138. Body and Business with Jillian Schmitz

Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to words that move me, the podcast where movers and shakers, like you get the information and inspiration. You need to navigate your creative career with clarity and confidence. I am your host, Dana Wilson. And I move people. I am all about the tools and techniques that empower tomorrow's leaders to make the work of their dreams and live a full life while doing it. So whether you're new to the game or transitioning to your next echelon of greatness, you're in the right place. Hello? Hello, my friend, man. <laugh> dang it. I have done it again. I must say I've got a good one for you today. Tears are pulling up in my eyes. As I think about this episode. It is gold. Pat's self on the back. <laugh> this episode is gold for many reasons. Number one, because my guest Jillian Schmitz is gold. She is wonderful. Speaker 0 00:01:04 She's great. She's fabulous. She is so giving so vulnerable. And so, so, so strong. Um, this also this episode is also great. However, because what Julian and I dig into is basically every relationship that we've ever talked about on the podcast, except for in one episode, relationship to dance, relationship, to choreography, relationship, to social media, relationship to money. And we go deep on our relationship to our bodies, which is something that I don't talk about very much on the podcast. And I really think I should, because this is a podcast for dancers and choreographers and yes, also other artist types, but for dancers and choreographers specifically, our bodies are the tools that we work with and our relationship to them is so important. Uh, a little warning here, there's quite a bit of adult language in this episode. Uh, so maybe, uh, headphones, it <laugh>, um, there's definitely some swearing, but I would also like to flag this episode for being potentially distressing to people, processing trauma around disordered eating or eating disorders. Speaker 0 00:02:22 Julian and I are talking about that slippery slope of weight loss in an art form that centers around the body and how it looks. We also talk about what happens when you think that there's something wrong with you and what you do when you want to stop. We talk about embracing being done only to begin again, and we are going in y'all I cannot wait. This episode is such a gift. I'm so excited to share it with you, but first wins. Oh man. <laugh> today I am celebrating getting my 20, 22 choreography and movement coaching real out there into the world. I just clicked public post on my YouTube. Is that what I clicked? What do I click public? I mean, it's been up for like a day, but I've just, I was just waiting to find something wrong with it. <laugh> um, turns out this is version six. Speaker 0 00:03:20 I think version six is the final version. So I made it public hit, publish it's out there in the world. And yo <laugh>, I've gotta say, I'm glad that that is done released. I, I don't like spending too too much time on those things reels that is like past work, like focusing on past work feels like, um, a tedious grind. That's maybe doesn't feel very fruitful or even potentially fruitful in the moment. Sometimes it simply feels like dwelling on the past. Um, but it is true that the best reward for great work is more work. Isn't that funny though? The best reward for great work is not a great real <laugh> it's more work. Um, I'll probably do a podcast episode on that someday. Actually, I always edit my own reels. Um, I don't like to advertise that very much <laugh> and I certainly don't don't want to become the person that edits reels, but I do edit reels for the, a few people that are very close to me. I love doing it for other people. For me, it's a little bit less fun because you know, I'm the subject. Uh, but man, yeah, I, I, I think working on reels that work is something very interesting to talk about. Um, so I'll do that episode. How about that? Working on reels that work there it's halfway written already. <laugh> uh, okay. That's my win today. Reel is out there now you go, what's going well in your world. Tell me everything as long as it is 30 seconds. Speaker 1 00:05:08 Yay. Speaker 0 00:05:11 Congratulations, my friend. I'm so glad you're winning. Keep it up. Uh, and, and if you found yourself at a loss for wins today, if I may put a future win on the books for you, I am hosting a free career coaching call that is Monday, September 5th, 12:00 PM. Pacific. That will be 3:00 PM Eastern and other math in between. Um, really, really excited about these. I've done a couple free career coaching calls in the past. Always get great turnout and some really awesome community support. If you've never been to one of these free calls, I strongly recommend you mark your calendars right now for September 5th, 12:00 PM, Pacific 3:00 PM, Eastern. Um, super stoked about it. If you missed it. Um, if you are listening to this podcast after September 5th, 2022 fear not, I will be doing these sort of things often, at least a couple times a year. So visit words that move me.com and click on events to get a look at our upcoming events. That is where I will post all about free coaching calls, intensives workshops, blabbity blue. All right. That's enough for wins. Let's keep it moving. I'm so ready. I'm ready. We're just gonna jump right into it. Y'all enjoy this conversation with the marvelous, the one and only Jillian Schmitz. Speaker 0 00:06:47 <laugh> Jillian Schmitz. Hello, my friend. Welcome to the podcast. Speaker 2 00:06:52 Hi, Dana. Crap goes wild. This is very exciting. Speaker 0 00:06:57 And this is so exciting. I have to tell you, I think the world of you, number one, I also think the world of your work and also turns out we have a lot in common. I have a feeling that you and I could talk <laugh> for a very, very, very long time. So I've actually crafted us a little agenda, a little, some, some things that I want to be sure we touch on. Like, I would be upset if we talked for an hour and didn't talk about these things. So I've got like a secret like wishlist. Um, but I can't wait to see where this conversation goes. First place. It's going straight over to you to introduce yourself. Tell us what you want us to know about you. Speaker 2 00:07:37 Okay. Well, I wanna fulfill your wish, wish list now that I know that you have one <laugh> so you might have to push me off topics. But, um, my name is Jillian Schmitz. I consider myself an artist. My medium is dance, specifically burlesque I'm also an author and a teacher. Um, and I'm, I'm just an artist, man. Speaker 0 00:07:56 <laugh> yes, man. I love this man and woman and all human beings. You speak to, I mean, I think your nature as a teacher, at least I'll speak to that because it's top of mind, I got to take your class on my birthday recently. Um, and your nature was a nurturer, but came with the hard facts and yes, information. I think you're a wonderful blend of artist type and also a wonderful blend of teacher type. So I'm so excited to have you on the podcast, cuz I think my listeners and I have so much to learn, so, um, excited. Um, okay. Uh, so, well I guess while we're talking, teaching dance, choreography things, I would love to start by asking you, what do you think your relationship is to dance right now to choreography right now and two teaching right now? Speaker 2 00:08:58 That's a lot. Okay. Speaker 0 00:08:59 We're we're just gonna be talking about relationships all day long. Basically. Speaker 2 00:09:03 I love it. Okay. Okay. So, well I wanna go way back just one small thing. I am so humbled that, um, first of all, you even know who I am. Um, because I there's, I there's so many people in the dance world and, and so many amazing people in the dance world and this is true. That's true. I know who you are and I've known who you are for a very long time. And I have seen your work and kept my eye on you. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and I, I remember one time you were, you were doing a job, you were in rehearsal at the PAAC at the annex and I saw you and I was like, oh, I have to tell her that I saw her work on PGA during the shutdown and I loved her piece. So I came up to you and I was like, I just loved your piece on Pania and you were like, it wasn't me. I was like, no, it was you you're like, no, I think you meet someone else. I'm like, no, I mean you and then you were like, oh, oh yes, my piece. Yes. Okay. And I was just like, okay, this girl's kinda like me. I was Speaker 0 00:09:49 Like, Speaker 2 00:09:49 Deflect, Speaker 0 00:09:50 Deflect the compliment. It can Speaker 2 00:09:51 Be me. Oh, it can't be me so funny. So that's so humbling because, uh, I just always assumed that, um, maybe I, someone wouldn't know me and there's no reason to know. Speaker 0 00:10:03 Me's the same assumption. Isn't that wild. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's stay off topic for a second. Because that day at the performing arts center, I was rehearsing for my first ever gig with Margarite Dereks, who I have known and respected and loved for many, many moons. Um, but this is how much I know you. My friend, when I started watching marvelous, miss Maisel, um, late, I was definitely late to the game because I don't love a trend. Like I still have not seen squid game. I still have not watched breaking bad. I have not seen the whatever throne thing. Yeah. It's the, it's the pressure. And so I don't do the trends, but during the lockdown Speaker 2 00:10:45 You had no Speaker 0 00:10:45 Option. It's like, I want to laugh. <laugh> and I had no, I had watched everything else. Speaker 2 00:10:50 You no option. <laugh> Speaker 0 00:10:51 No, I I'm kidding. I saw that show out because I knew Margaret's work was all over it. And when you came on the screen, I was like, Jillian Schmitz. I said first and last name and my husband was like, you know, this person <laugh> um, I got so excited. I got so excited to see you in a light that I thought was not just glowing, but like truly sparkled. So we'll talk about mazel insect, cuz I wanna just like shower you with praise. Um, but let's back up relationship to dance. Speaker 2 00:11:24 Yes. Speaker 0 00:11:24 Relationship to choreography. And you can talk about freestyle in there too, cuz I know freestyle is really important to you in your process, in your work. Um, so relationships to movement things. We'll just put it that way. Speaker 2 00:11:36 Okay. Okay. Well my relationship to dance has always been ever evolving and I have to say it's, it's like a true relationship's ups and downs and um, a bit of resentment. <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative> I do. I do feel like, um, I've GI I, I feel like dancers, we give so much and the older you get, the more that makes a lot of sense. Mm-hmm <affirmative> you really give your time, which I think is the most valuable asset. Um, a person has you give your body, which is probably the second biggest asset someone might have <laugh> and it, and, and, and at the end of the day, like besides the fleeting moment of you in that moment of like glory or pain or excitement or praise or, you know, getting the job or not getting Speaker 0 00:12:18 Whatever Speaker 2 00:12:18 It's yeah. Besides that moment, it's not tangible. So it's, it's kind of an elusive thing to me. And so, uh, sometimes I've had like a pretty negative relationship with dance of like I've given you everything you've given me nothing, but like the job I had six months ago or whatever that Speaker 0 00:12:36 Is, but where are you now? Where are you now? Speaker 2 00:12:38 Yes. Yes. Well, and so now I've, I've, it's something I can't shake and I think there's people who relate to that too. Like if I could quit dance, I would man, I would mm-hmm <affirmative> but it's a habit. I can't, I can't kick. Um, I've kicked a lot of habits and that's one habit I can't kick. And so, uh, you know, since I can't kick that habit because it still is just in my nature to hear music and wanna move. And that's my favorite way of expression still. Um, I have to then just have to do all the hard work to keep my body in a place where I can still do it. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and that's hard too because you know, nobody wants to do PT and nobody wants to like admit that they're getting older. They can't jump as high or they can't do the things, you know, it's, Speaker 0 00:13:21 It's hard. Yo <laugh> time is relentless. I mean dance also, but dance can be gentle. I think time is sneaky, not gentle and I'm experiencing it now. I, however, on a weird tip, love PT. I love it so much. I love, um, something targeted and really specific because I love economy. I love feeling like I'm not wasting my time and with PT and I trust my therapists and I know that the work they're giving me is targeted specifically to my needs. Yes. And I feel a specific target in my body. Yeah. Right now I'm talking about my medial glutes because knee pain <laugh>, um, which you have experienced. And I wanna hear about that too. God. Okay. Where were we? Right. Okay. So relationship is, is complicated. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:14:12 It's complicated Speaker 0 00:14:13 Bound to this thing. Like you Speaker 2 00:14:15 Are. Yeah. I can't say on any given day, I love it. Like I I'm gonna do it. Speaker 0 00:14:20 I cannot Speaker 2 00:14:21 Do it. I can't do it. But like I gotta be honest. Like I'm not one of those people. That's like, I live, breathe, eat dance. I do. But it's not always really pleasant. Mm-hmm <affirmative> but that's it that's, I can't shake it until I can. That's where I'm at with it. And most of the time I really like it. Yeah. And most of the time in the moment, you know, I'm really, really happy to be able to do it. And, and uh, uh, you know, I just, I start, I remember dancing around, you know, before dance classes in my parents' living room. I remember dancing outside mm-hmm <affirmative> the Bengals eternal flame was very, um, very, uh, inspiring to me. I really felt a lot of, oh, Speaker 0 00:14:58 I see that. I see that after you Speaker 2 00:15:00 Get it out with that song and you Speaker 0 00:15:02 Know, is it is burning. It is, it is Speaker 2 00:15:05 ACE, an eternal flame. And I needed everybody to watch me. I needed my parents to watch me. They couldn't watch me enough. You know, I needed my neighbors to see me. I needed my friends to dance with me. I needed them to dance too. It was, it was this, you know, unyielding, desired urge need to dance. So that's still there. <laugh> Speaker 0 00:15:23 Has that, has that translated into teaching and choreography is that same urge Speaker 2 00:15:28 There. So I love teaching. Um, I don't care for choreography coming up with choreography is sometimes hard. I've done it enough now because you teach you how you usually have to come up with a combination. So Speaker 0 00:15:41 I've, if I could teach other people shit forever, I would Speaker 2 00:15:44 You're Speaker 0 00:15:44 Right. Don't think, don't think. I don't think about it. Speaker 2 00:15:47 Don't think. I don't think about I'm like maybe I should call them and ask if I could teach their combination. Um, you know, but it is because I just, I, I don't love the process of coming up with choreography. I can't even say that I really love, um, choreographic things as much as I love expressing myself to music. And obviously that is through a series of movements that could be considered choreography. Um, so I, uh, don't have a huge, strong desire when it comes to choreography. Mm-hmm <affirmative> uh, do I like the process of communicating choreography? Yes. So yes, Speaker 0 00:16:17 Me Speaker 2 00:16:17 Too. Yeah. The many times Speaker 0 00:16:19 Do I like being in charge? Do I like pre-production? Do I like planning? Do I like yeah. Um, teaching? Yeah. Do I like directing on set and like being ingrained in that creation? Absolutely. Do I like making up steps? Hell to the, nah, <laugh> hell, it's such a funny thing. Like that one bit for me is also painful. It takes a long time. Yeah. Especially if I am left unattended, um, if I'm alone, it's the pits, uh, love working with teams and assistance, but yeah, it sounds, I, I think this is one of our common, uh, common grounds. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:16:52 And same if I'm with someone, I find that my creative ideas are better or they make more sense or have more direction or something like that. So that's my relationship to all that. This is starting off very, um, I feel a Debbie downer. <laugh> Speaker 0 00:17:06 No Speaker 2 00:17:07 Like this is a tear. I have a terrible relationship with dance. I don't like choreography. What else can we talk about? Well, Speaker 0 00:17:12 Let me tell you why, why I think this is important because I think the message that you have to love this. You have to be willing to put your body in front of a large moving vehicle. You have to eat, sleep, breathe, sweat, dance. You have to be insane about dance in order to make it mm-hmm <affirmative> I'm like, eh, yeah, no, I don't really subscribe to that. Yeah. And I think you're a great example of someone who's sane and has other interests and is, um, a balanced person and will probably find longevity because of that, because I think there's when you eat sleep, breathe and are absolutely 360 degrees obsessed with dance. Mm-hmm <affirmative> number one, you risk not being able to stand out because I believe it is our other interests and our other qualities that in a room full of dancers makes us interesting to look at. Yes. Um, but also, whoa, I'm not gonna say you, can't like, I know that's definitely one way to do it, but you're missing out on a whole lot of the life pie when dance is all you eat <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:18:26 Yeah. And, and I've done that thing. I did that thing. I did the obsessed, the 24 7, the E breeze sleep. Speaker 0 00:18:32 How'd it go? How did, how it turn out? Speaker 2 00:18:34 <laugh> you know, I, yeah, to that turnout, I did get a little bit, I got like a half a center meter. More turnout. No, but so Speaker 0 00:18:43 You really commit to it. You will, you will see change. Speaker 2 00:18:45 Yes. Yes. Um, I, I gotta say for me, because I have an obsessive personality, it's easy for me to fixate. So that's like, it feels like I'm doing something. It feels purposeful when I'm obsessed with something mm-hmm <affirmative> um, it keeps my mind off of, uh, a bunch of other things that I don't wanna think about. So in that sense, it, it served that purpose and it, and I was obsessed when I was training, when I came out here and I was training mm-hmm <affirmative>. So it served a purpose in my dancing to gimme a really good strong foundation things I didn't get before I got here. Right. Right. But then I got burnt out. Speaker 0 00:19:15 Right. Speaker 2 00:19:15 And I didn't wanna dance at all. Speaker 0 00:19:17 And then I thought Speaker 2 00:19:18 I wasted everything. Oh, I gave up, Speaker 0 00:19:21 You fully stopped. Speaker 2 00:19:23 Yeah. I was like, I was like driving around LA in my car, like crying. Cause I was like, I moved out here. This was the only thing I, I thought I wanted to do now. I, I hate it. I don't even wanna go to any class. I don't wanna do any class. I don't wanna do anything. And, and, and this is like a transition when I was like done training, but I was like dipping my feet in the professional world, which is like very arduous. I was, I was like, not getting, I, I like there was a ton of auditions at the time. I was just getting cut. Cut. Cut. Cut. Cut. Cut. Cut. I wasn't barely making it through first cuts. Maybe. Cut. Cut, cut, cut. Cut. And, um, it was like very demoralizing mm-hmm <affirmative> um, I'm super rejection sensitive. Um, so that was not helpful. Speaker 2 00:19:58 And then I was in a, in a, in a community of people that kind of, it didn't seem to affect the same way. Like people seemed to take rejection better than me, or it was perceived that they did, people were kind of like had this Lada attitude, like, oh, just take an audition, like a class that was like impossible for me because my anxiety going to auditions was so immense. I was so distracted. Um, it, it meant so much to me. I couldn't quite be that light about it. And so I, I, and this is like a reoccurring theme in my life. I just thought everybody else was doing life better than me. I just thought like this, and this is like a reoccurring theme for me. And probably a lot of things I'll hopefully, maybe bring up today talking is that it's this reoccurring, there's something wrong with me. Speaker 2 00:20:39 Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, there's something wrong with me. And that's like a very reoccurring theme that kind of travels everywhere. And what I've realized later in life, which is through lots of life experience and exploration and finding other things and doing all those things is that it wasn't necessarily that there's anything wrong with me. It's that the system that I was in wasn't made for me and not that every system needs to be made for me. But if something isn't made for you, like it, piece of clothing is not made for you. Mm-hmm <affirmative> like if it was made for someone else and you're trying to put it on, you're a little less critical then if you're like, this should be able to fit me. It seems a little crazy. If you're putting on someone else's clothes that were made just for them, it doesn't fit you just, right. So there is that to be discovered, but, um, I don't even know where that, where that started, where, where it should go from here. But, um, as far as the question you originally gave Speaker 0 00:21:35 I'm right in the passenger seat with you, I don't, I, wherever you wanna go is great with me, IM loving this. Um, uh, I asked what did you do when you quit? Um, oh, yes. What happened when you, when you found out that outfit didn't fit? Speaker 2 00:21:49 Yeah. So I I'm driving around LA, like I was in between places too. It's like one of those moments where just everything in your life kind of sucks. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and you didn't really have any direction. You felt kind of failure and everything. And my mom was like, you can come back home. And I was like, fuck, no, I'm not coming back home. Like, I am not going back home. Like I know for certain that's not where I need to be. Um, back in, you know, Minnesota where it came from. So I just was driving around and just kind of in a very weird, um, Speaker 2 00:22:14 Not mentally healthy place. And I, in one of these, just driving around, trying to pass time and figure things out. Um, I got a call to do like a direct book job for, um, for E plus, which I don't know if people are familiar, but that was Doug Johnson when he first was kind of starting out. And it was, uh, a choreographer that I knew that I had been, um, uh, introduced to through one of my mentors. And they were calling me to do a direct book gig. Now you'd think be giving a gig on a plate, like here's this gig and is like a fairly simple gig. And I was new, so it didn't matter. Anyways, I just wanted gig. And it was like decent money for what was happening. And I wanted money. I didn't have money. So I was like, this is amazing, but I still didn't even wanna do the gig, but I needed the money. Speaker 2 00:22:55 So I was like, okay, I'll do it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I did it. And then things just kind of started lining up. Now, I'm not saying there weren't long periods of time of indecision and not having enough work and being worried about finances or having side hustles side jobs. But it did kind of, for some reason I had gotten to that place of complete, like I'm done. I, I I'm relinquishing all of my control in this moment and like, I'm just gonna let go of it. And like, I, I don't, I don't want it anymore. That then that thing could come to me. And that is also reoccurring theme in my life is anything you chase runs from you <laugh> Speaker 0 00:23:32 And I chase Speaker 2 00:23:33 Everything. I chase anything I want with such vigor. Um, and all I see when I say that statement in my head is me chasing cats. Cuz if you know me, I love cats. I have lots of cats. I'm a very cat lady. And, and you can't chase cats. Like also like you can't chase dogs early, but cats really like if you try to hurt a cat, it's a very demoralizing, uh, activity <laugh>. And so every time I, I, you know, I see myself do this over and over again in my life, especially looking back and not really recognizing it is anything you chase runs from you and anything that I've really wanted, if I'm chasing it, if I'm actively chasing it from me, mm-hmm <affirmative>, it becomes that more unattainable. So to your point, is that the only way to get something is being obsessed 24 7, the only way to get something in my experience, it is actually the opposite for me now was I prepared when opportunity knocks, because I had spent that time being obsessed and trained. Yes mm-hmm <affirmative> and I did need that. And that was helpful. And like, there is, uh, dancers have to have a certain level of accomplishment to get any job. Now you must, Speaker 0 00:24:34 Must be capable. You must be capable. You must be as a baseline Speaker 2 00:24:37 Baseline. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:24:38 <laugh> Speaker 2 00:24:39 And then, you know, how much more or less and whatever style you wanna do, that's on, you know, you to do. But so there, those that's like a hybrid and I love that you see that in my teaching because I am constantly trying to be really nurturing because for me, um, a stringent, very strict, uh, training module. I survived it, but I didn't thrive in it. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and I still, I don't survive. I, I can survive high, intense, stressful situations and work environments, but I don't thrive in them and I don't enjoy it. And I don't think it has to be that way. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and I would like to find a way for it not to be in class and teaching. I like to do a really comfortable, really comfortable environment, especially if it's someone's first time taking my class, I'm not gonna give, uh, some heavy corrections. Speaker 2 00:25:25 I'm not gonna single them out unless it's positive. I want them to have the freedom to kind of like do their own thing. And then I'm hyper, hyper aware. I'm hyper aware, facial expressions, I'm hyper aware of what body, uh, what, what people's physicality is. I'm I can, I feel like I can feel if someone's what their, what their feelings are coming in the day mm-hmm <affirmative> I feel like I can feel if they feel overwhelmed. I feel like I can sense what's going on. I can even, I feel like I can sense if someone's too hot. Mm-hmm <affirmative> I feel like a lot of those things are heightened and for me, uh, whether I'm hallucinating that or not, or be Speaker 0 00:25:59 Self important, I Don know, Speaker 2 00:26:01 But I'm, I'm just saying like, it could be a possibility. Speaker 0 00:26:06 Yeah. I, I, I think it's real. I sensed it. I felt it. And I think it talk about being self important. I'm gonna try to tell you where I think that comes from and that's that you are a natural, or at least you very much embrace freestyle. Yes. And to Excel in that domain being sensitive and also being aggressive. Speaker 2 00:26:32 Yes. Speaker 0 00:26:33 And being at the control center of each is such an asset. I think think the, the best freestylers are the best because they take cues from the room, especially people in a battle scenario are taking cues from their opponent. They understand the judges, they understand the song, they understand the DJ, they understand the, the energy in the room. You're taking all the cues from the room. And as a freestyler, as a, or as a improvisational performer, I think you do that. Whether you are focusing on it or not. I think you do that all the time. So the, the fact that you would bring that strength with you into class doesn't shock me. Um, and I think that's, I think that teaching is one of the most creative things you can do, especially teaching a creative discipline, um, because you have to be creative about how you share it, how you explain it, how you make offerings, how you make corrections. Um, so yeah, I think your sensitivity in that realm probably comes from your sensitivity as a performer, working with live audiences, um, which, which I would love to talk about. I don't know what it was that got you into burlesque and performing live were most of your gigs that way. Were you more, uh, in those early days, was it more TV? What, what, what were you doing and how did you get into burlesque Speaker 2 00:27:52 In the early days? It was, well, I couldn't get hired a lot. You know, I was really green in the performance realm. I had a lot of like, uh, foundation, a really good work ethic, but I didn't have a lot of, uh, uh, perform. I just had lost a lot of my performance in training. Mm-hmm <affirmative> I had gotten so hyper fixated on the details and the technique that I lost a lot of, yeah. Any kind of like real natural performance that I might have had. So I had to kind of like re curate that. And I was at the pussycat dolls, dolls audition in, uh, very long time ago. And <laugh>, it Speaker 0 00:28:25 Was when they, when they became the pussycat dolls, like when Robin took them together. Not Speaker 2 00:28:30 That old, that Viper room, pussycat dolls, like, like, like, uh, Speaker 0 00:28:33 Oh, okay. Well that's even before what I was thinking of, but okay. Speaker 2 00:28:36 Yes. Yes. That's where they start, you know, Robin Anton in the Viper room. That whole thing. But no, no. When they became like the, Speaker 0 00:28:42 The, the group. Yes. Speaker 2 00:28:43 So that Speaker 0 00:28:44 Audition yes. Speaker 2 00:28:46 At the dome, at the millennium dome. Okay. So I was at that audition. Didn't have a shot in hell. Let's be honest. I was going, because that's what my mentors had told me to do. You gotta go to every audition, you gotta try whatever you're doing. Speaker 0 00:28:56 The thing Speaker 2 00:28:56 I really cute outfit loved my outfit was, you know, happy to be there, make, you know, make an effort, whatever. So I got caught, of course, yes. And I'm leaving, you know, this is not new for me. And I'm leaving and I'm gathering my stuff. And Carrie Asiah master of, um, choreographers, carnival is walking around, passing out flyers. Now, if you know, Carrie, you know that back in the day, he was always passing out flyers. He would go to every audition and pass out flyers. You'd go to every dance event and pass out flyers. He was always passing out flyers. So he was there passing out flyers and he saw me and he was like, oh, you did really great. Are you staying? You gotta be staying right. You're staying to the second hall. I was like, oh Speaker 0 00:29:33 Gosh, you do a really good carnival carry. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:29:35 <laugh> yeah. And he's, you know, he's, he's passing out flyers. He's like, that was great. You know, you gotta stay. Right. And I'm like, no, I got cut. And he was like, oh, I can't believe it. It, well, do you wanna come dance from, for carnival I'm I'm doing, I'm doing a piece in my carnival and it's, you know, I need you tap. And I'm like, yeah, I tap. He's like, okay, you raspberry, jammed. I raspberry jammed. Stop it right now. And I raspberry jammed in every choreographer's carnival for a very long time, a few years, a few years I did. I did. And, and while I was raspberry jamming, he started his ladies and lace Burle show at the Holly at the Highlands nightclub, which was right when Hollywood and Highland was constructed. So this was early two thousands. They were just like, they had just constructed it. Speaker 2 00:30:13 One of the first things. And along, along with like the Victoria secret and the, you know, blah, blah, blah, was this Highlands nightclub on like level four or five. And he was doing a burlesque show there every Friday. And so myself and a bunch of other girls, he had put us together and I had never done a burlesque show before. I didn't even really know what burlesque was. I kind of had a good idea of maybe what it was. Um, there wasn't a lot of Google happening at the time. <laugh> there, wasn't like a lot of like, let's see what this is and type it in. Um, and so we started rehearsing every Tuesday, Thursday, and we would do the show on Friday and it was like an early dinner type show. So people were at tables and it slowly morphed into like a later night club show. Speaker 2 00:30:49 But in this show we had choreographed numbers and everybody did a solo. Now the solos were freestyle and he was like, burlesque, burlesque dancers, freestyle. They freestyle. That's what they do. And I was like, okay, okay. That's what they do. So my song that I think he had given me, I don't know if I chose it or gave it to me, but it was boots are made for walking by Nancy's Nancy Sinatra. And Nancy was, that's a hilarious song to give me because I definitely didn't feel like my boots were walking. Like I did not feel empowered by this, this scenario. And I, I, I didn't know what to do. And so I started kind of choreographing it, but then I didn't really, like, that was even harder for me because I really, you know, those were two very difficult things for me, cause I just wasn't used to doing them. And so I kind of like, I like would, would just go rogue halfway through whatever I thought I was choreographing. And I ended up, I feel like I was just like ponying a lot. Like do well, probably. Speaker 0 00:31:37 Yeah. If you're listening to that song, you're, you're doing pony. What Speaker 2 00:31:41 Is a good choice for a signature step and in freestyle talk about don't signature. You can feel it. Yeah. You wanna do it right now. Yes. And so it's not a terrible signature step choice, but I really didn't know what I was doing. And I think I like, you know, had like one thing to take off and I just, it, it was an evolution and, and I did it every Friday and because I did it every Friday, I had to do it. And every Friday I got a little better and every Friday I got a little more confident and then I started developing different acts. You know, I'm gonna do this act with the telephone and I'm Alicia keys, you know, how come you don't call me? And like, you know, different things. I got started getting really creative with it. And it became something that I did that I felt good about. Speaker 2 00:32:20 And then people started calling me to do jobs, doing that. Cause they were like, oh, this girl, you could just call her. She doesn't need a rehearsal. She doesn't need a choregrapher. She's just gonna come and do a performance. And you know, Les was kind of like, you know, 40 deuce had been happening mm-hmm <affirmative>, it was kind of that part was over. But then there was, you know, other bur blessings that were happening. So people kind of knew what that was. And so I kind of became known as a person to call if you want to have a performer come and just freestyle mm-hmm <affirmative> and in, in a sexy girl type way, you know, mm-hmm, <affirmative> like in a, in a specific vibe. And so that kind of started happening. And during that time, you know, I was like doing some industry stuff. I was assisting a lot. Mm-hmm <affirmative> I assisted a lot before I was dancing on TV and film a lot. Who'd Speaker 0 00:33:05 You work with? Often? Speaker 2 00:33:06 I worked with Ramon Del Barrio. Sometimes he goes by Raymond Del Barrio. Um, I was assisting, uh, Scott Grossman, uh, Joan Malone, Michelle Elkin, um, uh, um, Michael Chambers, Lance McDonald. Um, um, and then later, later as I started dancing, like getting more, um, like more street cred, what I call street cred, dance jobs. Um, then, you know, Speaker 0 00:33:37 I was screen cred, Speaker 2 00:33:39 <laugh> green cred. Yep. Team more TV and film jobs. Um, like as a dancer than I assisted more people, I had opportunities to assist more greet Dereks on some of her projects, um, you know, uh, Kati Jean on her Kylie tour. And so I got to do, um, a bit more of that and I'm sure I'm missing some people in that mix, but those are the ones that come to mind that I did a lot, a lot, a lot of work for. Cool. Um, and so that was, you know, I was one of those assistants too, who like really wanted to dance as well, assistant mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I was like kind of bummed out sometimes when Speaker 0 00:34:13 I was another assistant, another common place for us. Yeah. You Speaker 2 00:34:16 Know, and I didn't wanna be that assistant that was bitter. So I tried really much to like, not be that way with dancers around the dancers, like just really keep that whole deal to myself. And I think I was successful in that if I wasn't, um, apologies people. Um, and I did, I got my fill of dancing and I, I rarely assist nowadays. Um, although right now I'm assisting two people. So look at you guys. I wasn't doing it for a while and now I'm back at it a little bit. But so Speaker 0 00:34:43 When it, when it rains, it pours, it does feel like even though it's middle of the summer, it does feel like a rain type of moment. Yes. Then I'm glad about it. Speaker 2 00:34:51 Yeah. And that's not the only time that story of like, you know, it's very common, you know, burnout starts usually with a small resentment mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and, and so if you can track your burnout, if you're feeling burned out in any one thing, you can usually track it to a small resentment and then those resentments are unresolved and they compile until it's almost like an explosion. And then it's like a complete apathy or like a, a disrupt, you know, mm-hmm <affirmative> so usually if you're feeling burnt out, it's not necessarily that you're doing too much of one thing, although it could be, it's more likely that there's some kind of a resentment that's formed around that thing. Like either you should be somewhere else by now, something's been withheld. You feel something's been withheld from you. Someone's done you dirty, like, you know, something, you know, mm-hmm, <affirmative> usually, that's kind of what it starts as, and then it compiles and, and compiles and compiles. But that's what I found for myself anyways. Speaker 0 00:35:41 Solid. I love that. Thank you for rounding that back to burnout. Cause I do think it's something that in this, uh, uh, information age where we are scrolling and perpetually, uh, inundated by the images, the content, the pressure to deliver that all the time, it must be insane. And if you, if you actually do every day, all day, do all the things I'm, I'm quite sure burnout is for real, especially if there's a resentment or an imbalance there. Um, Speaker 2 00:36:15 Yeah. It, and that's one, one advantage I had in my training was that I didn't have access to social media cuz I hadn't been invented yet. So I didn't have time in my downtime. I didn't get to look and measure myself up against endless human beings who I thought were doing better, more things, more successful, all those things. I didn't even, I couldn't even judge myself against my peers that I had gone to high school with. We just didn't have any of those insights into each other, unless you were physically calling someone up and they were being honest with you. Speaker 0 00:36:43 Right. Was it outta sight out of mind? Were you not thinking about it cuz you weren't looking at it? Speaker 2 00:36:48 Yes. Yes. And I, I don't have good advice for people about social media these days because like I'm the terrible example of it because I ate way too much social media today. I guarantee you, I already ate too much of it. Mm-hmm <affirmative> I feel like like gluttonous, I feel like full and gross and that's what happens because I can't, you know, I'm I'm I'm I'm it brings me just as much dopamine and dopamine in my brain and serotonin to like keep scrolling as everybody else. And I'm I'm completely, oh, Speaker 0 00:37:15 Is, is very well engineered to yeah. Keep your eyeballs in the one place and it's, and it is not your fault. It is not our fault, but we do have the control of our thumbs and hands and can put the phone down anytime. Um, but yeah, that, that dopamine hit is real. Um, I, I had a kind of, um, miraculous shift with that in not miraculous, but like an unintentional shift with social media in 2017. Question mark, maybe 18. Can't remember now. Um, my sister who is older by three years, um, has two babies. She had a difficult pregnancy with them, both, um, wound up with terrible postpartum depression on antidepressants, gained a lot of weight and was unable to lose it. And in general just was having a really, a really hard time. And it was at some point during 2017, I'm pretty sure. Um, were there was this switch and she really changed. Um, started losing a lot of weight. Eventually went off antidepressants, went on to lose 50 pounds and like regained her life. And I was like, yo, what are you doing? And can I do it too? And she was like, yeah, yeah, you gotta listen to this podcast. It's called weight loss for busy physicians. And I was like, AEs, please. <laugh>. So I unofficially became a busy physician. Speaker 2 00:38:45 I gotta say that title is not, you know, I was waiting for a really exciting title, right? Like, oh, I need to know that. I hear that. And I was like, you don't my brain said you don't qualify moving, Speaker 0 00:38:54 But wait, but wait, you're a business woman. And you know, the value of having a strong niche. Yes. And it turns out the content for busy physicians is exactly the same as content for busy dancers. Amazing. In fact, we actually have way more in common with physicians than somebody with a normal nine to five, I think unusual work hours. Yeah. Um, high stakes environments. Although certainly I'm not about to argue that dance saves lives. Although I did have my sister on the podcast once and we argued about this. I was like, I don't think dance saves lives lives and not in the way that you do anyways. She's like, she's a physician she's like was chief of the ER and all this cool stuff. Yeah. And I was like, I shuffle ball change for money and like to make people Speaker 2 00:39:42 Smile, well, dance saves lives, but it doesn't lose lives. Physicians can lose Speaker 0 00:39:45 Lives and that's a lot, that's there go, that's a good distinguishing beat. We'll we'll put a pin in that. You can go back and listen to my episode with my sister I'll tag I'll, uh, link to it in the show notes. But anyways, what this podcast was about is feeling your feelings mm-hmm <affirmative> instead of buffering them away. Yeah. Specifically on this podcast with food, but, and I didn't even realize I had a problem with that, but I absolutely did. I ate when things went well, I ate when things did not go well, I ate when I was bored and I ate when I was hungry, I was eating all the time. And so when I started listening to this podcast and I lost 12 pounds, I didn't even realize was there, although I have never, not until recently loved my body or been kind to it. Speaker 0 00:40:36 Um, so that podcast changed the way I interacted with food and my body and social media, cuz that was one of my buffers. And when I started feeling my shit, I didn't need it anymore. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so that was like, that was hugely pivotal for me. So if I had advice for the information age or the social media age, it would be, feel your feelings. Don't try to get them from an app. And certainly if, if you think the only place you can express them is an app. There's a challenge there as well. Mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. Feel your feelings before you, um, touch your phone that I think would be my advice. Um, but maybe that is a gentle that's advice. Maybe that is a gentle segue though, because I think you have, I mean, you have a complex relationship with dance, which I love that we got to dig into, but I wanna hear about your relationship with your body. Yeah. It's something that you and I have kind of scratched the surface of, but yeah, it's something passionate to you. It's not something I talk about a lot on the podcast and I really think I should, because this is a podcast for dancers and choreographers. Our bodies are literally the tools that we work with, um, and our relationships to them as such are so important. Um, what would you say is your relationship with your body now and what has it been? Speaker 2 00:41:59 Hmm, loaded question. Good question. So I can't start here without tracking way back, um, because it won't make sense. So, so if I say right now, my relationship to my body is tolerance. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that I have to track that way back and maybe tell you why. So 12, 13, that's when I became hyper aware of how I wanted to look versus how I thought I might look and how I wanted to keep from not looking a certain way. So, um, there was a lot of, uh, a lot of noise in my mind about being very obsessed with what I looked like, how I wanted to look and how to avoid looking a way that was different than what I wanted. And I, I remember one of my babysitters actually, like when I was even before that age, talking about her thighs being large, like her, her thighs being big and this woman was small. Speaker 2 00:42:51 Like by all means it was already. And I remember being so confused by being like, I don't understand why she's saying that because I don't see what she sees, but the minute I, that was in my head like that she, this woman I li you know, liked hanging out with that was so cool. Could hate something about her body so much. She brought it up that much and that it was so wrong. I really was like, well, there's something up with that. And I need to really be aware of that. And I need to make sure that that doesn't happen to me. And, you know, in addition to being very, very inundated with hyper heroine chic modeling of the nineties, that was kind of my influencing. Um, I was really into that of obviously being a dancer, seeing ballet type bodies that I very much wanted to look like, because I thought that's how you could be a good dancer, was to be that type of a body type. Speaker 2 00:43:35 That's what was acceptable. That's what was needed. Um, so that was also a hyper fixation. And, um, I grew up in a household where I didn't have a lot of control. I didn't have a lot of control when the environment is chaotic. I didn't have a lot of personal control. I didn't have a lot of personal anonymity. I didn't have a lot of personal agency. So food and body becomes a very, uh, a breeding ground, a perfect opportunity to find all of my own control. I'm gonna control what I do. I'm gonna control what I eat. I'm gonna control how much energy I expel. I'm gonna control what I do in my room alone. I'm gonna control all of these things. And it became, um, a coping mechanism that I can only say when so far beyond a coping mechanism and became what I would call a confidant and a best friend, but a really toxic best friend. Speaker 2 00:44:24 And then as I got older merged into, I could not tell the difference between that and me. I, I couldn't separate the two. So when I say that, I say that the, um, the, the monologue in my brain that says the most insane things, things that, um, I can only relate closest to if you've seen the show physical, um, it's in its second season, John Hamilton's aray for Kelly Allen. Big good fan. Yes. Kelly, Allen's the assistant or associate. I, uh, I'm not sure the official title of that as well. And that show when I watched it, I said, oh my God, that's my, that's it that's, that's it right there. That's it they're do, they're doing it. They're doing it for everybody to see. And that is so that's the closest thing I can relate to what my mind says. And the thing is, is that it's said in my own voice. Speaker 2 00:45:14 So I cannot tell the difference between myself and what I would call a disordered eating or an eating disorder voice. So that's really tricky. That's really tricky because those are voices you hear, but they're in your own voice and it can be really confusing because you cannot. And, and when you get in that deep, you can't always decipher. So I did that for years and years. I remember in high school having a very, you know, a dramatic day and trying to throw up in the bathroom and it didn't work for me. So I didn't go down that route. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, but the feeling to do it, the desire to do it, even now, sometimes if I eat too much, the desire to do that, mm-hmm <affirmative>, although that was never my main, um, my main, uh, uh, uh, coping mechanism is still there. Um, my favorite thing to do was not eat all day long, see how long I could go without eating and then eat a very large satisfying meal and then feel very guilty that I didn't eat the most healthy option that I could. Speaker 2 00:46:12 And there were also times where I was only eating 800 calories, and that was a salad and a Starbucks situation at the end of the day mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, there were times where I was able to get my body down to, you know, around a hundred and some pounds. And then there were times that, you know, I would relax on the whole situation and come to one 40, and I'm only saying numbers. So you can see the sliding, this, I'm not saying that to, uh, for anybody to judge or measure themselves up against mm-hmm <affirmative> weight is actually like a very, uh, it's the furthest thing from health actually. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, but I'm just saying, my I'll tell you right now, my body, I should not be a hundred, some pounds mm-hmm <affirmative>. I should be much more than that. So anytime that I've gotten down to around a hundred pounds is extremely, um, uh, malnourished for my body type and my height and what I, what, you know, my muscle mass mm-hmm <affirmative>. Speaker 2 00:47:02 So there was many times that I did that and that I did that for a really long time. And, um, I never thought that I, uh, uh, that I had an issue or a problem. Um, I, I, I never went to recovery. Like I never went to an in person, person, you know, like recovery, where you get checked in and you have to like be force fed. I never lost my period. I never, my hair didn't fall out. Except that one time I seemed to have a lot more breakage, but I didn't have like bald spots. I didn't, you know, have the little fuzzy hair that grew. I didn't, you know, all the things that typical anorexia would be, you know, defined as, because I was still eating one meal or I was still doing this, or I was still doing that. But as you go down the road of recovery in disordered eating or eating disorders, and the reason I say both of 'em is because for the longest time, I could not even say eating disorder. Speaker 2 00:47:49 I had to say disordered eating, because I felt so strongly that I didn't earn my seat in that category, that I wasn't sick enough to get help. Um, so, or that I wasn't sick enough to qualify for that. So that was, you know, uh, leading up to, you know, I had a, I, I had a knee injury and, um, I decided, oh, I, I need to like, you know, eat really well and really consistent to like, try to get my knee in the best possible place for my knee surgery and this knee injury. And I even felt a little bit like, um, maybe, uh, uh, I caused from my kind of abuse of not listening to my body, not feeding it well, not tending to it that I might have caused this injury a little bit. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so I was like, I'm gonna do it. Speaker 2 00:48:38 I'm gonna really, you know, now it matters. Now it really matters. I'm gonna, I'm gonna eat the right. I'm gonna do the things that I'm gonna eat that. And I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. And for me, that was like, oh, wow, like, you're really, you are out of control. Like when it really counts this whole time, you thought it just didn't count. Like it wasn't a big enough deal. And when it really counts, you still can't do it. You're outta control. And my boyfriend had said to me, at one point, cuz I was on another one of my diets that I've made up in my head that I thought I needed to be on to attain certain results, which was like very orthorexia. If you're not familiar with the term, that is an obsession with organic or, um, natural and healthy foods. Speaker 2 00:49:17 And it can also developing to, um, an eating disorder. Uh, and so I was in that ortho, REIC kind of spiral of like, I'm gonna do this, this and this. And I was making my boyfriend know, has a lot of background in, in, um, at dance therapy, physical therapy, training, uh, nutrition. Uh, I was like, you're gonna help me. You're gonna put me on this diet and you're gonna da, da, da. And he was like, okay. Yeah. Well, this is what you're gonna do. You're gonna have this many calories a day. I was like, okay, well, if I'm gonna do that, I could cut that in half and do that. And that'll be faster. He's like, no, you can't do that. And I was like, why not? I know how I'll get what I need. I can do that. I can be really sneaky about it. Speaker 2 00:49:51 And he's like, no, uh, you can't do that cuz you have a eating disorder. And we had been together for many, many years and that was the first time that he had said something like that to me. And that I had that kind of validation in that moment <laugh> of like, oh, oh, oh. And then it was like, okay, I'm outta control. I cannot control this anymore. And um, that's when I started going to therapy, um, I, you know, started going into 12 step programs. 1 12, 12 step led me to another 12 step, which led me to another 12 step. And um, I'm still today in 12 steps all the time. I'm still in therapy today. And those are the things that have been life changing for me. Like so life changing and I wish I would've done it so much sooner and I wish I would've had those tools younger. Speaker 2 00:50:45 Um, so where I am today, like how many years, I wanna say four or five years into some kind of recovery, um, where I have like what I would call a sobriety in, in eating and food and things I can get to tolerance. And on some days I can get to almost love or maybe like, but most days if I can get to tolerance, that's a win. And I say tolerance. And I say that for people because the body positivity movement right now, which I'm so happy about, I'm so happy about the body positivity and the body inclusivity, but here's the only problem with it. For someone like me and I get that. If you see me, you may be like, what are you complaining about? You have the body type that some people might da da da, da, because it's not in the body. And it's not in the food eating disorders live in the mind. And mm-hmm, <affirmative> so many people have them who don't look like they're sick, they're really sick. And, um, so with the body positivity movement, the loving the body and the, just love your body and you gotta love your body. And it's important to love your body and love your body. If you don't feel that way. And if you can't get there, it triggers shame. Speaker 0 00:51:54 Right. And, and if you think that's the way, yes. That's how you have to be. Otherwise you are to bring it back wrong yes. Or broken, or something's the matter with you, Speaker 2 00:52:03 Something wrong with you. Yeah. So for me, when I hear this, like, love your body. And it's like, I love when people talk about loving their bodies. I love when they say they want to love their body. I love that for me, it is really hard to get to love mm-hmm <affirmative>, but I can get to tolerance most days and that's as good for me. And that's, so that's why I just say that because I do feel like sometimes the, uh, the, the need for everyone to feel good about themselves is so strong that it borderlines anxiety in this way that then triggers shame and ashamed spiral, which is counterproductive to that type of movement. Speaker 0 00:52:41 Totally. Um, when I listen to this, I will be rocked to my core. I can tell my I'm like, I'm tearing up because this is real freaking talk real time that many people, even in the body positivity moment, aren't saying. Yeah. So thank you for saying it. Um, I think that in addition to, uh, learning, to feel my feelings, um, when I started listening to weight loss for busy physicians, <laugh>, uh, the other kind of fundamental principle to that, uh, school of thought. But it's also a school of coaching. The woman that hosts the podcast is a life and weight loss coach. Um, my sister later certified, I became certified as well. Anyways, the one of the other core principles to that work is the notion of life as 50 50. Um, we will experience the human range of emotions, kind of like a bell curve. Speaker 0 00:53:41 There will be a few, you know, tail end, really, really shit ones. And at the other tail, there's some really, really great moments. Most of it will be somewhere in between, but even with a body that is a healthy weight for its, you know, height, mass, muscle, mass, whatever your life will be, 50 50. So when you're thinking that weighing a certain number of pounds will equal happiness, and then it doesn't, you feel like something's really, really wrong. Again, you mentioned this is like an issue of the mind, not of the pounds on the scale. And so for me, realizing that life would be 50 50, whether I ate that thing or not, or whether I punished myself for my body weight or not was kind of this liberating thing that was like, whoa, oh, the, the number of pounds that read on the scale is that is not related to my happiness. Speaker 0 00:54:39 Mm-hmm <affirmative>, I will be happy and sad regardless of the number that I see. Okay. How much do I have control over? What do I have control over mm-hmm <affirmative> and let's start with that. <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative> um, I do think though, what you mentioned about, or, or food, or I think food being the one, one place, especially that a young person can demonstrate control mm-hmm <affirmative> is a very real thing. And I think because of that, a lot of young people, um, develop eating habits that they don't kick for a long time, whether they be overeating or undereating or using food as punishment, or mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you know, lose using food for something other than, uh, nourishment. And I wish it were more normalized to get training around that relationship and to have tools to, um, you know, manage that. Speaker 2 00:55:35 Yes. Speaker 0 00:55:35 And I just don't see a lot of Speaker 2 00:55:37 That. It's not, and, and food in the us, it seems like our culture is, if you're overweight, you have a problem you should die in exercise and that's it. Right. So right. Speaker 0 00:55:47 But also eat with your friends, go out and drink. Yes. Like it also normalizes that. Right. Speaker 2 00:55:51 Right. And, and, and it doesn't actually look at the barometer of issues that anyone can have from being in a 12 step program for eating disorders, which if anyone's listening is interested, it's typically called OA, which is Overeaters anonymous. Now I'm not necessarily an overeater or a binge eater. Mm-hmm <affirmative> it can I, my behavior can go there. Um, but that's not my, uh, main, uh, cope. My main Coke is restricting food, but it's an overarching term for all dysfunction. We just, if you're weird with food, if you're eating too much, if you're not eating enough, if you're withholding, if you're throwing up, if you are only eating certain things, if you think food is toxic, if you mm-hmm <affirmative> are snacking all day long, 24 7, if you are, you know, if you're all of it, all of it plays mm-hmm <affirmative> and sugar addicts, all of it. Speaker 2 00:56:37 And when you, when I've gone into these rooms, I've been constantly surprised by how people who may seem like they have very large bodies, could be, um, anorexic and people who are very, what you would see as they outside were like that person's not eating enough, is eating more calories than everyone in the room put together. So mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it's really, really, uh, mind blowing to see how, what people look like is not what they're experiencing. And it's also not a good indicator of their health. So some, some people that have complemented me at my finnest didn't know how unhealthy I was being. And when I was Speaker 0 00:57:13 You look great, Speaker 2 00:57:14 You look amazing. Oh my God, everything looks so good on you. All, you look incredible. You look so snatched, like all those things. And it's like, and I love that. Like, I loved that because I'm like, yeah, I've fucking worked hard for this in the way that was like crazy. But then also it was like just five more pounds. I couldn't even be happy there. I just need five more pounds. Oh. Imagine if they think I look good. Now, imagine if I did another 10, another five, another whatever. And so it's it to your point of happiness. I was never happy when I was at the, when I thought I was getting to my goal weight because I still wasn't attaining whatever I wanted. I still wasn't happy because at the end of the day, like you said, it isn't that it, that kind of happiness doesn't come from that. And if it does, it's very short, it's gonna be, you know, a minuscule amount of time. And then you're back to it because it's not about any of that. It's about not dealing with the things that you're feeling it's not dealing with. Whatever's really going on. Like, oh, this is very stressful. I'm very unhappy in this area, but this is what I can't control. So let me focus on that. And, and if I, this is what I really wanna fixate on, because I'm so anxious about these other things or whatever. Right. Speaker 0 00:58:21 These are all the things I can't control. So let me control this one thing. Speaker 2 00:58:24 Yes. Yeah, Speaker 0 00:58:26 Yeah. Speaker 0 00:58:29 There's a lot to look at there. And I've, I remember feeling envious of people in the past who don't think about food, the way that I do, or as often as I do mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and I don't know if, if that's nature or nurture or at one point, I even believed that I must have starved to death in a past life, which is hysterical. Cause I don't believe in past lives, but something that compelling mm-hmm <affirmative> helped me to explain why food was always on my mind. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and I think that the truth of the matter is a little bit like, uh, a little bit monkey brain, like dopamine sugar, food feels good. It's a natural pleasure of our human existence in order to keep the human race alive. Eating is pleasurable mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so we do it, but it's also, you know, there's the nature and the nurture part. Speaker 0 00:59:21 But I remember being envious of people who like would just stop eating when, when they were full, like there was still food on the plate and I'd be like, wait, aren't you gonna, like, what are you gonna do about that? Yeah. Um, and the feeling of have to finish, have to go fast mm-hmm <affirmative> um, like becoming more aware of my actual emotions while I ate, or while I sat down to eat was a huge game changer for me. Um, and helped me to be more present during those moments, which culturally again were like, that's when you're social, that's when you're romantic, that's when you're all of these eating moments, but I like would not be present during those moments. Cuz all I was thinking about was the centerpiece of what was going on at that time. Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> so I found freedom around food because I started feeling my feelings mm-hmm <affirmative> which sometimes felt like a prison mm-hmm <affirmative> like sometimes felt really, really awful. Yeah. But sometimes it wasn't that bad. Sometimes it was straight up boredom, Jillian. Yeah. Which doesn't even feel as bad as like subbing my toe or dancing on point for a freaking hour <laugh> and I would do those things all the time. Right, Speaker 2 01:00:34 Right, Speaker 0 01:00:34 Right. Like we, the pain that we endured as dancers. Yes. But, but yet I couldn't be bored. I had to put something in my mouth. Yes. Like once I found out how totally manageable most of my emotions are. Yeah. There are still a couple that really get me. Um, rejection is one of 'em mm-hmm <affirmative> so I'm glad that you brought that up, but um, most of it is not that bad. So when I, when I go feel it, feel it first is kind, kind of became a mantra for me. Um, Speaker 2 01:01:02 That's a good reminder. I am constantly trying to avoid feeling any feelings, even though that's what I am supposed to be doing in all of my recovery, I've come a long way with it, but I get to those feelings and for some reason it's I feel like it's gonna last forever. And I feel so intolerant in that moment. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that I can't quite, I can't imagine that it could not be this forever and it never is. It passes. Right. Speaker 0 01:01:31 It passes, but you can't, but you can't see that other side of it. Speaker 2 01:01:35 No. And usually, yeah. And usually if you go, if you're in a safe environment, situation appropriate, not by appropriate. I mean like, you know, sometimes we can't have all the feelings in the moment on the job when the camera's right here. Right, right. Unless it's that type of a scene, but it's usually not. So it's like not always okay. Or off, you know, like to have the feeling right there in that moment, we have to find a time and a place that's safe to have it. And when you have that time, when you schedule that moment, really let yourself have it because it does shorten that intolerable amount of time. Speaker 0 01:02:06 Totally. And then you have evidence that you can do it. Yeah. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, that's huge. Well, thank you so much for sharing your relationship with your body and your relationship with food and your resources, your, your, your way that you're thinking about it. Um, I think will offer a lot of people freedom in the same way that I found freedom when I became aware that <laugh>, I'm more like a busy physician than I'm not. Speaker 2 01:02:36 Yeah. And I think people should try it all. If anything I've said, or you've said resonates with someone, if you have that, oh my God, them too moment. Mm-hmm <affirmative> like check out all the things. You're not gonna lose anything by showing up to, uh, an OA meeting and just listening. You're not gonna lose anything by, you know, finding a therapist and talking to them. You're not gonna lose anything by, uh, you know, listening to this great podcast that you're mentioning. Like you only have something to gain or eh, you waste a little bit of time, but like, let's be honest. You were gonna be on social media anyways. And like we are Speaker 0 01:03:09 Right. Let's talk about wasting time. What does your time actually go? What is wasted? <laugh> oh my goodness. Um, well, I, I know that we're like kind of pushing time limit here, but I do wanna talk about something else really important. I suppose it's also like on the subject of control and doing things right. Or being right or being wrong. Um, I, I, I assumed because my eye just goes to you when you're on stage or when you're dancing. But I assumed that we had pretty similar tastes in terms of like value of performer mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, but I was kind of interested. I did a little prep for this episode and I found an interview that you did in 2022 I'll link to it. It's something about shoutout LA, do you know what I talking about? Yes, yes. Okay. I'm gonna link to it in the, in this episode because it was great. Speaker 0 01:03:55 Um, but I did not know that you have such strong feelings about artists as independent businesses. Yes. And you are such an advocate for dancers learning the money language. Yeah. Yeah. And so I wondered if you would maybe have a couple remarks or inspiring ideas about how you became bilingual in terms of managing your money or are becoming right. Yeah. We're always learning. No, I am. Yeah. As, as you, as you. And I know, and most of my listeners, especially if they were here during money March, I do every month, March on the podcast, we have finance theme. Yes. Um, and what we discussed this year is that you're the, the rules and laws around income and what's deductible change every year. Yeah. So you might think you're, you know, money literate, but you have, you have to stay in school. Yeah. You gotta keep reading. Yeah. Um, so I'll, I'll yield the floor. What are, what are you Speaker 2 01:04:50 Yeah. As to go? Yeah. Um, I did not grow up in a household that discussed finances. I didn't grow up in a household who that taught me how to budget or taught me how to invest. Didn't teach me how to do taxes. Didn't teach me how to pay bills. I witnessed my mom paying bills. Um, I witnessed my parents talking. Speaker 0 01:05:08 I've seen taxes, but I don't know what Speaker 2 01:05:11 Happened. I didn't know how it happened, you know, like Uhhuh, like, and I really mean it. I, I didn't know that, that like, you know, old school paying bills back in the day, you would like write in the amount and you'd write check, and then you'd take off that little bottom tab and then you'd put it in the envelope and you'd send it in. So I didn't know that kind of, I didn't know how that worked. And, uh, my parents shielded me a lot. They kind of like babied me in that way of like, just not kind of preparing me, uh, they said a lot of things like money doesn't grow on trees. We can't afford that. Um, oh, if, you know, if we talked about winning the lottery, it was like, oh yeah. Wouldn't that be nice? You know? Like, are you like very negative? Speaker 2 01:05:45 Like, oh yeah, like that'll be the day. Right? Like that's not gonna happen. Right. So Debbie downer about like, you know, fantasy everybody has. And um, so I didn't learn a lot of that. Um, and then going into a profession that like is not so consistent and not so lucrative often, you know, to be an artist consistently is, is a Fe all in its own. And so I kind of found a way to get by, but I never was really making great strides until I learned kind of a little bit more how to save. And that was my, so my, and listen, there's a lot of ideas about saving. There's a lot of ideas about like how to save and blah, blah, blah. And then there's also ideas of like, uh, if you're in a poverty situation, it's impossible to save because you just aren't making enough money. Speaker 2 01:06:31 Okay. So I acknowledge that. And, and if that is where people are like, yes. And I have been there as well. I remember saving was off the table. That is like not a thing. I remember the moments where a, a surprise expense could bankrupt me, you know, like in that moment mm-hmm <affirmative> so, and one thing that my parents did teach me was to like, have, I was able to get some kind of credit card to use for emergencies, but I was expected to pay it, you know, off in, in increments or whatever I needed to do. So that keep a zero balance. Yeah. Oh no, I wasn't. No, they didn't teach me that that's that I had to learn. That's a good one. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, that's a good one. Dana. Um, no, but like, okay. That you had that for, um, for expenses and like, you know, like emergencies and then you would have to like slowly pay it off cuz you, you couldn't afford to pay it. Speaker 2 01:07:18 That's why you put it on the card plus the interest. Yes. And so, um, you know, I do recall those times and I remember those moments for me. Um, and then as I started getting a little more consistent work, you know, solidifying my side hustles, I consider teaching a side hustle. I consider, you know, um, um, doing my little passive income ventures, side, hustling, uh, you know, all that kind of stuff that kind of goes on. Even burlesque for me was kind of a side hustle when I was doing more TV and film stuff, because I was doing a lot of burlesque gigs. They're more flexible. I could kind of come and go as them. They were available to me. So that's kind of even a side hustle though. It became a main hustle. Um, and so, uh, what I started doing is when I would make more money, I wouldn't change my life, uh, condition, meaning I wouldn't mm-hmm <affirmative> when I made more money, I didn't buy the extra things. Speaker 2 01:08:10 Mm-hmm <affirmative> I took that money and I would put it in a savings account or an overdraft account for if my next month my checks, you know, for various jobs took too long to come in. So I had some leeway, right. And then I slowly kind of, you know, saved up and saved up and saved up and saved up. So if you can get to a place where you are making more money and that money doesn't immediately need to go out everywhere or you're already behind. Cause that's a different situation. If you can find a way to either invest that money or put it in a savings account, um, and not, and like, like reserve the urge to splurge on the thing. And now I also am a proponent for, uh, uh, for, um, gifting yourself. Right? Not being so stringent that you don't get anything nice. But there is that, that's one thing that I did to change Speaker 0 01:08:53 Or that you don't invest that you don't like put money in or spend money to make money as Speaker 2 01:08:58 Yes. And investment stuff. Like you can always get a financial advisor, get a, um, you wanna make sure you wanna find out if you have a fiduciary or a non fiduciary, right. Speaker 0 01:09:08 That's 100% must be fiduciary. Yes. Must be 100% ask them Speaker 2 01:09:12 First. Yes. That's they can't lie to you. And it's, and it's, that means they have to work in your best interest. And that seems scary. They're like, oh my God, someone could not work in my best interest. Yes. <laugh> so fiduciary financial advisor, if you wanna look to where you wanna invest money, whatever, but, or if they have extra information for you on that. And a lot of financial advisors, their first, um, meeting is free. So you can kind of get a lot of information from them right off. Does Speaker 0 01:09:35 He come prepared if you come with questions? Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 01:09:37 Yeah. So that's a thing. And then, um, I learned how to balance transfer. So you take your debt. If you have a high percentage that you're paying and you, if you are getting, um, you know, sometimes credit cards will send you like introductory offers or you just apply for one, see how much you could, um, get mm-hmm <affirmative> for a zero interest for 12 months or whatever new card open it, take all of that old debt that you have that has a high, um, APR high interest rate. You balance transfer, usually pay three to 5% or like a, um, uh, a, a standard rate to move it. And it's usually not too much, but then you have zero interest and you can just chip away at that debt. And then usually what happens is because in this other card that now you just took all the money away from in six to 10 months is gonna want you back. So they're gonna send you a zero. They're Speaker 0 01:10:26 Gonna lower the rate. Speaker 2 01:10:27 Yes. Or just a zero interest. So then I take all that money that I'm running outta time now, cuz that's gonna go back up to a normal API. I take that balance back interesting back to the zero. And so I haven't paid a diamond interest in probably a really long time Speaker 0 01:10:45 Work, but you have to stay on that though, cuz that no, but you Speaker 2 01:10:49 Just make a note. You just make a little note, like you put it on the little thing where the card is, cuz I don't keep those cards in my wallet. Those are just cards to pay off debt. Yeah. No, those are not, those are not spending ones. If I'm paying that up. No, Speaker 0 01:10:59 Those do not come out into the world where they make it used. Speaker 2 01:11:02 No, it's just there. It's just there to pay off that debt. And so, um, you know, I just chip it down and then I see, oh it's coming up next month. So I'll balance transfer that now. And this helps your credit. This, this like helps your, your credit wonder oddly. Um, so I do that. I kind of like do that now. I'm good at something like that, not everybody is like, not everybody Speaker 0 01:11:20 Wants to shuffle money around like that. Speaker 2 01:11:21 But I do wanna say for people that are having a hard time with finances, whether you have debt, whether you're an under earner, you're never quite able to make enough money to thrive or survive. If you are, um, flagrant with your money, if you have a gambling problem, if you, um, are so stringent with your money, you can't spend it. All of these things are also in the category of like, um, money, DISE, DISE around money, right? Not ease mm-hmm <affirmative> not a lot of ease around money and there's a 12 step for that and it's called da and that's called debtor's anonymous and it, you don't have to just be in debt. That's another like Overeaters Speaker 0 01:11:57 Anonymous, all the money, all Speaker 2 01:11:59 The money, Speaker 0 01:11:59 Things, topics, all Speaker 2 01:12:00 The money topics. And it's one of these things you just show up to these meetings. They're everywhere. They're on zoom. They're in person. They don't cost anything. You can pay $2 as a, as a donation. But if you're a newcomer, they don't even expect you to donate and it's run by people for people. No one runs it. No one's the, the, you know, the leadership changes Speaker 0 01:12:16 The leader Speaker 2 01:12:17 And it's like a group therapy situation of people who are dealing with the same things. You share your things, all your shame comes out, things get lighter, things get better. That's what happens in Speaker 0 01:12:26 You feel your feelings, Speaker 2 01:12:27 You feel your feelings Speaker 0 01:12:28 And you learn tools and you learn from a, a group of people. Yes. Who are there. Yeah. Because they think they're making mistakes, whether they are or not. Yes. You get to learn Speaker 2 01:12:39 From it and people have pulled themselves out using those things and using that system. Wow. So I just say that in case, because also I, I got myself to a place where I'm not like a perfect candidate for da, but I see the genius in that program. And if you are, if the things I'm saying sound like a foreign language, I understand that mm-hmm <affirmative> and it is a language you can learn. It's a financial language, but it's a language you can learn. If this all sounds like, uh, gobbly goo and your brain shuts off, da might be a better thing because you might need to get like some, a couple ladder up the ladder before SOS stuff is like even desirable or that makes sense in that way. But that's kind of another little thing that the transferring the interest thing is a little thing I learned. And then, um, what it really, really ramped it up in my brain because I'm always like, oh, I don't own a house. You know, I, you know, my, this is that. And I'm that, and I'm this, you know, I always think that I'm in such a terrible position and tell the pandemic happened. And I had not only savings that I could not work and be fine, but I was able to qualify for everything except Speaker 0 01:13:45 Loans. Speaker 2 01:13:45 One of the programs. Yes. So I got two, wow. Two of the PPP loans that were, um, uh, fully, uh, uh, turned into grants because they were, yeah. Speaker 0 01:13:54 What do they call all fully forgivable? Speaker 2 01:13:56 And I got like a huge grant because I was like really early in applying for the S nice. And then I got two other grants that were like either small business or artist. The only one I got turned down for was the S V OG, which I Teeter toter would qualify for. It was the hardest, it was the hardest, most time consuming application. It was a bummer. I didn't get that one, cuz that one really hurt. But, um, but nonetheless, but it was because of the way I've kind of done my thing every year I do my taxes. I keep my records. I, you know, I, I paid my city tax and I'm seen as a business because I got flagged one year because I didn't or whatever, you know? So all those things. But in that realm of all these things during the pandemic, I was helping people with unemployment. Even though I barely knew I was doing myself, I was helping people do these SBA loans. I was trying to get people to sign up for these grants and these loans because we qualified. And I had so many conversations with so many people on the phone, on the Instagram everywhere. I had so many conversations with people and I was floored by the amount of shame that everybody had around money and around their situation. Mm-hmm <affirmative> it was literally within the first two sentences. Most not everyone I talked to, I talked to some people Speaker 0 01:15:08 I'm so embarrassed to ask. I can't believe that I'm saying, and I'll Speaker 2 01:15:11 Also, and not even that, but like while my, I haven't paid my taxes in two year, three years, five, and I'm like, okay, like what a bummer? Like, cuz this gonna be hard. Like this is gonna make this harder. Um, you know, and I get it. Like nobody wants to pay taxes. Nobody not only do you just not wanna possibly have to pay it, but to deal with it. I get, it's very boring. It's not fun. It's not artsy. It's not bright. It's not colorful. It's not fun. Um, Speaker 0 01:15:36 Don't even get me started. <laugh> it's terrible. My regular listeners know that this is a, you're about to take the lid off a boiling pot with conversation. Yeah. Its Speaker 2 01:15:44 Terrible. Speaker 0 01:15:45 But, but, but we do it and when you do it with whatever emotional state you may need to be in in order to get it done. Yeah. Then it's done. Yes. And you have a, you get to point to it later. Yeah. When you're asking for money. Yeah. Making more money. Yes. Spending money, getting approved for a thing alone, whatever. Yes. Like doing it, keeping it yes. Having a record of it. My husband and I started an email thread, um, and a Google drive folder. That's just like all the things. When we have an information, when we get a paid, you know, paid statement, it all goes into the thing. As long as, as you have it somewhere confined or give to a professional for them to decode. Yeah. Yes. Big fan of having a money team. Yes. But also a big fan of remembering that, you know, we're, we're told all the time that there's no bad question unless it's already been asked <laugh> right. Um, I sort of feel like the same is true. No, no question is a stupid question. When the subject hasn't been taught. No. And if nobody taught you how to do this, no. Then all of the questions are valid. All of the frustrations are valid. Yeah. But learn like that's important. Do the learning. And I still get frustrated myself with that because every year I'm like, wait didn't we figure this out last year. Right. Did I thought we had an answer to this? Um right. Speaker 0 01:17:09 But we keep chipping away. I'm so glad you're talking to people about it because we, we yeah. Independent contractors or people with small businesses that pay themselves to, you know, be working mm-hmm <affirmative> um, have, have certainly come upon the same struggles mm-hmm <affirmative> and if one of us has found a way to fix it and can help other people then wonderful. Yeah. Let's share that learning. I think I Speaker 2 01:17:38 Valid think like a lot of it it gets and that's in that article that you mentioned, like, I love that you loved it. Cuz I feel like a lot of people, it might have been too boring for them. Uh, you know like, because I'm like, there's a difference between professionalism and being a good business person. And those two things can be the same. Like they can be like I'm professional and I'm a good per business person. Or you could be like, I'm a really good professional. I'm on time. I do the job. Well I show up, I am great to have around. I can't seem to manage my finances, you know? Or I don't know where my tax stuff is or I haven't filed taxes in 10 years or whatever that is. Or you're like, I'm a really great business person. I file all my taxes. I do all my things. I'm really go with my money, but I cannot show up on time. I'm not dependable. I'm not gonna choreography. Right. You know, like it Speaker 0 01:18:23 Really, you have to be the, the holy Trinity of like capable, which you mentioned earlier is the baseline. Yeah. Excellent dancer baseline. If you're talking about being a professional, I mean, if you're talking about that boom part two professional. Yep. Enjoyable. Yeah. Responsible help. Help the team look good. Yep. And then also the business person, which says like Speaker 2 01:18:45 That's on gen really. Speaker 0 01:18:46 It's actually one of the things that I talk about a lot when I talk about money, um, is the separation of math and drama. Yes. And a lot of times we conflate the tube, but sometimes numbers are just numbers. They're not good. They're not bad. They're neutral. Yeah. And you get to do the number, part. Yeah. Neutrally mm-hmm <affirmative> or you, you, to be honest, you can feel however you wanna feel while you're addressing money. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, it's just so often we think we have to feel bad because that's the story that like, that's the story you and I are telling today. Right, right. It's the culture right. In our country to be like, oh, it's taxes much great. Angry and frustrating, but that's optional. Um, but yeah, there's so much of it. Sometimes it's like a necklace that just needs to be untangled. Yes. Speaker 0 01:19:26 But once you get the, the hook end and the O end, you're like, okay, that's the number mm-hmm <affirmative> and this is me and my skill, my talent, my network, my whatever. Yeah. Okay. How do I have those two things fit? It's a pipe. Do I create the number that I wanna have? Yes. Do I think about the number that I have right now? How is that? Like, how is that all fit together? Yeah. And like, can I, can I use my creative strengths as a creative person to like you did create passive income? Yeah. Or can I use my ideas about myself and my value to ask for a raise? Yeah. Like yes. Understanding a savings account is part of it, but sometimes not working for free is part of it. Sometimes absolutely. Asking for more money is part of sometimes asking for gas, money is part of it like small asks. Yes. And you can also decide how you feel when you're making those. Speaker 2 01:20:15 And that would be a da thing for sure. Because that's in an under earner category and people talk about that stuff all the time and you don't even have to be like having trouble with money to go to a meeting like that and get something out of it. I went to one of those meetings, Speaker 0 01:20:29 I'm gonna do it. Can't Speaker 2 01:20:30 Wait. Like, this is great. This is a great meeting. Like I don't even think I have really issues with money, but you know what? I could be better at stating my worth negotiating without a bunch of weird, like, Ugh, I don't want them to say no. Like, you know, or all of those things. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> I, I wasn't taught to negotiate. In fact, I was taught the opposite. Do not in Speaker 0 01:20:47 A great right. Don't talk about money. Speaker 2 01:20:48 Yeah. Don't talk about money, all those things. Right. Totally. And now we get to the place where it's like, okay, cool. So now you have to pick your hard, do you have to pick it? It's both gonna be hard. Right? Doing taxes, hard. Finding someone to do them, having to pay them hard. Right. If you don't wanna do it fine, hard or not pay them, not be able to then, uh, access your savings account because the IRS has frozen it because I harder. Yeah. Harder for me. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, it's not the hard I would want, you know, mm-hmm <affirmative> but maybe for someone else they'd rather have that hard, but you know, because it does eventually catch up at some way, shape or form. So it's a pick your hard situation. Um, and uh, yeah, so I I'm, I'm a proponent of I'm always like knowledge is power as much as like I'm terrible in learning new things. Like I'm very dramatic in it. I'm very disappointed in myself that I don't already know it. It's always like a very arduous, terrible scenario for me to have to learn something new. But my problem is that I'm constantly trying to do something new. So there's Speaker 0 01:21:46 My spirit. You learn turns out. Yes. Speaker 2 01:21:47 My spirit is like, I'm gonna do this now I wanna do this. And I wanna do that. And while all of those things require a crash course in what they are. And so I'm always just like trudging through a whole new thing that I'm just like, I can't believe I have to do this again. I can't believe, I don't know everything by now. How dare I? Right. Speaker 0 01:22:04 Right. See, I experience something similar, which is like so many interests. Right? Squirrel. I just like wanna do the thing. And then plus I've talked about this on the podcast before too, uh, the Dunning Kruger effect where at the beginning of that new thing, it feels great. You're not even mad that you're a beginner because you don't know how much you don't know yet. Mm-hmm <affirmative> it. You have that beginner's glow. Yeah. The luck, whatever it is. And it's not until like, Ugh, you really get it like a couple years into that thing that you're like, oh, I'm terrible. I know nothing. <laugh>. And what gets you out of that place is also your, your thoughts. Yeah. Like you said, choose your hard, do I wanna be a person who ends in that VA in the Dunning Kruger valley, right, right after beginner, where you find out that you know, that there are many, many, many people who are better than you at that thing and know more than you at that thing. Or do you wanna stay there? Like choose your heart. I don't wanna stay there. Yeah. Yeah. I'll ch I'll chip away. Slow. Yeah. You find me when I'm 80. I might be up at the top of that next plateau. Right. Speaker 2 01:23:04 Don't end in the valley. Don't die in I the valley. Speaker 0 01:23:07 Yeah. I would rather slowly hike and that's where I am slowly hiking on so many different things right now. Speaker 2 01:23:12 I relate to that. Speaker 0 01:23:14 I really, um, well, my friend, I didn't get to gush about your character on Maisel, but maybe that's more appropriate that I do in person anyways. Um, I think if you haven't seen Jillian in marvelous, Mrs. Maisel, uh, what is your, what is your character's name? Speaker 2 01:23:31 Uh, so I had a bunch of character names. I was, uh, I was angel Speaker 0 01:23:35 Who's. That's what I thought. That's how I remember you. Speaker 2 01:23:37 Yeah. So angel, that's her stripper name? Her name is Mina, then I Mina. Yep. And then I was the window washer. Um, yep. And uh, Speaker 0 01:23:48 Oh, she was so cute. Yep. And then, oh, she was so clever Speaker 2 01:23:52 Window washer. And then my line was under my name. They wrote in my name for that line, Speaker 0 01:23:57 Jillian. Speaker 2 01:23:58 Yeah. And then, uh, Speaker 0 01:23:59 We love a line by the way. I was so excited for you. I was like, you better speak, you better speak. I was so Speaker 2 01:24:05 Excited. And then I was, uh, the plumber in the, um, the one, the one at the end of, in the apartment building all Speaker 0 01:24:12 Of the room. Yes. And I was afraid when I saw you with a plunger because I've been to the box a few, too many times in New York city and I was not prepared. I was like, oh my God, no Speaker 2 01:24:21 Is gonna happen. Speaker 0 01:24:22 I was like, it's a family show. Um, Speaker 3 01:24:25 Oh, oh no. Speaker 0 01:24:27 <laugh> Speaker 2 01:24:28 Oh, no. Speaker 0 01:24:28 You just pop the snap off my overalls. Speaker 2 01:24:31 Oh no. It's it's the burlesque. God's now that's true. Burlesque. God's the burlesque gods, right. Doing for you. What you refuse to do for yourself in this moment? Get naked. Just, um, Speaker 0 01:24:44 Just pop the snap right Speaker 2 01:24:46 Off. Pop the snap. Speaker 0 01:24:48 Okay. So here's my question for you. Speaker 2 01:24:50 Yeah. Speaker 0 01:24:51 Um, I don't, I have never been a series. I don't know what your contract technically was, but like a regular in a show like that to be working on something for that long. What did it feel like to be, or I'm just assuming that it took a long time or that you felt ingrained like in the family mm-hmm <affirmative> was it like, oh man, I have too many questions for like end of podcast moment. <laugh> we we're, we're gonna probably need to do a, like a loop around Ooh. Would be fun to have you and Kelly and Margarite, uh, talking about like the nature, the culture that it was created from. Yeah. It that's season Speaker 2 01:25:34 Real. That season was, uh, a L'Oreal Huntington was the, uh, associate for season four. Speaker 0 01:25:41 Got it. Yep. Copy. Yeah. Speaker 2 01:25:42 Um, so good. Kelly and I have been helping with this season, uh, season five, but yeah, so L'Oreal was the one that helped her with last season. L'Oreal actually did her and I did Briles shows with ladies and lace together and stuff like that way back in the day, but, um, what Speaker 0 01:25:56 A cool full circle Speaker 2 01:25:58 Moment. Well, so I've never done that either. I've never had that opportunity in work where it's like, like you really get to come back and come back and come back and come back and you really get to know people. Like that's what I was trying to say as, as a dancer, not, you know, I've done it as an, as an assistant, you know, where you're like working throughout time on a project or a lot of times with the same crew or whatever, but as a dancer, like it was so awesome. It was six months. It was started at the end of January, 2021. So just to put it in perspective, this is like pro-vaccine they were being developed, but they weren't being released yet. Um, it was still the height of COVID pandemic. Um, we had just gotten a new president, but he hadn't, he had just been sworn in, this is a few weeks after the January 6th, you know, uh, capital, you know, the riot. Speaker 2 01:26:43 So it was, there was a lot going on and I was, you know, off of sitting on my ass for however long, like everybody else, um, year and a half year, year and a half, like, and you know, so everything about everything felt very unfamiliar for me, anxiety at an all time high, you know, mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and so, you know, and, and, and trying not to get COVID in the process, mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, and being really nervous to be around people after not being around people and quarantine, because I took it very seriously. I've also, like, I might have mentioned earlier, I'm quite obsessive. I'm still wearing a mask everywhere. I'm one of those people that's like, you know, people say they're obsessive compulsive, but you can really pinpoint who they are now because they're still wearing masks everywhere. And that's me, right. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> the toxicity thing for me. Speaker 2 01:27:31 And the contamination thing for me is real. So it was very hard for me to kind of get my bearing. Um, and, but it was a such an incredible, amazing experience. And, um, I, you know, I was during the pandemic, I knew that a lot of the burlesque stuff may not come back for me. Uh, I knew that we were the first to be let go before even shut down. They started shutting, like not, not bars. Yes. All the bars were getting shut down. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then I, I knew we would be the last to be brought back. I knew. And I didn't know if we would be brought back, period. I didn't know if that culture would return. I didn't know if the bars would have the money. Right. I didn't know if they would open again, you know, so I really didn't know if that was gonna happen. Speaker 2 01:28:07 And my senses said it probably wouldn't, it wasn't gonna come back the way it was. And I didn't know, TV and film, you know, that was kind of like, has always been elusive for me here and there. It's not as consistent. So I was like, I don't know if that's even as much for me anymore. And so I sat around during the pandemic and I thought, you know, this, I might be retired. Like, this might be it. And it was, it was solemn, but it wasn't sad. It was like, it was, um, grounded and like, okay, this might be it. This might be my retirement. This isn't how I imagined this isn't I don't like that. I didn't get to choose it this way, but like, this might be it. And then immediately, all I could feel was gratitude because I was like, well, you had a good run. You did everything more than once. That's my friend. You performed every single weekend, multiple times. Like you have done it. And as I like me talking to myself, like, you've done it, you've have done it. You can't be anything but grateful. And I was like, yeah, you're right. You're right. I can't be like, if this is it, this is it. And then Mar calls me <laugh> I had something I think is right for you. <laugh> Speaker 0 01:29:10 Oh my gosh. Speaker 2 01:29:11 And so of course, so I say this story to say that I was done, I had, I had completely embrace the fact that it was time to move on, that I was done. Speaker 2 01:29:23 Wow. And then the biggest job my career called. And so six months in New York playing all these characters, I, I couldn't have imagined a, a more perfect job that I wanted. I wanted to do more burlesque on film. I've only had one other opportunity previous. I was on better things with Pamela Alden. Um, lovely love her. Um, so it was something that I've desired to be able to get, to merge those two things, all of the per all of the burlesque performance stuff and culture that I've done for mm-hmm, <affirmative> over a decade with all of my knowledge and fine tuning of TV and film and merge them was like, chef's kiss. It's just, Speaker 0 01:30:02 You know, I'm telling you, that's how I felt watching it. I was like that her is perfect in the costume, in the movement, in that place. And oddly, even in that period. Yeah, it was right. It just, I mean, it was so right. And I, don't not to bring it back to like being right or being wrong, but being full and coming something coming as full circle as that. And the fact that it came to you after full release is something I have also, especially lately been talking about on the podcast, um, ambition and releasing it and how, yes, how, how those two, Speaker 2 01:30:39 And it was Speaker 0 01:30:40 Interact <laugh> Speaker 2 01:30:41 It was like, it did feel like an accumulation of my life's work led up to that moment, oddly, like it really felt, um, per perfect every bit about it was easy. The audition process was easy. Getting to read lines was easy, you know, not that it wasn't neurotic and wanted to not do a good job and, you know, wasn't all that, but it was E it was everything about, it was easy in the sense of, I didn't have to try too hard. I didn't feel like I had to chase anything. It was kind of already laid out for me. And, um, I, I doing that job too. Like I was, uh, quite a few pounds heavier than I wanted to be sitting over. COVID, you know, like that's what happens when I'm not active. I put on weight and I, I it's, it's against my sobriety and my eating disorder recovery to do huge diets and to get, try to lose weight as fast as possible. Ooh. Speaker 0 01:31:31 So yes, my family, Speaker 2 01:31:32 I wasn't allowed to do that before this job. I was, I, I was trying to be as healthy as I could and still mind that I was gonna have to be doing some act active things. So I was trying to do that, but I, I, I had to really be strict about not getting crazy and I wanted to get crazy and, um, going, whoa, going to do the job and, and, and knowing that like hyping myself and being like, yeah, you're not gonna get to wear your fishnet tights that you always like to wear. You're probably gonna be bear. Like, that's not, that's not it's period. That's not how Speaker 0 01:32:00 You Speaker 2 01:32:00 Did it at that time period, period thing. Yep. You're, you're not gonna be in control of the lighting and the angles you're gonna be doing someone's work. So you're gonna have to do it what that's required. Yeah. You're not gonna be in your own costumes that you make, especially for yourself. Cuz you know what you like on your body, you're gonna be up to like what they're gonna wear. You know, you're gonna be performing again, which you haven't done in a room full of people, shouting and many in over a year, which like, you know, is, is cathartic and lovely. But also with the idea of, COVID also very frightening. Mm-hmm <affirmative> even though there's all the protocols of testing and all that, but it's still, you know, a thing. And there was this moment when I was in rehearsal with Margarite and L'Oreal and they're so lovely to me and there's so a supportive and they were so great during this whole process, you know, they, I had this moment where Margaret's like, okay, cool. Speaker 2 01:32:43 Put on the practice costumes and let's start this. And I'm in like bright light, like big studio, like bright ass fluorescent, light thong, you know, bra angel wings, you know, like just the, and not even the bear, you know, like, and I'm just like, oh my God, oh my God. Oh my God. And Mar's like, you're beautiful. Everything's beautiful. I love it. You know? Like, she's that. And, and if you don't know this about Margarite, she loves all bodies dancing. She finds all bodies dancing. Very interesting. She likes bigger bodies, dancing. She really likes bigger body dancing. It's like, so she's all over it. But me, me, how I think I'm like losing my shit. And I'm like, oh my God, oh my God. Oh my God. And I just stood there. And I said to myself, I was like, this is not how I'm gonna remember this experience. This is not, this is the biggest exper, this is the biggest job. This is the big, this is epitome of what you've been able to do in your career. And this is not how you want to remember it. Don't remember it by Speaker 0 01:33:37 Trying to force yourself into a shape that you Speaker 2 01:33:39 Aren't don't. Yes. Don't don't remember it like this. You remember all the jobs you did when you didn't feel good enough. You remember all the times that you thought you looked bad in that costume. Because for me, every moment in this present is the worst I've looked. And then I look back at photos. I'm like, oh my God, I look so amazing. I Speaker 0 01:33:54 Look, I look fabulous. Speaker 2 01:33:56 I looked fabulous. What was I doing? But you know, it's, it's like my here and now that I have such a hard time with, and I just kept saying, I don't wanna remember that. Like, you don't wanna remember this like this. You don't wanna remember this experience like this. And in that moment, I was like, you're right. I'm gonna remember this in this moment. Right now, like this badass job that I get to do. And I had to keep reminding myself that I had to not look in a mirror a lot. I had to trust that everything on marvelous, miss Maslow is beautiful. And I would be no exception that they wouldn't somehow forget me in the process. Hmm. That they would make me beautiful. And I oftentimes, when I'm performing burlesque, because I don't have the, um, self image of body, you know, I have a lot of body dysmorphia. Speaker 2 01:34:38 I imagine myself looking in a way that I don't actually look. And so I had to do that a lot. I imagine myself in my best angle, best photo, best lighting. That's how I imagine myself. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and I refuse to see otherwise. So I will avoid mirrors. I won't change my makeup. I won't look at myself in the mirror. I really avoid it. And I go completely into what I think. I look like what I want to look like. And that's, that's where I have to go. And you know, it's been interesting. People's feedback of it has been so positive and I was ready for the negative. Not from people I knew. I didn't think anybody I knew would be, you know, shitty about it, but random internet people, right? Oh my Speaker 0 01:35:14 Gosh. Yes. I was Speaker 2 01:35:15 Like, oh God, what are the random internet? People are gonna say, because even though I don't care, it hurts. It's, you know, it's terrible. Mm-hmm <affirmative> people are terrible. And so, and I didn't experience that. It might be out there, but I didn't experience it. And people's, uh, response has been so overly positive about my body. And I was just like, you don't understand. I was like post COVID and I had so much weight and I didn't have like tights. And it was like, you know, everything's out there just flapping around. And it's just like, they're like, that's superior. That's the character. That's the deal. And I had to remind myself that too, that they know what they're doing and I'm not gonna argue with what they think is right. And I've said that a lot to people when you're auditioning as well, like, you don't need to decide, you're not right for it. Let them decide. You don't need to decide, you know, if you're right for something or not, you're not gonna make that decision. You don't get to make that decision. Let them make that decision. You know, because I will always decide I'm not right for something before I know if I am or not. Cause that's my default. Right. There's something wrong with me. Speaker 0 01:36:11 Right, right. Speaker 2 01:36:12 Full circle. Speaker 0 01:36:13 Well, as a, a woman with a body, I was so grateful to see your body up there, looking real and looking capable and looking fully like embodied borderline possessed <laugh> with like its purpose out there. And I think it's, you know, we've talked a little bit about the period of the show and how your body or your look or your way were perfect for that period. Mm-hmm <affirmative> but the show is not about then. No, the show's about right now. Yes. And so seeing you right now, the way you are right now, it was so freaking powerful. And I've I know I'm not alone. When I tell you that I probably had the same moment with that, that you did when you saw or listened to physical mm-hmm <affirmative> and like, it's like this, like, oh my gosh, she sees me, she gets that hot isn't Instagram abs, or like that weird pinched fucking waist and thigh thing, or like the thigh gap. Speaker 0 01:37:19 Like she gets that that's not hot. And I love that. You said Margarite loves moving bodies. I agree. I think a hot body is a dancing body mm-hmm <affirmative> and your body was dancing and it was acting and it was so compelling and it fit into the world perfectly. Even though that is a beautiful world, it fit into the world perfectly because it was beautiful. And I'm sure it was beautiful because it was in the world. But, oh man, I cannot tell you, I watched your scenes over and over again. I would just go back and I would watch it again. Cause I so enjoyed Speaker 2 01:37:52 My God. Thank you so Speaker 0 01:37:53 Much. What did gosh, yeah. Big, big, big fan of you. Big fan of the, the team who stuck to, and I'm sure you, weren't the only one of those women having those thoughts, um, about, you know, enoughness, especially, I don't know, it seems like a, a beautiful trickle out world that they created there, the leadership, the talent, the people making decisions, but, well, I'm so glad it happened. I'm so glad it was you. And thank Speaker 2 01:38:23 You, man. It was, it was really spectacular too, that all of the soloists are, were less dancers. Some of them have more dance background than others. Some might do more, Speaker 0 01:38:35 But they were all TV, TV Speaker 2 01:38:36 Film as well Speaker 0 01:38:36 From the wor from that Speaker 2 01:38:37 World. Yes. They are very integrated in that world. Um, you know, some of the, uh, some of the, uh, when we did, um, the, the good finale and the bad finale, there's some actors in there that were, you know, that were part of the show. And then there's some dancer dancers that I wouldn't necessarily put in the burlesque world. But any of the soloists that you saw, those are all burlesque dancers that have a burlesque following, you know, they do not like, I'm not saying they had to have a certain amount of followers. I'm just saying Speaker 0 01:39:04 They, but before the show, yes, they existed as that thing. Speaker 2 01:39:07 They're immersed in that world. And it is like its own kind of counterculture to, um, other dance industries. So I was like, I was so happy that Amy, she and Palladino Dan Pino, Mar Dereks, like, um, they really saw the value in having like people who had a burlesque background in those positions. Yeah. And Amy was like a proponent of wanting people who looked real in those roles. Um, yeah. And she kind of is that way over time in space, it seems like she does really enjoy interesting faces or people that have, you know, interesting looks or not the, uh, very status quo, you know, whatever that trendy thing is in that moment. Speaker 0 01:39:43 Oh, I love that. I'm grateful for it. I might go start. I might go start back at season one, before five comes out. When does five come out? Speaker 2 01:39:51 Uh, we're still doing it. So we just Speaker 0 01:39:53 Do not tell me what happens to I won't, I Speaker 2 01:39:55 Can't, I don't, I don't even know it's it hasn't even be written. It hasn't even been written yet. We just did a really big dance Speaker 0 01:40:00 Episode. My body temperature just increased. There's Speaker 2 01:40:02 A very big dance episode. Very big dance episode. I, I, I am not on screen. I helped back, uh, be, uh, behind the scenes, but it's a lot of dance and it's very cool. I think you're gonna like it a lot. Marrie Marrie did an incredible job. Speaker 0 01:40:16 New levels of greatness. Yeah. All right. Well, leave me in anticipation then I'm so excited to see it. Um, so excited to see your face and thank you for being so generous with your stories means a lot Speaker 2 01:40:28 Happy to I'm. I'm so, so happy to do this, and I love what you're doing, I think is really important. Speaker 0 01:40:34 Thank you, my friend. We'll do it again sometime. Speaker 2 01:40:37 Yes, please. Speaker 0 01:40:38 Yeah. I mean, really we did hit, we did hit all my beats, but I mean, I could keep going, but we're not gonna keep going. I'm gonna send you off into the world. Thank you. Thank you. Love you. Love you. Speaker 2 01:40:46 Thank you. Speaker 0 01:40:48 Bye. Speaker 0 01:40:53 Well, my friends I'm floored. I am floored by that episode. So grateful for that conversation. Um, I'm, I'm very appreciative for Jillian's vulnerability and her strength in the way that she talks about her relationship to her body. Um, I am so inspired and curious to learn more about the 12 step programs that she mentioned, all of which will be linked for you in the show notes. If you are curious as well. Um, I, I really loved this idea of picking your hard, like if it's gonna be hard, no matter what you might as well pick the kind of hard that it is specifically around money. Um, I also love the idea of embracing being done only to begin again, not to bring it back to my real, but that's sort of how it feels. It feels real ready to begin again. And it's so, so, so good. Speaker 0 01:41:47 Uh, so I'd like to leave you with this today. Is there, is there a cat that you can stop chasing? Is there a thing that you think you can feel okay. Releasing, like click ship and let it go. Um, or regarding Julian's uh, marvelous, miss Maisel mom, is it Mrs or miss Maisel moment? I don't remember. Um, is there a place in your life that you can trust that things will be beautiful? Is there a place in your life that you can trust that you will be perfect there, that you will be enough? I really, really hope so. And I hope you can take that feeling out into the world with you and keep it very, very funky. Thank you, my friend, I will talk to you soon. Bye. This podcast was produced by me with the help of many music by max Winnie logo and brand design by Bree res and big thanks to Riley Higgins, our executive assistant and editor also massive, thanks to you. Speaker 0 01:42:59 The mover, who is no stranger to taking action. So go take action. I will not cannot stop you from downloading episodes or leaving a review and a rating. I will not ban you from my online store for spending your hard earned money on the cool merch and awesome programs that await you. There. I will, 100% not stop you from visiting words that move me.com. If you wanna talk with me, work with me and make moves with the rest of the words that move me community. Oh, and also I will not stop you from visiting the Dana wilson.com. If you're curious about all the things that I do that are not words that move me related. All right, my friend, keep it funky. I'll talk to you.