love it. It's like a makeover from, like, a nineties movie. Yeah. My absolute favorite. I've always been, like, really into fashion, and I've always been, like, really drawn to that world. Fashion models, photography. I was a photographer the whole time that I was a dancer. I still am a photographer.
[00:05:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:46] Speaker A: But I've been doing them professionally for about the same amount of time.
[00:05:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:50] Speaker A: So I do think, like, there was, you know, I had a bit of a different lens, maybe, than, like, a lot of the other dancers in our group when I was first in Los Angeles, just being that I had a background in something very different other than dance. Yeah. And just like, you know, like a real sort of, like, understanding and appreciation of, like, aesthetics and branding. Yeah, yeah. I think branding is a big one.
[00:06:11] Speaker B: Your eye is so keen.
I was very thrilled on myself that you liked the layout of the space, because I think you have a really critical eye, and I like the way you put things together, not just in space, but like you said, a brand.
[00:06:30] Speaker A: Something that wouldn't work in my house. Correct. I saw it and I was like, oh, that's very dana. It's, like, perfect.
[00:06:35] Speaker B: Yes. I think a shitty plastic, like, a really cheap thing that sparkles is very me. Yeah, it's true. I've always loved a cheap thing that sparkles.
[00:06:46] Speaker A: It brings so much movement and personality to the space. Movement is what on ad, but it's like. It adds, like, a lot of movement personality. It reflects colors and light. So, like, with the setup that you're sort of doing here, can they see.
[00:06:56] Speaker B: It a little bit behind the scenes? A little bit.
[00:06:58] Speaker A: They can take a peek.
[00:06:59] Speaker B: The other thing, the movement is critical, but also the quick and the changeability of it. It's tough for me to commit. Like, even the bookshelf, which always gets talked about, it was like a commitment, man. And I don't love to commit to things. I have wanted to wallpaper this wall forever and thought of eight different things that I would have loved there. Riz, just pretend to be interested.
But, yeah, this is it. And it's changeable. It was more or less fast. I will tell you, if you are interested in Mylar streamering an entire wall of your home, you need to make sure that you are not doing a wall that faces east or west, because the heat that this wall receives in the second half of the day. These puppies come down often. I'm having to restick the three. I should. I should staple them.
[00:07:49] Speaker A: It's a rental. Whatever. Put a little toothpaste in it when you move out or whatever.
[00:07:53] Speaker B: It's not a rental. I own this bedroom.
[00:07:55] Speaker A: Oh, sorry, I forgot some people have more successful dance careers than others.
[00:08:00] Speaker B: No, let's talk about your successful dance career. Oh, really? Our shoes are cute because, I mean, I spent 20 years of my life. I mean, on and off, but 20 years working for Justin Timberlake. In those same 20 years, you worked for 1415, like, all of them artists. Katy Perry, Beyonce, Justin Timberlake. Also, who am I leaving out?
[00:08:24] Speaker A: Jlo.
[00:08:25] Speaker B: Jlo. Oh, God.
I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: It's fine.
[00:08:31] Speaker B: Taylor rubs off on me. Your honesty is contagious. So I want to know if anything stands out about that time to you, positive or negative. We'll start there and then, because that was some years ago now. When was the last time you dance gigged?
[00:08:45] Speaker A: I retired from dance probably like five, six years ago. I've done probably, like, two jobs with dancing since then.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: Okay. Okay.
[00:08:55] Speaker A: One being a music video that Megan Lawson asked me to do.
[00:08:59] Speaker B: Was it the Adele one?
[00:09:00] Speaker A: No, I assisted her on that one. No, it was for Ed Sheeran. And Megan famously asked me if I wanted to do an Ed Shereen music video, and I was like, okay, we need to talk.
[00:09:13] Speaker B: That's wonderful. Okay. Yes, she talked about that when she was on the podcast. She talked about that video. Okay, so, yes, that tracks. What do you remember about that time?
[00:09:25] Speaker A: You know, it was. I honestly, like, I don't really think about my dance life. It feels like my lore at this point. I think probably because I'm, like, so focused on trying to grow and evolve in a different industry and, like, basically, like, start from the bottom again.
[00:09:42] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:09:43] Speaker A: But I just. There was nothing that I wanted more before I moved to Los Angeles than to be a professional dancer. And I worked so hard in Canada to sort of build up a resume and make those connections and train so that when I got here, I could be successful.
[00:10:00] Speaker B: Yeah, you were well set up. Like, you set yourself up well.
[00:10:03] Speaker A: And we also, too, like, I'm from Canada, so I was like, obviously you're on zero one. Many zero one s. And we were really lucky because a big group of us who had done. So you think you can dance the canadian version? Rip.
We all moved at the same time. So there was, like, a dozen of us who had sort of been friends and dancing together for at least two years, and we moved out as, like, a group. And everybody call us Team Canada.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:10:25] Speaker A: And we just, you know, kind of, like, took over the industry in a way. Like, everybody moved and was really successful, and there was, you know, there was some animosity and, you know, the dance community about some of that stuff, but those I mean, what are the haters doing?
[00:10:43] Speaker B: Come on.
[00:10:44] Speaker A: And I just. Yeah, it was just, like, moving here with, like, your closest group of friends and proving, I guess, like, proving to ourselves that we could do it. It's like we all had, like, these really big dreams and. And wanted it so bad. And I think the thing that, like, people don't think about with dancers on zero one s or anybody sort of on an zero one is, like, there's no other option. Like, we couldn't. If we were struggling, we couldn't go get a job at Starbucks or fold t shirts at Abercrombie at night like, friends of ours would. Like, urban dance was the only job that we could do.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:19] Speaker A: So the pressure at those auditions, it's like, okay, you think we're extra. It's like, we don't have a choice. If I don't book this job and I don't book the next job, I might have to move back to my country, and I'll never get to stay here. So.
[00:11:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think I ever overlapped it on audition with you, but I want to see full out Taylor James at an audition I have seen.
[00:11:37] Speaker A: It was crazy. I believe that it was, like, things that I actually physically cannot do that.
[00:11:42] Speaker B: Came out of your body all the time.
[00:11:43] Speaker A: People were like, I didn't know you were flexible. I was like, I'm nothing at all.
[00:11:48] Speaker B: Just pulling.
[00:11:49] Speaker A: I'm just actually chronically injured. Yeah. Is basically what it was. No, I would get possessed. But I think, you know, I think, like, my skill sets in dance because I did. I worked a lot, and I had an amazing career, and I'm so thankful and, like, grateful for all of those experiences. It wasn't because I was the best dancer in Los Angeles. I was good.
[00:12:11] Speaker B: You're very good.
[00:12:12] Speaker A: No, I could hold my own with most people, obviously. There was, like, all of these aliens that I was like, how are you moving like that? Yeah. But I could hold my own. But I was. I understood, like, the marketing, branding aspect of being a performer.
[00:12:25] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:12:25] Speaker A: And I feel like I really honed in on that early.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: And, you know, I saw the career I wanted, and I. And I would. Oh, my God.
Okay. Loving the story.
[00:12:39] Speaker B: Are you cool with that?
[00:12:40] Speaker A: I'm obsessed.
[00:12:40] Speaker B: Okay, great.
[00:12:41] Speaker A: That's really fine.
I. And I also. Yeah, I was good at auditioning, and I was. I was good at auditioning, and I was good at marketing and branding myself.
[00:12:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:51] Speaker A: You know, I knew what I, you know, I knew what's. What spot I wanted to sort of like, take up in the industry. And.
[00:12:56] Speaker B: And what do you think made you good at auditioning?
Can you remember? Was it, like, mindset outfit approach? Like, you mentioned being, like, too much, which sometimes is a tactic, right. You got to get yourself noticed. I remember auditioning with Danielle Polanco, who is, like, the definition of, I don't know, too much. She's perfectly at all the right levels.
[00:13:20] Speaker A: Of things, but she's perfectly too much. Like, she's. She's.
She. Well, unlike. Unlike Danielle Blanco, I don't have, like, I'm not trained in every style. I haven't perfected every style. Like, she's a true master of dance. And I've always had so much love and respect for her co sign, but she has audacity, and I think the audacity is, like, the part that separates you. It's like I struggled. You know, I think a lot of my decisions still in my life are very fear based. Fear of failure, fear of letting people down, being perfectionist.
[00:13:53] Speaker B: Oh, yes.
[00:13:54] Speaker A: But I think, you know, I was able to sort of disassociate in those moments and be like, I don't care if somebody's judging me. I don't care if somebody thinks I'm doing too much or I'm pulling too much focus or if I'm. Whatever. Yeah, I really. I think if I reflect on, like, my dance life, my dance career, I really had, like, an ability to step into this false sense of confidence as a performer and as an auditioner.
[00:14:20] Speaker B: I'm here for confidence in whatever, whether it's false or not. A lot of people think that that is the key to auditioning. I don't know if it is or not. But I do know that fear is, like, the kiss of death at an audition. And if you're.
[00:14:34] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:14:35] Speaker B: Unless I.
I've never needed to cast someone who looks afraid ever, because I don't work in that genre much. But to look afraid is a kiss of death at an audition. Okay, moving on. Dance today. Cause you still are very in touch with, like, I think at least, I think you have a really unique position as, like, a person who knows intimately this industry, the quirks of it, the ins of it, the outs of it, the pain of it, and also.
No, mostly pain.
If you had to report on dance today from your 30,000 foot view, what would you say is going on in the industry?
[00:15:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, we saw this shift happen, and we've had conversations about this, particularly the conversations that I've had the most, I think about that shift while it was happening was, like, with bodies. Yeah. Was with you and. And Jillian. Megan.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:15:33] Speaker A: Because I think from your guys side of things, and you talked about this in your episode with Megan listening on the way over. Good student.
But that sort of, like, oh, like, that's. I'm not doing it for that. It should be like this lived experience, like, in the thing, like, the purity of that experience. And I think something that, you know, allows people from past generations of any industry to be able to evolve with it, is to understand and notice the trends and embrace them rather than sort of reject them. And I think, you know, there's this huge sort of point that, like, we've talked about many times, and I've had this conversation with you guys many times, but it's like, the judgment and the fear around being judged or being looked at in a way that isn't favorable, like, isn't the way that you want to sort of be viewed, being misunderstood? Yes. Trying to be in control of, like, how that experience is, how you're perceived in the industry, I think, is it paralyzes you from being able to move forward in the industry. And it's like what I'm seeing right now in the dance world and from the other side of things, like, I direct, I do music videos and commercials, and I have to cast people. And I'm on the other side of the table. I'm with clients. There's other people above me that are making final decisions on a lot of things. And if you're a dancer and you're not posting dance content constantly, if you're not trying to build a following, which is leverage in the industry, then you're sort of, like, you're failing yourself, because I think the. I.
You were. You were even a little bit before me, but we were very much in, like, the same generation. You just.
[00:17:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:17:07] Speaker A: Started earlier, and we're better, but, like, we got the tail end of the dance experience that I think most dancers want.
[00:17:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:18] Speaker A: And it's not, you know, I don't think that.
[00:17:20] Speaker B: And by that, you mean, like, the part where a social media following was.
[00:17:23] Speaker A: Nothing, a critical factor, putting any of yourself out there wasn't a factor. It was just show up to the audition, have a good job, have a good shot. Yeah. Tour with the artist, be in the movies, be in the tv shows, and then get to live your life separately. You're not. It's not, you know, it can be a full time job when you're working, but now it's sort of like a full time job when you're not working. And that's sort of how you said.
[00:17:44] Speaker B: Yes, you have to be a dancer all the time. All the time living that dance life.
[00:17:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Because it's a business. And I think, you know, people, before, there was a lot more business happening outside of you, and you'd step into the business, whereas now it's like you really, I mean, dancers have always been their own business, but you really have to view yourself as a single establishment business. What am I doing to market my business? What am I doing to get my business in front of other people? How do I get people to buy from my business?
[00:18:12] Speaker B: What does my storefront look like?
[00:18:14] Speaker A: Yeah, what does my storefront look like?
[00:18:16] Speaker B: Whoa. Very astute. Keen observation. And, yeah, I try to not be paralyzed by thoughts of that for a while. I was really good at daily posts. It was a focus for me. Yeah, you did.
It was my only focus, actually, some days.
And since then, that habit of shipping, no matter what, has been broken and is interfered by a lot of negative self talk and thoughts about, oh, it won't be received. Well, people won't like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna. And that's so lame. I don't like it. I do think you can have both, though. A high standard for your work and a frequent ship button. You just have to. What is the secret to that?
[00:19:07] Speaker A: What is a ship button? Sorry, just.
[00:19:08] Speaker B: So I'm ship button?
[00:19:10] Speaker A: Ship.
[00:19:10] Speaker B: Like hit send? Like hithenite post.
[00:19:13] Speaker A: Oh, yes.
[00:19:13] Speaker B: Like, frequently shipping. I love this question.
[00:19:16] Speaker A: When I hear shipping, I love brain wrought. So when I hear ship, I think of, like, a boat. No, a fan. A fandom who's obsessed with two characters and they put them in pretend relationships. They call it shipping. Uh oh. Excuse me for being Gen Z.
[00:19:29] Speaker B: Down with the culture of the youth was not familiar. I just got Ed shereened.
[00:19:35] Speaker A: You got Ed Sherianed hard. Yeah.
[00:19:38] Speaker B: Okay, so hit ship, meaning like, hit deliver, hit send. And I missed that habit, and I missed the conversation that came along with it, which was, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. But what's on the other side of that is thinking. It does matter. What people think of me does matter, which is also true.
[00:19:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:56] Speaker B: So the bottom line for me is whichever one you're holding is the one that will dominate. It's the one that will decide how you behave.
[00:20:04] Speaker A: Whatever muscle you work out the most is the strongest. The other one will atrophy. So you have to be intentional. If you're shifting a behavior to actively strengthen the other muscle while realizing that this other one is still stronger until you sort of shift the balance.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay.
Speaking of shift, I am so impressed at your ability to career shift. I know a lot of people, dancers and non dancers, who are afraid. You talk about making fear based decisions, afraid of losing relevance, afraid of losing their footing, afraid of not having money. So keep doing the thing that was working just because they're afraid of the unknown.
[00:20:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:45] Speaker B: So can you talk a little bit about your decision to retire?
[00:20:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:49] Speaker B: You. I mean, you kind of were always doing photography, but the decision to become a writer and a director, did you start saying no to dance jobs because that was your focus or.
[00:21:01] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, no. I mean, I could have. You know, I could still be dancing had I not stopped. You know, there was still, you know, people would hit me up to do jobs all the time. If I'm being 100% honest, I was sort of, like, falling out of love with dance. I just found myself kind of disgruntled on a lot of jobs. You know, I've been doing it for a long time. The pain never increased. The respect level didn't increase much. And, you know, you're working so hard at that level, and there's so much pressure on the dancers. Like, people I don't think understand.
It's. Even when I see bad dancing and I'm just like, oh, my God, dance is embarrassing. I'm still thinking they have so much pressure on them right now. And, like, people don't understand, like, what that sort of. How toxic that kind of environment can be.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:49] Speaker A: And especially, I don't know how things have sort of shifted in the industry, but there was a lot of. There's a lot of toxic behaviors that were really accepted in our era and before.
[00:21:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:00] Speaker A: With choreographers and stuff getting away with, like, kind of abusive methods of training.
[00:22:04] Speaker B: I think that's another shift, actually, to jump back to what you were saying before about the environment, the 24/7 ness of our job now, and the importance of being visible in what we do all the time. But also there is a shift in the diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility side of things. Thank God people aren't allowed to say things anymore that they would say all the time. I have been pinched and asked, what are you eating like? That is a real thing that happened on a real job with a real person that I actually love. And there are some changes in that area which I am very grateful for.
[00:22:40] Speaker A: We're all reflecting, sort of like, where we're at. You know what I mean, and I think I'm saying this about people sort of speaking out of turn or whatever, and it's like, I'm sure that I've had my fair share of moments and rehearsals where it's never, ever been my intention to put anybody down or hurt anybody's feelings, but because I'm always joking and shit talking and just trying to make people laugh, there has been many times where people have been like, ouch. And every single time, I'm like, oh, my God. Because it's just so not my intention. But, you know, I'm sure that there's been moments where I've said things that have made people uncomfortable or hurt somebody's feelings, and, you know, it does happen. And, yeah, as you're saying, it's like, we do get that opportunity to grow and evolve once we see, like, oh, that's not how we need to do things. Like, I just finished. Sorry, just a sideline.
[00:23:27] Speaker B: Love this.
[00:23:27] Speaker A: I just finished watching Dream Academy on Netflix, where they're making the K pop group, like, the international K pop group obsessed. This is my endorsement. If you haven't watched it, go watch it.
[00:23:37] Speaker B: I can't wait.
[00:23:38] Speaker A: The dancers on it are beyond, like, the growth that you see in this intensive training program. And Sohei and Nikki and Jay and some other people, like, are training them and are a part of this process, and I. It's so incredible. But then you also, you know, I've done reality television. I've been a professional dancer. And so seeing the production side of things that are sort of, like, fucking with these girls to, like, get them, you know, bring out the drama and, like, toy with people's emotions. Like, they did that so much on. So you think in Canada, yes. And you can't help but, like, really feel for them, too, because all that you want when you're in that position is for somebody to choose you and say, like, you're good enough. And, like.
And, yes, these things that you're so afraid to believe about yourself that you can do it and that you are good enough, I'm going to affirm that for you. And that's all they want. So you'll put up with so many other things. But there is one girl, actually, who was just like, I'm not into this. She's like, they're pitting us against each other, and this is making me sick. And, like, she's, like, a shell of herself by the time she leaves. But I was so proud of her for saying something.
[00:24:43] Speaker B: I can't wait to watch. Thank you for that.
[00:24:45] Speaker A: But I was always that girl on jobs, too. I would speak up a lot. I quit jobs. I was notorious. Not notorious, but within my friend group.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: Well, you were also one of the leaders of Dancers alliance for a very long time. You had stake in that game. You were a leader and advocate for dancers rights. So for you to, for lack of a better phrase, just bend over and take it on set, it was not an option for you.
[00:25:09] Speaker A: Absolutely not.
[00:25:10] Speaker B: Nice. I love that about you. Yeah.
[00:25:12] Speaker A: But I also, I think, you know, my advocacy work for the dance community and, like, sitting on boards at the union and doing so much work with Dancers alliance, it did shift my perception of the industry, and it did lead to me falling out of love with dance, but more so because I was becoming more educated to what is appropriate, what isn't, what is okay, what is not okay to accept. How should you be treated as a professional dancer versus what's not acceptable?
[00:25:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:39] Speaker A: And I think once those lines became really clear for me, then it became.
[00:25:43] Speaker B: Easy to say no and a lot.
[00:25:45] Speaker A: Harder to put up with bullshit. And so I get to answer your question from 20 minutes ago, because I totally sidebar this.
What led to me sort of leaving dance was a bit of that. And then I moved to New York to do the greatest showman, and it was supposed to be a three month contract.
[00:26:06] Speaker B: Double that. It's like a kitchen or bathroom renovation. It's gonna take twice as long.
[00:26:11] Speaker A: But most movie jobs aren't like that. Usually what you're being told is the timeline. Is the timeline.
[00:26:16] Speaker B: I don't know. Not in my experience. Always over. Always over.
[00:26:19] Speaker A: Oh, well, this was like.
[00:26:21] Speaker B: Well, I don't know. Except for, like, drop ins like la la land. That was like, you're getting three days of rehearsal and two shoot days. That is what it is. But, like, also.
[00:26:30] Speaker A: Love that.
[00:26:30] Speaker B: Yeah, love that.
[00:26:31] Speaker A: But it was like, the difference between three month expectation and what was it, actually? You know what I mean?
[00:26:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And your whole life is on hold.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: Sub letting our places.
[00:26:42] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:26:43] Speaker A: And the thing that sort of happened about it, that was. I don't know if we can talk about it, but whatever. It's fine. I doubt anyone.
The thing that was, like, kind of shady about the whole thing was they had ran auditions in New York and didn't find what they were looking for.
[00:26:58] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:59] Speaker A: And so they direct booked a handful of us from Los Angeles and asked.
[00:27:03] Speaker B: You to work as locals?
[00:27:04] Speaker A: Asked us to work as locals. And I was sitting on boards at the union at the time, so I triple checked with everybody. Am I going to be able to file a claim. Am I protected? If I do this, can I go work? And they were like, absolutely.
[00:27:16] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:27:17] Speaker A: Go work as a local, track, everything.
[00:27:20] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:27:20] Speaker A: Submit a claim a week before you guys wrap shooting, and it'll get taken care of. It got taken care of six and a half years later, but.
So it definitely was. Was a journey. But I think, you know, none of us expected the job to go on that long. Yeah.
That's just, you know, it's disrespect and.
[00:27:35] Speaker B: That'S hard mismanagement of the things.
[00:27:39] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:27:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. But in that time, you're also checking this major box, which is huge feature film. You're having fun because of talented cast. It's great people.
[00:27:49] Speaker A: The cast was insane. The only thing that kept me alive, honestly, I went through such a dark depression and developed, like, a debilitating anxiety disorder during that process. That stuck with me for years and that I still sort of dealing with, deal with.
[00:28:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:06] Speaker A: And though that cast of dancers was just so Chef's kiss, such, like a dream to be able to work with so many performers that you love and respect and who are veterans and have so much experience and are just such professionals.
[00:28:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:21] Speaker A: But, yeah, I think it can be sort of disheartening for anybody where it's like you're being sold the idea of one thing, and then when you show up, it's not that, and that can just be, like, really challenging. That being said, you know, I.
Yeah, I was going through a really dark time during that process, and I wasn't the most positive person. But I will say the thing that I give myself credit for through that whole thing was I always was fighting for the dancers as a group.
[00:28:50] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:28:52] Speaker A: I took charge of our claims. I took charge of documentation, communication with the union, and I did it consistently over six years after to make sure that there was some sort of restitution for, you know, the bad behavior of, like, what had happened on the studio.
[00:29:07] Speaker B: Part, people trying to take advantage of y'all.
[00:29:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:11] Speaker B: You are a guardian angel. Thank you for that. And paid the price. Like, some mental health struggles. I know you're a big fan of a twelve step program. I am. How did that show up for you? First in your life? And since then?
[00:29:24] Speaker A: Yeah. So I got sober from drugs and alcohol when I was 19, and I just never would have had a dance career or a life, probably, had I not gotten sober at that time. My impetus for getting sober at 19, though, wasn't because I had thought of myself or viewed myself as having a drinking problem. I started getting into harder drugs when I was around 18, and it just by, you know, after, like, a year, a year and a half, I just felt like so much of my life felt unrecognizable, and I wasn't sort of, like, recognizing parts of myself. And it just freaked me out to the point where I was like, I need to stop everything. So I stopped drinking alcohol as a, you know, as a means to sort of quit doing other things.
[00:30:13] Speaker B: Like, let's just bundle this, all this whole thing together.
[00:30:15] Speaker A: None of it's serving me like, it doesn't matter. So I was sober from, like, 19 to 29 when I did greatest showman, and that's when I relapsed. But I never thought of it even as a relapse at the time because I never thought of myself as somebody who was an alcoholic or had a drinking problem.
So I started drinking during that project. Never, obviously on set, but, like, a lot offset. And from 29, for two years straight, I probably drank every single day and drank a excessively. And, you know, it's. It's, you know, addiction. And it's such a tricky thing because people define things so specifically. And for me, I never exhibited any behaviors that flagged me having a drinking problem to anybody.
[00:31:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:07] Speaker A: So when I decided to get sober from alcohol when I was 31, probably so many people were like, why you don't have a drinking problem?
[00:31:18] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:31:19] Speaker A: And it's funny, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a harder thing to sort of. Because it doesn't always look the same. It's not always like, how it is in a movie or a tv show where it's like, the dad's drunk on the couch and he's covered in bottles. It's not always that.
[00:31:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:31:32] Speaker A: But if you have a compulsion to drink or to continue drinking.
[00:31:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:37] Speaker A: I think that is enough of a reason to sort of look at the behavior.
[00:31:41] Speaker B: I love that philosophy. Yeah, you're speaking to my core. I have investigated my relationship with food and with alcohol several times in my life, to varying degrees. I think the alcohol side I've looked at a little bit less carefully. I toss it up to, like, my family loves to drink. It's like, how we bond. But, like, there have definitely been chapters of my life where I am drinking not with my family alone, by myself on the couch, watching Netflix and calling it, like, normal.
[00:32:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:12] Speaker B: And I think in our society, it.
[00:32:13] Speaker A: Is, in a lot of ways, it is. So it's easy to also, too. I mean, this is the thing, too. Not everybody who drinks a lot has a drinking problem.
You know, I think that, like, having a drinking problem or dependency on alcohol or compulsion with alcohol is a very specific thing. And I think it's only. Only somebody can make that decision for themselves if that's what's happening.
[00:32:36] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:32:36] Speaker A: And that just takes like, a lot of introspection and a lot of honesty with yourself.
[00:32:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:41] Speaker A: But to the point about twelve steps. I never went to a twelve step program for alcohol. So when I got sober again, I'd been sober for five years. I didn't get into twelve steps until seven or eight months ago when I sought it out for disordered eating.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: Whoa, okay. I didn't know that.
[00:32:59] Speaker A: Yeah. For compulsive eating.
[00:33:01] Speaker B: So you are going to oa.
[00:33:02] Speaker A: I go to oa, yeah. Overeaters Anonymous.
[00:33:04] Speaker B: Gillian Schmidt's podcast guests also had incredible things to say about that program. I'm really curious about it because I know I've had disordered eating at several different points in my life. I think most dancers with the relationship to our body in the mirror. How do you not? Yeah, I'm actually very interested to talk to anyone who's made it through totally unscathed in that relationship, relationship of food and body. But I definitely have used food as reward, as punishment, withholding, overindulging, and to be in command of that intersection. I would love to have that feeling. It's one that I find myself policing all the time.
Can you share any tools or any insights that you've gained since then that might help me or anybody listening?
[00:33:53] Speaker A: Honestly, I would say it is truly the most profound form of healing that I've ever sort of encountered. And it has changed my life for the better in so many ways. I think for me, I never. I never would have thought of myself or defined myself as somebody with disordered eating or an eating disorder. I obviously have gone through periods in my life of restrictive eating.
You know, I've purged a handful of times in my life. Like, that's never been my thing. But I think, you know, having an excessive amount of control of what I'm putting in my body and how much I'm exercising was the main part of my professional dance career. And that's like, at the time, like, I was using steroids, I was working out six days a week. I had a personal trainer. I was very restrictive with the food that I was eating, and I knew some of it was unhealthy, but I don't think that I would have classified it at the time as disordered eating because it was very normal around me. All of those behaviors were very normal around me. But with that, I also always struggled with periods of bingeing, because when you.
[00:35:08] Speaker B: Weren'T restricted, you would be.
[00:35:11] Speaker A: Or if I would leave town, if I would ever travel, for some reason, it was like, okay, I'm out of prison. And I would just eat all the things that I'm not allowed to eat, which is mostly sugar. Like, I've just been a sugar addict my whole life. If I, like, look way, way back, my earliest memories are, like, eating excessive amounts of sugary food secretly because I'm not allowed to have it. And it's all self soothing. It's like we're all just sort of, like, any type of disordered. Yeah. Addiction, disordered eating, any type of self harm in that way is just a trauma response to trying to self soothe in some way, and you just don't have the tools to do that.
[00:35:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:49] Speaker A: My therapist had actually recommended I check it out, and it was literally, I had gained a lot of weight post dancing and also, and particularly post, like, pandemic, because I just, you know, my binge eating, like, got really out of control, and I had gained a lot of weight, and there was just so much shame and so much.
I was just devastated. And I think I would say 90% of my brain capacity. My thoughts in my brain through the day were around food. What I'm eating shame around the food I'm eating shame about my body, how my looks have changed, how I'm being perceived by people who knew me when I was, like, a hot dancer, you know?
[00:36:32] Speaker B: So it's a lot of mental real estate.
[00:36:34] Speaker A: It's a lot of mental real estate. So, yeah, when I found the program and went in, my first meeting felt a little weird, and it didn't feel very like my tribe, but there was something that really pulled me to go back, and I went back the next day and immediately just felt, like, so at home in the space. And I committed to the program really quickly and found a sponsor and started working the steps. And not everybody's story is that way. I have very close friends who started program around the same time as I did who haven't had the same experience that I have. So it is just like a blessing. Yeah, it's a blessing that it sort of worked out this way. But I just don't think about food in that way. I don't think about my body all the time. I don't care about how much I weigh. Like, I've lost a significant amount of weight since being in the program, but I could care less. Like, it doesn't. My, I don't feel like my value and my worth is coming from that. And that's a talking about, like, the strong muscle versus the weak muscle. For the whole time that I was dancing and particularly, like, the transformation that I underwent when I moved to Los Angeles and then sort of started working out, started taking steroids, getting more tattoos, doing all of these things that would position me better in the industry.
It was also the same time that Instagram was invented, and that's, we were working on X Factor at the time, season one, and I was, like, one of the first people on Instagram. So, like, people look at my thing now as a director, and they're like, oh, he has so many followers. I was like, you've been doing. Nobody cares about what I'm directing. It's because I used to take my clothes off on Instagram in 2013 or whatever. You know what I mean? But you know, that many years of sort of being hired as, like, the hot guy or whatever your value and your worth comes from, it just becomes completely intertwined together 100%. He threw up a photo of me being hot when I was younger because I referenced it a few times, and I don't want people to watch this and be like, when?
[00:38:32] Speaker B: Wha.
[00:38:34] Speaker A: Bitch, when?
[00:38:34] Speaker B: Shut up.
[00:38:35] Speaker A: Yeah. I'll send you an old headshot, please.
[00:38:38] Speaker B: I would love that.
[00:38:39] Speaker A: And I had also, prior to that, never experienced that. Like, I always wanted so badly to have people be attracted to me or, like, to want to date me or, like. And I just never had that experience until my mid twenties when I changed my body and my Persona, I guess, in a way.
[00:39:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:02] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's hard to sort of separate, like, your value or your worth. When you change things about yourself and then you get so much adoration and attention and money, you get reinforced. I wasn't reinforced. I'm saying, like, for dance stuff.
[00:39:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But where do you think your value comes from now? I mean, you have changed the way you're thinking around food, you've changed the way you're thinking around your body, and you've changed your actual career title from being dancer, which is a visual and very physical form, to director writer, which is a little bit behind the scenes. Are those related at all? And actually, that I'm less interested in. But where do you think value, your value comes from now and then maybe more broadly, where does, like, a human's value come from?
[00:39:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I really am so aware of where my value was coming from when I was a performer that I. I try to clock it now in moments where I am attaching my value to what I'm putting out as a. As a creator.
[00:40:11] Speaker B: I see.
[00:40:11] Speaker A: So, to the work. To the work. So, like, is the music. Did I get a good job? Did, uh, did. Is the music video cool? Do. Are people complimenting my work? Like, I really am clocking that and trying to separate, um, myself from that being my value point.
[00:40:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:30] Speaker A: Versus what I really feel are my value points now are the way I show up in my relationships, um, the way that I show up for my community.
[00:40:41] Speaker B: Also, your taste, which is exquisite in the way you share generously. No, you really. You've helped me in a huge transition of my life. When my ex moved out, came over to the house, and we're like, okay, that, no, this, yes, this, maybe. Have you thought about just moving? What about this? What about this?
[00:40:59] Speaker A: I was like, we can sell it.
[00:41:01] Speaker B: And I.
For some reason, your ability to do that, both severe and compassionate, I think that's a huge value. It's not just like, the. What you are doing, which is the work, but the way that you do it, I think, is where I tie a lot of value, your value to.
[00:41:20] Speaker A: You a lot of the times, too. It's like, I mean, intention versus impact. And I think, for me, I know I've always, no matter what I've ever done, my intentions have been pure or good.
[00:41:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:36] Speaker A: The impact that, you know, sometimes hits, sometimes misses less in the last, I'd say probably six years. But I think, you know, a huge part of that, too, is and a huge blessing that came from struggling with my mental health, going through a really bad depression for many years, medication, therapy, anxiety, all of those sorts of things. It's like, yeah, that was the darkest, hardest time of my life. It was the starting point of the life that I have now because it broke me open, and I become a much softer, more compassionate, empathetic person. So I think I do care a lot about my impact.
I put more value into the impact versus the intention, because before I would, back in the day, there was no filter at all. I'm trying to help, but I would say things that could be so cutting or raw or whatever, and the intention is to help that person, but it wasn't always the impact. And I think, you know, struggling with, like, those sorts of things and becoming a much more sensitive, softer person has shifted a little bit more of, like, that focus onto also the impact while still being honest with people and because.
[00:43:00] Speaker B: I'm compulsively honest and having this sharp, pointed perspective, which I think is what makes you a great director, you're not.
[00:43:08] Speaker A: Gonna be a decision making.
[00:43:09] Speaker B: Yeah. You're not gonna be a great director. If it's wishy washy and if it's always so gentle, what do you think?
[00:43:14] Speaker A: I don't know.
[00:43:14] Speaker B: Everybody should have a voice and this. And, like, I love the way that you lead. I got to be there just for a short time. While you were directing the Jason Mraz video.
[00:43:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Because your mom was in it.
[00:43:23] Speaker B: My mom was in it. Here's a question. What was it like directing my mom and Sue Lawson, who are seventies and have no experience taking direction?
[00:43:31] Speaker A: It was. It's so funny. It's like, it was so sweet and so pure, and I was so happy to get to have them in the video because I love both yours and Meg's mom's so much. But when there's that many moving pieces and there's that much on my plate, all I'm thinking of are, like, all that I can focus on in those moments are if they're missing their mark or if they're fucking up. So in those, like, you're blacked out. It's not like, oh, these are, like, my second moms. It's like, hit your fucking mark, Susan.
[00:44:02] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:44:03] Speaker A: But they did a great job, and.
[00:44:05] Speaker B: We did, and they had a hard. Their track was not easy. Their track was easy.
[00:44:09] Speaker A: They're not professional. They may have birthed a two of the best professional dancers. Professional dancers. They are not. But they did an amazing job, and they didn't mess up any takes. But it is a stressful process.
[00:44:19] Speaker B: Taylor, I deliberately did not wear under eye mascara because I knew I would be crying today.
They did a really great job. And I think, yeah, on that shoot, you had to work so fast, so you're limited to being able to think about, did it work? Did it not? What needs to be changed so that it works?
[00:44:36] Speaker A: Who's ambitious?
[00:44:37] Speaker B: It was a very ambitious thing.
[00:44:38] Speaker A: It's a one dance music video from beginning to end, 50 bodies and probably seven or eight different rooms. So it was totally ambitious. Yeah.
[00:44:46] Speaker B: That's the definition of big appetite. Yeah. I really. I love it, and I think it's delightful. My mom loves it and loves you. I love her. Okay. So speaking of you as a director, I want to talk about. I love you. Bye.
[00:44:58] Speaker A: Oh, sure.
[00:44:58] Speaker B: And I took some notes because I don't want to get it wrong. I want to get your praises right. So just wait for this. It is the winner of best comedy at Holy Shorts film Festival and the winner of the grand jury prize for best narrative short at Sonoma International Film Festival. Congratulations.
[00:45:16] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:45:16] Speaker B: Is there one more?
[00:45:17] Speaker A: No. We were nominated for best comedy.
[00:45:19] Speaker B: Oh, JK.
[00:45:19] Speaker A: At Holly Shorts.
[00:45:20] Speaker B: Oh, sorry.
[00:45:21] Speaker A: But it's fine. We didn't win, but there was only three of us in the category, so it felt like a win anyways. And I was just, like, the other two shorts that were in the category were so amazing. And I think for me, it's like, I don't do it for the awards. Why would I think I'm gonna get any fucking awards? It's my first time.
[00:45:35] Speaker B: It's your first time?
[00:45:36] Speaker A: The fact that I'm getting into, like, amazing festivals and that it's being so well received.
[00:45:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:41] Speaker A: Is.
[00:45:42] Speaker B: That's winning.
[00:45:43] Speaker A: Yeah. That blows my mind. It's winning. Yeah. So that, like, I have no disappointment around any of that kind of stuff.
[00:45:47] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:45:47] Speaker A: The fact that we won, we won our first festival for best live action.
[00:45:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:52] Speaker A: Also blew my mind because the other films that were there, you know, I just were some of my favorite films that I had seen that year.
[00:45:58] Speaker B: Oh, my God. So talk to me about making it. Cause you're obviously charged up, and I hope that you're making. You have plans for something next already.
[00:46:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I have, like, yeah, I have other projects like, that I'm developing and working on. Okay.
[00:46:11] Speaker B: And this one did you. What was the hustle? Like? I'm assuming you were the stylist and the writer and the director and the producer and the, and the, and the.
[00:46:20] Speaker A: I was a lot of ands, but I also. I hired a lot of very talented, capable people to help sort of support the vision. But I think, you know, when I had started directing, I was doing music videos and commercials and branded content stuff, mostly in, like, the skin, fashion, beauty world. And I've always wanted to do narrative, and that's the ultimate goal, but it's that catch 22 where it's like, if you don't have something to show, you've done it, then nobody's ever gonna take a chance on you. Which is why people do short films, so that you can prove that you can write or you can direct or you can be a cinematographer, whatever it is. And so that was really, like, the impetus for making the short was just, you know, oh, hopefully. Hopefully this turns out good, and hopefully I can find reps from it.
[00:47:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:06] Speaker A: You know what I mean?
[00:47:06] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:47:07] Speaker A: And it just, you know, the writing process was really long. I think, again, a lot of my, a lot of my decisions can be fear based. And I think there was just so much fear about stepping into the unknown.
[00:47:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And this debut work needing to be.
[00:47:23] Speaker A: All the things, having to be good. And it's that perfectionist, too. It's like I, you know, I never want to put out anything that's not amazing. But again, it's like, you do sort of have to, like, grow to your taste level, you know? And I will say I'm totally happy with how the film turned out. I think it looks very expensive. It looks amazing. Everybody loves it who's seen it. So I'm so proud of it and happy that I was able to create what I wanted to create with it.
[00:47:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:48] Speaker A: But the initial expectations for it were for on my side were quite low.
[00:47:53] Speaker B: Like, I wasn't thinking about an exercise or.
[00:47:56] Speaker A: No, not do it as an exercise. But I wasn't planning on doing, like, a bunch of film festivals. Yeah, I wasn't planning on being on, like, a full festival circuit for six months.
[00:48:03] Speaker B: Yo.
[00:48:03] Speaker A: But then once I finished the script and I was like, oh, I think it's, like, actually good. And I was getting that feedback from other screenwriters in the industry. Nice that it was really well written. And I was like, okay.
I was like, okay.
Because I also don't like. Writing is also a, like, there's so much discipline with it. It's like, yes, I can call myself a writer and I can write, but there are people who are so much better at it and more capable because they have.
[00:48:28] Speaker B: Are doing it all the time.
[00:48:29] Speaker A: Yeah, discipline. Whereas, like, for me, I see myself as a director first because I love directing and I just feel so good on a set.
[00:48:38] Speaker B: Like running the show state. When I see you running shit, even a shoot, you are in command of all the moving parts.
[00:48:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's fast and it's so easy to make those decisions and. Yeah.
[00:48:48] Speaker B: Oh, my God, you're so fast. When I shoot with you, it's the fastest.
[00:48:51] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:48:51] Speaker B: I remember once, I think it was maybe the first time I had long hair. I still occasionally use this headshot, by the way. Cue headshot. I'll send it to you. I had, like, my whole afternoon blocked out. Cause the first time I got headshots done when I moved to LA, it took like 6 hours. And so I had a whole afternoon blocked out.
[00:49:06] Speaker A: Those old headshots back in the day, honey, I'm like, are we paying by the second? Like, what the.
[00:49:13] Speaker B: Wow. Truly, all day? All day for like four looks. We did at least four looks in like an hour.
[00:49:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:21] Speaker B: With like makeup changes, so makeup changes everything, which we're doing on the side of the street, by the way. But I remember like taking myself on a iPhone photo shoot after that because I had all afternoon to do whatever I wanted.
[00:49:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:33] Speaker B: So I just took pictures of myself looking fabulous for this.
[00:49:36] Speaker A: She's dripping content.
[00:49:38] Speaker B: Where was I going with that? You're a great director. So much fun. Oh, the hustle of it. So. And the hustle continues because you're doing the circuit now, which is fantastic.
[00:49:46] Speaker A: Yeah, it's been amazing. I think also too, it's like I would like anybody who's like a performer who's considering transitioning into something else. The advice that I would give to anybody is just fucking do it. Try like it's. Again, that same thing.
One of my best friends, Ally Panky, who I've known since I was twelve, she's a very successful director. She always says that to me. She just, like, there's this inevitable, like what stops people this between where your skill set is at and where your taste level is and you just have to do it. Even if you're filming stuff on your iPhone, like, if it's something that you have interest in, nobody even needs to see it. But you're going to learn how to direct from those things or you're going to learn how to be a photographer from taking photos. Like, you just have to try and you don't necessarily have to put out all of your work, but if you're not ever like trying to write a script or to direct something or to make something, then you'll never get to do the thing that you really want to do because you're just so fearful that it won't be good enough. And it's like, you will be good enough eventually. Hopefully most people are able to if you keep going.
[00:50:47] Speaker B: I mean, on a long enough timeline. Yeah. So start now. All the more reason to like do it today.
[00:50:52] Speaker A: There's no better time than today. 100%. All of this stuff is like these corny things that you hear all the time on, like those little inspirational quotes.
[00:50:58] Speaker B: And stuff, which I have one right there. Start today. Thank yourself tomorrow. See, shout out. Thanks, George.
[00:51:03] Speaker A: Come on. Corny quote.
[00:51:06] Speaker B: Because they're real. That's the reason why it's a plate. It becomes a thing because there's truth in it.
[00:51:12] Speaker A: There's so much truth in it.
[00:51:14] Speaker B: Thank you for that reminder. I have some heart. Some things that I've been avoiding doing also.
[00:51:19] Speaker A: Me too. It's like, I can. I can come onto a podcast and say all of this stuff, but I also have, like, full paralysis around creativity or choice paralysis sometimes where I just, like, cannot self start, you know?
[00:51:32] Speaker B: Well, thankfully, we don't have to do much all ourselves. I think most of what we do is collaborative anyways. Like, you're not one to call me up and be like, hey, Dana, do you need your head shots done? I'm like, taylor, I need new shots. And then I come over, and then you're like, I have this curtain, and I'm like, where do I have this jacket? And then things roll, and the momentum comes along with that. So part of it is self starting. Part of it is surrounding yourself with people who water your ideas and then not cutting them before anything's grown out of them.
[00:52:03] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:52:04] Speaker B: Like, stop the pruning already. Just let it grow and see what happens. 100%.
[00:52:08] Speaker A: Yeah, that's great.
[00:52:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, are you ready for this? We have a rapid fire round called wrist roll. With it work.
[00:52:14] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:52:14] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:52:15] Speaker A: Let me wet my whistle.
[00:52:16] Speaker B: Starts pretty. Pretty easy. Speaking of wetting your whistle, coffee or tea together? James, decaf dogs or cats?
[00:52:24] Speaker A: Dogs.
[00:52:25] Speaker B: What's your favorite dance move?
[00:52:28] Speaker A: Oh, it's probably. I'm not gonna stand up and do it, but, like, the boom boom, I do it all the time still.
[00:52:36] Speaker B: Wait, did those hands go back or forward?
[00:52:37] Speaker A: Forward. Forward. Tits to the knees and then up. Like, it's. It's still.
[00:52:42] Speaker B: Are the legs in a wide second? Are we on an angle fourth?
[00:52:45] Speaker A: No, it's weirdly. It's. It goes into a 45 degree angle. Knees together. Oh, yeah. I'm like, I can see it. I grew up, and I grew up going to the church. Bobby, aso.
[00:52:56] Speaker B: I can't. I can't. Devout. Devout. Bobby Newberry, what is a move that you would delete? I am so excited to hear your answer to this question.
[00:53:04] Speaker A: A movie?
[00:53:05] Speaker B: And why do I feel like it's locking or locking base?
[00:53:08] Speaker A: No, it's not.
[00:53:10] Speaker B: I watched you. I came into tears once watching you lock because you weren't bad, but you were making fun of it.
[00:53:16] Speaker A: Yeah, like, I can. That's. It's. So we're going to jump to a story about rich in tone after. But if I was to delete any dance move.
[00:53:26] Speaker B: Mm hmm.
[00:53:26] Speaker A: That's so hard, cuz it's more like a full, like, dance style or something like that.
[00:53:30] Speaker B: Well, yeah, get rid of it.
[00:53:31] Speaker A: Like, I feel like I really used to hate boardcore.
[00:53:36] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:53:37] Speaker A: We're like, you're just doing the hardest shit. But you're like, you're not moving your face at all. And it's like, it could be so brilliant. But I'm like, mama, I'm not engaged. Like, what are you giving?
[00:53:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm, like, engaged. I don't like it. It's a thing.
Not only. Do you know what? You know how sometimes you don't like something because you can't do it?
[00:53:56] Speaker A: Uh huh.
[00:53:57] Speaker B: I think that's.
[00:53:58] Speaker A: You wish you could do board court.
[00:53:59] Speaker B: I can't not move my face while I dance. I've gotten this note before. Like, could you do less?
[00:54:03] Speaker A: You go, it's so hard. You can't actually find a new dancer.
[00:54:06] Speaker B: Sort of.
[00:54:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:54:07] Speaker B: I mean, at this point in my career, yeah.
[00:54:08] Speaker A: I mean, that was just different for me. But it's also, I guess it. It's also not a world that I'm in.
[00:54:12] Speaker B: Right.
[00:54:13] Speaker A: You know what I mean? Like, I'm not in concert dance or dance competition world.
[00:54:16] Speaker B: A place where you need to look uninterested in what you're doing.
Okay, great.
[00:54:23] Speaker A: What's the rich and tale story?
[00:54:24] Speaker B: Oh, God. Yeah.
[00:54:26] Speaker A: Oh, no. Just.
It was probably for me, like, well, it wasn't probably. It was the biggest job that I had ever booked as a dancer, and it was. And it was a major shift for me in my perception of myself in the industry and in my dance career.
[00:54:42] Speaker B: From being hot to being a person who's, like, really fucking good for thinking.
[00:54:45] Speaker A: That I was only getting hired for jobs and also hearing from other people, like, in the dance community that I was only working because of that.
[00:54:52] Speaker B: Uh huh.
[00:54:53] Speaker A: And then booking what I thought was a Madonna job. But what was Michael Jackson for the x skate promo and the hologram performance?
[00:55:05] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:55:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:06] Speaker B: Whoa.
[00:55:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:07] Speaker B: Okay, so what does that have to do with locking?
[00:55:10] Speaker A: So. So it was like, it was this cr. It was this crazy because it was rich in tone and Jamie King, who icons. Icons. And for me, it just felt like that would never happen because it wasn't. I was dancing for, like, pop stars and, like, you know, doing, like, hip hop, jazz funk mix. It wasn't like, fundamentalist hip hop. Yes, yes. And I'm also gay and, you know, very, very comfortable with myself being gay. And so I wasn't in those, like, Chris Brown rehearsals.
[00:55:41] Speaker B: Yeah, that's not your world.
[00:55:42] Speaker A: And purposely, like, a lot of the spaces, I was like, I'm nothing.
[00:55:44] Speaker B: I'm not going to that audition.
[00:55:46] Speaker A: I'm not going. I got asked once if I would want to go on tour with Chris Brown. I said, absolutely. Not, that's not for.
[00:55:51] Speaker B: That's.
[00:55:51] Speaker A: That is just not a fit for me. I'm like, what am I bringing to the table? I was like, you guys will hate it.
But. So we go through this audition process. We're doing, like, footwork. I don't know, it's like. But it's some sort of, like, joking or. It was like all this, like, crazy shit I never heard of or seen. But I, you know, I was a. I was so good at fake. I could fake anything. I can't pop, I can't lock, I can't wave, I can't do anything. I can fake any of those things just fine for a job. Am I gonna go compete? No, but am I gonna be able to believably pull it off on stage? Sure. So we go to the audition. The height cutoff at the time was 510. And I'm 6161 and a half. And I get a call back. And then we come back the next day and they brought in a bunch of guys who were over 6ft. Oh, no, over 6ft.
[00:56:43] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:56:43] Speaker A: And I was like, oh, my God. And I felt good about the audition. I could tell that they were sort of, like, vibing with me. And so when I ended up booking the job and then they revealed what it was, I was like, holy shit, like, what is going on?
Whatever. And so just, like, honored to be in that space. And then immediately, first rehearsal, one by one. What's your name and what's your style? What fundamentals in hip hop are you trained in?
And it's like, it's fucking, like, you're literally like, I wish I could remember everybody on the job.
[00:57:18] Speaker B: That's such a nightmare.
[00:57:20] Speaker A: I feel it was like punch, like goofy heifer, I think was probably, I don't know, like, it was like there was some ogs.
[00:57:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:57:28] Speaker A: And then it's like, I train him, I train him. Popping, locking, waving, tutting, blah, blah, blah. Breaking all this stuff. And it's like, line by line by line by line. And I go, my name is Taylor James. I am trained in commercial dance and I can fake any style you want me to. What am I supposed to say here?
[00:57:49] Speaker B: No, that's when you really have to come. Honest.
[00:57:51] Speaker A: Oh, I was in that room, bricking.
[00:57:54] Speaker B: It in any room, honestly. That is when you really.
[00:57:56] Speaker A: Matt Aylward and I did that job together.
[00:57:58] Speaker B: I love that.
[00:57:59] Speaker A: And he was. He saved my life because we also too, like, Matt is way more of a hip hop dancer than I am.
[00:58:08] Speaker B: Well, he's been exposed and trained like, everybody's trained. Yeah.
[00:58:12] Speaker A: So it's like, in terms of, like, remembering counts and formations and details.
[00:58:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:58:17] Speaker A: That's where we were excelling.
[00:58:18] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:58:19] Speaker A: Was like those details. Like, I mean, obviously Hef is like one of the best dancers on the planet. So just like I. You're leveling up. Just trying to be beside somebody like that. Me waving and popping beside heifer.
I love that. Yeah. It was iconic. Oh, thank you for that. It was the first time ever in my dance career that I felt that I was actually a good dancer because rich and tone would never have booked me because they like my look in the initial job that we booked, which wasn't even supposed to be a hologram performance. It was supposed to be an interactive virtual reality thing.
[00:58:50] Speaker B: Yes, it is.
[00:58:50] Speaker A: But obviously technology wasn't catching up with the idea.
But they never, you know, we were, I'm pretty sure that we were also, like, fully covered in paint and shit. It didn't matter what I looked like.
[00:59:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:59:02] Speaker A: So it was the first time that I felt really validated and hired for skill. Hired for skill. And from, I would say, like the hardest working, hardest choreographers. Yeah, that, like, it's a no bullshit thing. And I worked with them for years after that. Like, they would hire me for jobs and, and I always felt like such a random person included in that because everybody, it was such a boys club. Like, it was like all of the bro I as hip hop dancers and then me and sometimes Wiley, which also. Iconic.
[00:59:37] Speaker B: Iconic.
[00:59:37] Speaker A: Iconic. I remember we were doing that usher performance for the Billboard awards for Xscape, for the Michael album. We were promoting the song and it was Miley and Miley. Wiley and I were Miley and Miley was there. Miley and Wiley, she probably was, honestly.
And Wiley and I, I'm pretty sure we were the only gay ones in the rehearsal. And what I love for me, when I was in those spaces of, like, when I would be working with, like, hip hop things, yes. I would tone it down and I would, you know, I would be like, my bro. Your version of myself.
[01:00:10] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:00:10] Speaker A: Wiley doesn't do that. And I, and it, and it really was such a powerful thing for me to see that in this space, which is so intimidating with very intimidating choreographers.
Wiley's like, girl, move that fucking thing, bitch.
[01:00:25] Speaker B: Like, not doing any tone matching at all.
[01:00:28] Speaker A: Doesn't care. And I was just like, an option. Yeah, it doesn't matter if you don't have to. You know what I mean? Like, you're not at risk for being yourself.
[01:00:37] Speaker B: That's beautiful. This is the longest wrist roll with it I've ever done it. It's wonderful. It's so worth it. I don't know if this will take us on a tangent. It might. What's the last song you belted out loud?
[01:00:48] Speaker A: It probably, honestly, because I was watching dream Academy, and then we were re watching it with friends last night.
[01:00:54] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:00:54] Speaker A: It was probably, like Ariana Grande or du Lipa or something.
[01:00:59] Speaker B: Gorgeous pop. We love it. First paid dance job. Go. What was it?
[01:01:03] Speaker A: Well, my first paid dance job, I was living in Edmonton, Alberta, and I. These choreographers came in from Vancouver. You know, all of them, I'm sure. And we're setting, like, this dance thing that was being performed at, like, a mall fashion show. It felt like I was like. It felt like we were auditioning for the fucking oscars. Like, it felt like that big of a deal because nothing was coming through Edmonton. We also didn't have, like, a hip hop dance scene, really. So, like, these cool Vancouver choreographers came through, and I ended up booking this job, actually. I don't know if it was paid, so maybe this doesn't count, but it was, like, my first sort of, like.
[01:01:35] Speaker B: Dance job, first gig.
[01:01:37] Speaker A: And I just. And I remember we were dancing to Justin Timberlake.
[01:01:39] Speaker B: Uh huh.
[01:01:40] Speaker A: It was like Justin Timberlake and Snoop Dogg were probably, like, two of the songs. They're just such nostalgic songs for me.
[01:01:44] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:01:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:01:45] Speaker B: Okay. If you got to have a superpower, what would it be?
[01:01:48] Speaker A: If you could choose fly. Yeah, but fly. But with. With being able to control, like, the atmosphere outside of my body because it's so cold up there. Like, anytime you.
[01:01:58] Speaker B: Under these conditions. Yeah.
[01:01:59] Speaker A: If you're, like, flying on an airplane, you're up there and you're like, oh, it's so gorgeous. But then you look at the temperature on the little monitor, and it's like fucking Siberia. I'm like, well, I couldn't enjoy that.
[01:02:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:02:07] Speaker A: So I want to be able to, like, control that. And that would also be great, too, because if I'm flying.
[01:02:11] Speaker B: Huh.
[01:02:13] Speaker A: In the way that I'm flying, I can also go underwater. Right? Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.
[01:02:18] Speaker B: Definitely.
[01:02:19] Speaker A: I've thought about it. It's not the first time I've been asked this question.
[01:02:23] Speaker B: I need to get more original. Okay. Here's a more original version of that same question. What is your actual superpower? What are you, like, super, super good at?
[01:02:32] Speaker A: Oh, I guess.
I guess from, like, feedback alone. My superpower is I have.
I have a way of seeing things very clearly how they could be more beautiful or better or improved on. Like, I think being able to understand what can or can't work. And look, there's, like, you know, there's a million ways to do different things.
[01:03:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:03:01] Speaker A: It's just my opinion. But I do think, like, that is like, a skill set that's specific to that is.
[01:03:07] Speaker B: I would agree with that. Yeah, I've seen it in action. Okay. What are the words that move you? A poem, a quote, a guiding principle, or just the actual words that you feel really motivated by?
[01:03:18] Speaker A: Well, Megan Lawson, actually, this was probably 15 years ago. Ten years ago. Like, it's so more than ten.
She used to say, the squeaky wheel gets the oil, and it has stuck with me so much, and I say it to people all the time because there's nothing more true than, like, if you don't ask, you won't get it. You'll never get it. If you're too afraid to ask. Yeah.
[01:03:41] Speaker B: If you're too afraid to squeak.
[01:03:43] Speaker A: Yeah. I think also right now, too, what I've been saying to a lot of people is like, like, opportunity and success, and everything that you're sort of seeking and dreaming of is on the other side of being cringe.
If you're so afraid of being cringe, you're blocking yourself from so many blessings.
[01:04:04] Speaker B: You will not get to have what's on the other side of it. I cosign on that. Yeah. I believe that everyone is worthy of that success. All the stuff that's on the other side. And I also believe that everybody is worthy of failing. And so if you think of this as being, like, fair game to win and fair game, everybody who's winning can lose. Everybody who's not even playing, you can also lose. Everybody can lose.
[01:04:29] Speaker A: Well, and everybody can win society today, honey, it's like, we love build somebody up to here and then tear them down. Like, it's just, you know, it's a part of that process sport for us. But we'll just, we're gonna lay back a little bit. We won't be like a list celebrities getting dragged on TikTok.
[01:04:43] Speaker B: No, no, we're not a part of it. Well, Taylor James, thank you so much for bringing your taste and the gap between where your taste is and where you are today, because you are nothing if not absolutely where you are today. Thank you for bringing it. I really love you. I love talking to you. I love learning from you. I love that you're my friend, and I love that you love my space. It is moving the curtains are moving right now.
[01:05:09] Speaker A: It's giving audience participation.
[01:05:10] Speaker B: It is.
[01:05:10] Speaker A: The crowd goes, well, it's giving that energy of just, just being like, oh, we're on a late night, honey. No, it's just a bunch of mylar.
[01:05:16] Speaker B: Strings in my air conditioning. Right?
[01:05:17] Speaker A: It's giving that.
[01:05:18] Speaker B: Yeah, it's giving that.
[01:05:19] Speaker A: No, thanks for having me. This is awesome.
[01:05:20] Speaker B: Thank you again. We're leaving it there we're leaving it.
[01:05:24] Speaker A: There we're leaving it there.
[01:05:26] Speaker B: Smash the likes hit subscribe leave a reviewer rating ship it, ship it to your friends all over the world and of course, keep it very funky. Bye.
This podcast was produced by me with the help of many big, big love to our executive assistant and editor, Riley Higgins. Our communications manager is Ori Vajadares. Our music is by Max Winnie, logo and brand design by Breetz, thumbnails and marketing by Fiona Small. You can make your tax deductible donations towards that move me. Thanks to our fiscal sponsor, the dance resource center, and also many thanks to you. I'm so glad you're here. And if you're digging the pod, please share it. Leave a review and rating. And if you want to coach with me and the many marvelous members of the words that move me community, visit wordsthatmoveme.com dot. If you're simply curious to know more about me and the work I do outside of this podcast, visit thedanawilson.com dot.
