Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to words that move me, the podcast where movers and shakers, like you get the information and inspiration. You need to navigate your creative career with clarity and confidence. I am your host, Dana Wilson. And I move people. I am all about the tools and techniques that empower tomorrow's leaders to make the work of their dreams and live a full life while doing it. So whether you're new to the game or transitioning to your next echelon of greatness, you're in the right place. Hello? Hello, my friend. Welcome towards that. Move me. I am Dana. I know that. I always say this seriously, top of every episode, I say you are really in for a treat <laugh>, but it's so true. It's so true. You really are in for a treat. And I am such a lucky lady to call today's guest my friend, and to get to learn from her.
Speaker 0 00:00:59 And whoa, I am very excited to share this episode because it's super special, but honestly I could have hit record on any of the conversations that I've had with our guests today, Michelle Dorrance, and that recording would've made an apple top 100 worthy podcast, for sure. She's simply that special and so well spoken and I'm excited to get right into it. But first some announcements you thought I was gonna say wins didn't you? <laugh> no wins. Come after announcements here at words that move me, get it together. Um, so have your wins ready, cuz we're almost there. All right. A few reminders. My career coaching program for seniors of the class of 2022, which is called ABC as in like the building blocks of a creative career. Um, that program begins in less than one week and we are a full house. So I am so, so so sorry if you didn't make it, but also so excited to get started.
Speaker 0 00:02:05 Um, the last two years of this intensive have been so rewarding, fulfilling and whoa, you know, especially after having this conversation with Michelle, I am jazzed to put my coach hat on. Um, and I'm so stoked for you, lucky seniors. Um, if you missed the cutoff or if you are not a senior, there are still loads of ways that we can work together. Visit words that move me.com to learn more about the words that move me, community membership and one-on-one coaching and, and, and so much more words that move me.com. It's in the show notes. Okay. That's ABC now let's talk eight counts. <laugh> we, the members of the words that move me community made a film to introduce ourselves to those who don't know who we are and what we do and how we do it. And we call it eight counts. The words that movie, and we're having a big old screening event to celebrate and raise money for future projects through our fiscal sponsor at the dance resource center, who freaking Ray y'all.
Speaker 0 00:03:21 I am Jess. I'm so excited. I know that that was already a lot of information, but if you have the bandwidth for more, the premier is on June 16th. Doors are at six 30 show starts at seven at Laly Lamel <laugh> you know, the one, the Laley I think that's how you say it. Lemley theater in Glendale. Uh, we will also be screening works from a few of our friends and having a, uh, panel Q and a with the filmmakers afterwards. Um, we're also auctioning off over $3,000 worth of goodies and surveys. That's goodies and services, but goodies and surveys come on. Um, and we are having an after party. So you don't wanna miss this link to the tickets will be in the show notes to this episode and in our Instagram profile. So go visit us at words that move me podcast on Instagram, check out the show notes.
Speaker 0 00:04:20 Um, oh, and if you are an out of town type, you will be able to stream the event. Yeah. Freaking who w freaking who moving right along? Um, let's see. Oh yes. Oh my friends. Yes. Today I am celebrating drum roll, please. A clean house and wait for it. Drum roll again. That I didn't clean myself. I didn't clean it myself. Yes. I paid a cleaning person who might also be an actual wizard because my place literally sparkles and I am so happy. Um, and with all of the hours that I wasn't cleaning my house, I was in Teddy Florence's words, crushing it on a Sunday. <laugh> I was getting work done. I was getting played, done. Ooh. So satisfying, such a great use of my dollars, such great use of my time. Um, speaking of dollars during the money March episodes, we talk about budgeting and fixed expenses and y'all, I am ready to budget. So a cleaning person fits into my fixed expenses. I am here for it, loving it. Okay. Enough about me. Let's talk about you. What is going well in your world? Hit me.
Speaker 1 00:05:56 Yay. Wow.
Speaker 0 00:06:00 Congrats. My friend. I'm so glad that you're winning. Um, keep it up. Keep crushing it on a Sunday. <laugh> okay. Enough about us, my friend. Let's talk about Michelle Dorrance and let's talk about her parents cuz they factor in, in a big way into this episode. Uh, you are about to get almost an hour of solid Dorrance, gold, my friends. So whole tights and clear your calendar because this one is worth a second. Listen. <laugh> truly, I did back to back two times. She is simply so knowledgeable. She shares so much. She's so generous. All right, we're doing it. Enjoy this conversation with the one and only Michelle Dorrance. Yes, Michelle do.
Speaker 2 00:06:53 <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:06:55 Welcome to the podcast. My friend. This is so long overdue. I am thrilled that you are joining me today. Uh, uh, welcome. Hi, <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:07:06 I am so thrilled to be here. Thank you so much for having me Dana.
Speaker 0 00:07:10 Like I am telling you the diatribes that are about to, to that are about to follow, so, okay, Michelle, I'm trying to remember exactly when we met. Do you remember or do you know how I, because in my mind, it's through Jillian and then, and we met when the seaweed sitter sisters, whoa, the seaweed sitters, uh, were putting on a show, uh, a live performance at Tova park. And I think that you were in California, you met us in Santa Monica. We sat on a bench and you helped us figure out our art bar blurt. That explains who, what are the seaweed sisters? And I just remember being like so floored by your Intel, by your intellect and your like passion for not only dance movement, art of all forms, but like explaining it and helping people understand what that is. So I can't think of a better person to have on the podcast. Um, and is that when no, we or we knew of each other for long before then. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:08:15 That's the truth. And also Dana, that was such a thrill to be able to intersect with y'all on that particular day. I mean, first of all, of course I was a fan. Um, but that's the like the stuff, no one talks about that is trash to do mm-hmm <affirmative> to, and also feels, it feels forced and it feels contrived to have to like blurb your art in a soundbite. And so, because, and because of, yeah, because of, you know, like that ex having experienced that discomfort many times over about different pieces of work mm-hmm <affirmative> because of the way I have been intersecting with the art world of late, those kinds of things always have to be written. And then, so I had such deep empathy for all of you anyway, but yes, we'd known of each other for a really long time. And what I'll tell you is we did not meet this night, but I will tell you the story of when I first saw you and knew who you were as like immediately a layered being an artist. And it was at a get ready for all of these details. Oh
Speaker 0 00:09:18 My God. I'm so ready for the details
Speaker 2 00:09:20 Already surrounding. Yeah, no, no, this is weird. And no, cause I don't even know if we've ever talked about this. We okay. Pam of the pulse.
Speaker 0 00:09:29 Yes.
Speaker 2 00:09:30 Had people at her apartment. I want to say that had a relationship to either the teacher workshop that summer or just homies that who were in town because of that particular thing that was happening that summer mm-hmm <affirmative> you and Tasha mm-hmm <affirmative> were there and also had only very, very recently embarked upon moving dancer's Alliance into reality. This is my understanding, at least in the moment. Okay. And so I knew of you through mache Petronelli who also admired your dancing. And so I'd seen some videos and then further understood that evening. That's what you were up to. And I was like, oh hell yes. Um, and then we never met. I was like, that's cool. That's like exactly the kind of commercial dance artist I believe in, in part because of that kind, the, the integrity that you had for and in support of your community. So that's like the long story for me
Speaker 0 00:10:29 Work. Thank you for saying that because I, community is a huge part of what I wanna talk about today. Um, but before we talk about community and mastery and all sorts of good stuff, we're gonna talk about you. Um, please introduce yourself, tell us everything you want us to know about you and we'll probably stop there. I certainly don't want you to tell us anything you don't want us to know about you. Um, but yeah, I, I yield the floor.
Speaker 2 00:10:57 Wow. Okay. So hi everyone. I'm Michelle Dorrance. Um, first and foremost, I'm a tap dancer. And as a tap dancer, I am a musician. I'm also a choreographer and a director, artistic director and founder of a company I created 11 years ago, known as Dorin stance. Um, and I am honestly the thing that I'll say about me, um, in part, in relationship to this conversation is I am the daughter of two really incredible powerhouse human beings. Um, incredibly hardworking, both very talented. My mom was a professional ballet dancer and, you know, danced with national ballet with Elliott Felt's first company before moving into being a powerhouse educator and, you know, teaching full time at duke university as a professor of the practice of dance and also founded a school in chapel hill, North Carolina, um, where I was raised and that school she founded before I was a year old.
Speaker 2 00:12:04 And, um, I know, right. She's just like, sorry. Dan is shaking her head for everyone who can't see. Um, and of course like founded performing companies. Anyway, I learned so much from my mom as a dancer and a creator and a choreographer and a human being and someone who is constantly also in service of so many different communities of people from our local arts and dance community to our church, to just human beings in need. Um, and my dad is one of the winningest coaches in sports history. And what was, is the founding coach of the university of North Carolina women's soccer team, he's the coach, the men, but then also one of the early coaches of the us women's national soccer team, um, and led that team to the very first ever women's world cup, um, win. And also it was the first ever women's world cup.
Speaker 2 00:12:57 I was 11. I got to see the whole thing with my own eyes in Guanjo China, which is insane. I know we can talk about that at some point, but I say that to say, my parents have everything to do with my understanding of mastery excellence, hard work, um, just, uh, integrity in what you try to pursue or hope to pursue or hope to embody. And then furthermore, I am a student, a lifelong student of gene, Medler my childhood mentor, um, who founded originally the children's tap company that turned into the North Carolina youth tap ensemble. And he has everything to do with the tap dancer, artist, human being, um, you know, also hopefully, um, artist and pursuit of excellence for the rest of my life. Um, and all three of them have to do with the educator ed educator. I am et cetera. So, um, and I say that and also just wanna honor the fact that I'm just a very lucky tapped answer of my generation because I can't tell you how, you know, really a lot of the last elders and masters of the jazz era were alive and passing away through my teen years and twenties.
Speaker 2 00:14:10 And then, you know, finally, eventually, you know, early thirties, but to have spent time with those elders, with those masters, um, in part, because Jean took us as such young dancers to these original tap festivals, like in St. Louis and Chicago, in order to spend time with these folks and, um, you know, basically be imprinted upon by them and spend, just spend time with them and absorb. I mean, you know, we, we all talk about seeking the source whenever we're talking about kind of understanding something in its purest form and embodying something with the most integrity can possibly have. And I can't believe I've, I had just time with those sources, whether it was like talking trash to each other or literally, you know, in their nineties doing something you never thought was possible. So I that's really, I've created a lot. I I've, I've been so lucky to collaborate with so many great folks and, and dance all over the damn world and teach and, and like, all of those things are great, but like, I can't believe how blessed I am at my core. And like my, you know, quote origin story as an artist is just a very incredibly lucky, blessed privileged one. Um, and that is really like the definition that I think is most important.
Speaker 0 00:15:25 That was a glorious introduction. Also, I'm learning about you so much right now. I knew about your mom and dad. Um, I knew about it's the ballet school of chapel hill, right? So that's the school, that's the school your mom found my, and that's where you started, started it
Speaker 2 00:15:40 Then became a home of tap dance, right? Like, and, and like crazy new community of tap dancers in North Carolina that would never have existed where not for gene. Medling sorry. I keep going and
Speaker 0 00:15:49 Interrupting. No, this is great. Um, so this is, this is news to me. This is awesome, but also I really, I relate with you in the feeling of being so lucky in my timing and placement on my journey of dance and pursuing excellence in it. Um, the people that I met early on, even meeting you, I definitely include you in that, but the people that I met early on, like I'm talking like Shadu Tony basil. Um, like I got to learn what became my favorite style locking, which I didn't even know existed. Yeah. When I moved to LA, I came to learn about it from the people who were there at the beginning. And that opportunity is, is not there for so many young people right now. So certainly in, I am with you on the lucky front and also on the enthusiasm front. I'm just so excited about it. And I can't wait to dig in. Oh, sorry. Backtrack. You're also the first ever Mac Arthur genius grant award winner I've ever had on the podcast. So we have <laugh> uh, wait, do we call it is the, is the genius grant award? Is that what makes you a fellow or is the MacArthur?
Speaker 2 00:17:06 No, they don't. Is it the same thing? That language that's like the social, um, you know, that's,
Speaker 0 00:17:11 That's what that,
Speaker 2 00:17:12 Editor's that social blessing and curse language surrounding it? Um, yes, they, the, the foundation just, uh, calls you a MacArthur fellow. Okay. Um, and, and it is, and it is a title that is way bigger and deeper and faster than me <laugh> and I feel like I am a part of a larger community that is represented by that title. Truly an honor, to be a fellow, of course,
Speaker 0 00:17:33 Like to be deemed a genius is sort of like to be deemed a master. We're all like, no way Jose, not me, a master, a genius now. And I think everybody that I've spoken to on the subject of mastery is like, whoa, I don't know if I'm that, but like, let's dig into like, let's talk about it. Um, anyways, if, if the MacArthur foundation is down to call you a fellow, then I'm down to call you a master and I'm down to at least discuss what to us mastery means, the pursuit of it. Um, you know, what, what that looks like. And also one thing I really want to dig into with you is how to do that without being a complete asshole to other people, right. How to like, become a master yourself, but also elevate a community around you. So I'm excited to get into that. Um, but where was I? Oh, right. I reached out to you because you have Dorn stance, you've done the blur bits. You've written the words you've gotten the grants you've put on. If I'm not mistaken, two to three full length works every year, since 2011, like you've done eight.
Speaker 2 00:18:44 I wouldn't go that far, but a lot, there's
Speaker 0 00:18:46 A lot of sore, very prolific. And that work is, I mean, it's funded, right? Dorn stance is a 5 0 1 C three, or you're always writing for grants. Like how, where does that money come from? How do you do that?
Speaker 2 00:18:59 Yeah. I mean, that is, that's a part of it, you know, constantly fundraising. This is the thing about any 5 0 1 C three, which technically is some form of, you know, charitable foundation. So in this case, we ask for support for the particular work that we pursue right. In the name of tap, dancing, creativity, and pushing boundaries and pushing ourselves, um, and of course engaging audiences and all those things. And, um, you know, spreading, hopefully the love, joy understanding and respect for our art form. Um, but yes, writing the grants and seeking the support of individual donors of foundations, of all of those things is a, a, a huge part of what makes the entire thing possible.
Speaker 0 00:19:37 Right. And that's work that you do in addition to choreographing and still performing. And I mean, people say that it's a full-time job, but this is multiple full-time jobs. Let's be real. Um, but I reached out to you when I was trying to decide if I wanted to 5 0 1 C three, did I want fiscal sponsorship? I'll spoil the surprise. I am now fiscally sponsored through the dance resource center, which is awesome. I feel great about it. But when, but when I called to like, kind of unpack, like, what are the differences? What does this even mean? Um, you, you talked to me about how excited you were that I was going to be coaching people. And you told me about your dad and my mind was fricking blown. I cannot believe I that well, I can believe that he's your dad. It makes sense because I think you're a great leader, but could you tell us some of the lessons that you've learned directly from him and maybe talk a little bit about his, his, his mode of achieving mastery of things?
Speaker 2 00:20:41 Absolutely. Yeah, no. I mean, if, if anything, you know, as I mentioned before, like there's such a, um, like an example set for me by both my parents and of course by Jean. Um, and then so specifically, because my dad is a coach, there is so much language surrounding what he does. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and also, you know, in, um, I'm, I'm just gonna guess it was early on in his coaching career that he also became a pretty sought after public speaker. So, and he, but I think also in part, because of his experience, um, and I'll get into a little bit of the nitty gritty of the early experience that he, like, I think one of the first major, um, I guess, points of expertise that he had was, uh, a perspective on the difference between coaching and motivating men and women. Right? And this is like maybe a more polarizing conversation to have now in, in terms of the way that we are like pursuing, you know, a, an understanding, a deep understanding of non-binary and gender fluidity inside of our culture. Um, but you move it back to the late seventies, early eighties, and this is real. Um, am I allowed to swear on this? I'm so sorry.
Speaker 0 00:21:57 Yes,
Speaker 2 00:21:57 I'll be careful. <laugh> okay.
Speaker 0 00:21:59 I mean, I don't know if we've met, but I certainly have been known to drop a shut it, drop a drop, a small handful of FBOs. <laugh> okay. Take it away. Didn't know
Speaker 2 00:22:09 If I was try to be mindful.
Speaker 0 00:22:10 Thank you. We'll do some BLE.
Speaker 2 00:22:13 Okay, great. Um, but so I, I, I mention, I, I say this to say that, um, it's, and this is a really, actually a, an important point of intersection of something that you mentioned already. And that you'd texted me about when we were leading up to this and it has to do with, um, like the energy and the culture of a team and what drives winning in different personalities or different kinds of people and what motivates, um, competition. Right? And so in the very early stages of coaching, both the men and the women at the university of North Carolina, and then later the national team, at one point, he was coaching all three teams, which was insane. We didn't see him much back then. Um, but with that said, he at first just started coaching the women exactly the way he coached the men in part, because, so this is during the time of title IX happening, like the, his, this, his women's team, he basically accepted a full-time position from a part-time position, coaching the men.
Speaker 2 00:23:16 They were like, how about come get to full time and coach these women whose club is applying to be a full team under, you know, the new, exciting progress that title IX was making at all these universities. Right? So, and the way he describes these, the early women's teams just scrappy, you know, dogged in their pursuit of everything badass, as tough as nails. I mean, like all these athletes of this time period are, were exceptional and could not be stopped. And it's, it's incredible to you still hear these stories. Um, but what he realized was, um, it was, um, miserable, uh, application of the way he coached men on his women's team. It did, it was not helpful. It didn't work. He couldn't walk in at halftime and kick a trash can and have them go out and win, you know, by four, you know, goals like he, if anything, um, he learned all these incredible subtleties and, you know, started defining, you know, the female race as a more sophisticated, more sensitive, more developed, more, you know, all these things, trashing men constantly because you know, in little, you know, little and big things like, um, you Compli, you compliment a man in front of the group and they all support him.
Speaker 2 00:24:35 You compliment a woman in private because if you compliment them in front of the group, everyone hates her, you know, like these little idea, and these are, these are, these are also like I'm oversimplifying things and re a reminder. This is the early eighties mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, but the idea that you criticize a group of men and every man thinks it's someone else, so you have to use videotape, like always you criticize a group of women. Every woman thinks it's them. Totally. Oh, like just, these are ma these are gross generalizations, but like, you know, so, so he was speaking early learning how to motivate, um, his women's team learning about the culture of a women's team. And there was a recruit that he had, and this is where I'll get into the arrogance asshole thing that you mentioned earlier. Mm-hmm <affirmative> he had a recruit that kept asking him on her way into, and this was like, by the way, like a pioneer in, in the women's game and was eventually the captain of the us women's national team when they were in the world cup, her name is April Hendrix, but she kept asking him how the team got along.
Speaker 2 00:25:31 And he was like, they're fine. They get along fine. Like what, you know, I don't know why is she even asking me this? And he realized what it was when she came in, she, in every drill and every one, one V one and every single at every single opportunity, she beat the shit out of whoever her opponent was on her, on the team, because she trained with the fire of endless competitive nature. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and all of the women resented her, everyone on the team. And he realized, oh, she has been disliked for this quality mm-hmm <affirmative> like, how do we build an environment in which this quality is championed? Um, and, and then, so there, there, you know, then he embarks upon like the pursuit of how to create this environment. He built something called the competitive culture, and we can go into, and also, you know, at some point you should just like talk to my dad because there's just such great stuff to be learned from his environment, even though it's very specific to the sport of soccer, but also then largely it is specific to any sport.
Speaker 2 00:26:31 And then even more largely it's about training, as he would say, on your technical and physical edge. And how do you always push yourself to this particular edge? Um, and so a lot of it has to do, you know, it's just about the environment. Oh, um, you know, even, even the length of the practice, right? Like some folks would practice for two to three hours. He kept his practices at an hour and a half so that everyone would give every single thing they had the entire time you sprint in. When you, when you jog in from a drill, you sprint out you, you know, everything. So I know, right. It's great. I love that.
Speaker 0 00:27:03 It's fascinated. So my jaws on the floor for a couple reasons, number one, because let's be real, dancers are athletic, but
Speaker 2 00:27:15 Of course we're athletes
Speaker 0 00:27:17 Dance. Isn't sports though. And art is fun and art is a game and you, you can play it like you can, you can be good at playing this thing that we do. Um, but also art art is not sports, but that sensitivity about creating environments where people can learn and grow and feel like they're winning. That is huge to me. Like that's huge to me. Um, and I've always enjoyed teaching because of that. Uh, and I always, I think it's such a shame when young dancers put way out there, like at the 50 yard line, totally don't understand sports at all. Is that as far as it goes 50, is that the furthest
Speaker 2 00:27:59 Fifties in, in, in football, that's the middle of the, uh,
Speaker 0 00:28:02 Oh, okay. So hundred put it way out there. <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:28:08 But when young dancers put a gig, like let's say a world tour out there right. At a hundred yards and they think that's winning and they will be all various degrees of miserable in the pursuit of that thing. Unless we have some healthy, competitive ideas, some ownership over our own work and, um, and training. Uh, but it's funny because dancers, although they usually are cast together, right? You have a company of dancers. Obviously we have soloists, but dancing is the pursuit of becoming a master of dance is a solo activity. That's on you, right? That's on you. You train with other people. Competition really helps. But at the end of the day, it's the individual, their willingness, their instruction, right? Like having or not having great teaching is a huge part of it. Um, but I'm really interested in this, like this idea that a person, a coach, a leader, the artistic director, the choreographer, whoever a leader can have a finger on the pulse of the environment.
Speaker 0 00:29:20 We'll call it the energy in the room and make small adjustments that really help. Um, so now I wanna bounce out to last time I was in New York, by the way, I always hit you up when I'm in New York. Even if it's only, if I'm only there for like 24 hours, cuz you got like good gr good people and great dancing. And last time I hit you up, you were like, I've got a rehearsal all day today. You can swing by if you want, you were wor working with Joette Wiggin and that's right. Yes. And I got you at
Speaker 2 00:29:49 The 92 Y
Speaker 0 00:29:50 Yes. Um, and I just got to drop in and observe. And one of the things I observed is that you were doing so many things, you welcomed me, you helped me sign in you filmed rehearsal. You were capturing little bits for Instagram. You were logging the hours as a dancer. Like you were in the chord, learning the stuff. Um, and because Joette was, it was her choreography, she was running the show and I saw you fit into those different roles. So seamlessly. Is that something that you are very conscious about or is this something that you've simply developed because you have to do all the things in order for the things to get done? Um, like, is this totally outsider's perception of what's happening or how does it feel on the inside? I just asked 14 questions.
Speaker 2 00:30:41 That's I know I received those questions. Um, and, and I think it's like, it's a combination of, of, of course of answers. But one thing I can tell you is that in this is something that, um, ING jeans, praises a little bit like the, what was what's so exceptional and unique about, um, coming up in the North Carolina youth tap ensemble, it's not just a regular youth dance company. Um, the way that gene led us was to empower us. He was not like a top down artistic director leader. Right. And yet like the company has more like the north, I'm not gonna lie to you. The North Carolina youth tap ensemble has the largest rep of any tap dance company on the planet. Like, and probably for time and all maternity until someone really like wants to go. No, it's insane. And I say this because Jean has been seeking opportunities for the dancers to work with all different kinds of choreographers in since the mid to late eighties. Like it's, it's unreal. So imagine a new work almost every year, if not too. I mean it's since the
Speaker 0 00:31:44 Eighties.
Speaker 2 00:31:45 Yeah. Literally from a south African gumbo dance and a French Canadian walls club to Savion Glover, to Barbara Duffy, to Brenda Buffalo, to I'm I'm totally serious to Diane Walker it, the rep to Sam Weber, the rep to Ted levy, the rep, I just keep going. It's insane. It's literally insane. And like, doesn't make any sense. So what I'll tell you though, is, um, Jean, you know, kind of founded this company and led it with the revolution, you know, very revolutionary thought that, you know, youth will lead us. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and we kind of know that, you know, we all know the children are our future. Like we know this, but we were truly empowered by gene to be internal leaders in the company. We are responsible for the rep ourselves. He'll give us notes, but we have to teach each other, the rep. So when you're young, you learn it usually, unless you've learned it from the choreographer, it gets passed down to you by an older member of the company.
Speaker 2 00:32:43 Like it, it, we were responsible with gene. Like we were raised doing lecture demonstrations for schools throughout the state of North Carolina before we started performing nationally and then eventually internationally. Right. But that's ne that's something that never goes away. So everyone in the company has to memorize these particular talks that are, that have to do with tap dance history that introduce the different dancers or dances. Sorry. And, you know, we would even, he let us help him come up with the set list that we would do at specific schools, because there were different time limits for each school. Right. There's different floor surface. There's different things that will work and won't work there, you know? And so we learned like constantly and we're involved constantly. We carried things to, and from, we planned, we helped with, I mean, like it was just especially in the early days of the company, like we literally, and, you know, as, as Jean will always say, we took class side by side at these tap festivals.
Speaker 2 00:33:31 So he would study with us and then remind us of something that someone had said in class mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, later in the year in order to synthesize this stuff that we would learn over the summer. Like he, so I say like a lot of just my interest in comfortability with, but also like firm belief in being a part of the service that supports an organization is deeply rooted in that experience. And of course also both my folks who worked doggedly for the things that they were passionate about, they nothing was below them. Nothing was ever below Jean, nothing was below us. Mm-hmm <affirmative> we were artists and we were also in service. Um, and there is this kind of like unique, I guess, charge also of my particular generation of tap dancer, where, you know, tap dancer where we are 100% in service of the form in part, because we were given so much before our elders passed.
Speaker 2 00:34:24 Right. So, um, and part of that service is pursuing your voice as an individual, as being a unique artist and, and, and being, you know, the, the continuing to try to be the best technician you could possibly be. I mean, and, and, you know, uh, so everything you just mentioned, like those kinds of things, like, of course, and especially whenever you start your own thing, you do every damn thing at the beginning <laugh> and sometimes for way too long, um, you know, so you, and whether or not you knew how you learned how, you know, mm-hmm <affirmative> it's. Yeah. So, uh, I hope that sort, that answered that particular chunk of, of thoughts.
Speaker 0 00:35:00 It totally, it totally does. Which is now like, shifting me into a different kind of question, which I'm always curious, like about how people work and how specifically, how organisms work, whether it's like right in the Heights or the seaweed sisters, or Dorn stance at Jacob's pillow, like in any, any like little moment of a thing, because it's always a balancing act, right? You don't want to do all the things because you're working laterally because you're believing trickle out, not trickle down. Um, you don't, you don't wanna trickle out so far that you're spread too thin and are no longer useful in any one of those that you were trying to do. Um,
Speaker 2 00:35:39 Absolutely.
Speaker 0 00:35:40 And you also don't wanna be like, you know, the great dictator whose people are afraid of and, and you can see it, you can smell it, those performances. I, I can feel, although they're great. Like I, I'm thinking specifically about west side story and Jerome Robbins and how dancers lived with like the fear in them. Right. And yes, that made great dance, but I've also seen that really backfire. Yeah. Okay. Let me back up. Here we go. So thanks to you. I was introduced virtually to Kaita Griffith who taught an incredible workshop virtually. I think she's still doing it. I hope she's still doing it for dance educators. It's called roots, rhythm and dance. Uh, no roots rhythm, race and dance. R three D is what it's called. I will link to it in the show notes. And, um, the program helps dance educators take a holistic approach to teaching dance in a way that does not ignore the very obvious facts of our history, especially for tap and hip hop, which are black art forms. And so this program helped give me the words to explain that and the confidence to approach it. And you a video from you was a part of that, of, of her. I think it was a six week program. And you talked about how one of your, um, works the blues, the blues project.
Speaker 2 00:37:07 Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 0 00:37:08 Um, how it, despite how you wanted it to be presented, it got whitewashed in the press, in the marketing, in the publication of this thing, right. You turn into the boss in defense of your team, not against your team, because when that happened, you were the neck that was on the chopping block and yours was the voice that had to go out and correct, or make the emails, right. That helped fix the wrong, the thing that went wrong. So, right. Do, do you wanna talk at all or catch people up? I don't know how I could better explain the yeah. Oh, no. Happened with the blues
Speaker 2 00:37:43 Book. I love speak a little bit. Oh yeah. I mean, so many things happened and a lot of it also, I mean, it was such a, you know, I mean, incredibly unique and incredibly powerful work. Um, and also like, I, I've never made more mistakes in my life in relationship to that show in part due. And, and this is not by any means and excuse, but like literally due to my own experience, um, my lack of understanding, my lack of awareness and I, I mean, I was just excited for the world to experience this show, um, in collaboration with Derek Kay grant do Misha and Toshi Regan. So Derek Kay grant myself, do Misha. We co choreographed this work, Toshi Regan composed the music and the four of us are the, you know, the collaborative creative team for the work. Right. That is something I never knew I needed to put as Diane Walker would say on front street when communicating about, um, things like press Marquis mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 00:38:45 Like all, like I was, I had a really like powerful and important wake up call from Derek and Doha because Toshi in part, because of her experience and her in her world made sure as soon as, um, we first started touring this work, it was being toured in concert dance in the concert dance realm. Right. And, uh, it was do's dance and the blues project and Toshi Reagan was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, no, no, this is do's dance and be Dorn stance and big lovely and the blues project. And I go, oh right. Of course. Let me fix that. You know, like, yes, you're absolutely right. But I, you know, I, I didn't even like negotiate. I mean, to granted you have a booking agent and this was my first time ever touring anything. And so the booking agent is just interfacing with these different people, granted that God bless this one person.
Speaker 2 00:39:32 Um, she was eventually fired from that agency. And like, we lost thousands upon thousands of dollars because of things that she told me were gonna be in the contract and weren't, and she had the contract. Like, I, it was insane, like, like there's so many layers of <laugh> stake making surrounding this original, like major touring push for the company. And of course it was with a huge band and guest artists. Like I created a lot of different work that just lived under my creative umbrella. And we had done those things in a lot of different places. But first time with the booking agent, first time touring with like a huge band. And each of the people in the band are also their own band leaders, right? Two soloists that are two of the best type dancers on the planet who are also the co-creators like I dropped every damn ball.
Speaker 2 00:40:15 And, but what was devastating about it is the implications that it had culturally. And so to learn and Toshi, you know, would go look up, uh, you know, I wasn't even, I didn't go to the websites of these different presenting organizations. I had so much to do. I'd go to bed with 75 unrated emails from that day and would be behind constantly. And like, she, I, it wasn't until she was like, Michelle, they are advertising this show with images of you and Misha. This is a black show. We need images of us. It could be you, it could be me, it could be ESHA could be anybody, but not this piece that you won an award for that is not on this tour. They're whitewashing the look of this. And so that's the first thing I learned to go. Okay. And I had to write and write again and write, again, some of these organizations to get them to change the images on their website and then, you know, print materials go out.
Speaker 2 00:41:03 But then we need to make sure things are changed in programs. Right? Like, and, and, and so I, I just, I just kept learning the lesson over and over again. I didn't learn it once and go, oh, right now, you know what, let me take 15 steps back and think, how do we need, how how's, what is the thing that we need to do to cover all our bases? I just kept putting out fires and that, and that's also, and I, and that, I honestly like to bring it back to sort of the larger context of what we are discussing. And this is your theme of this particular month in this podcast, like in pursuing excellence and in pursuing your ultimate integrity, you have to have a holistic picture. You can't put out fires. You can't just go, oh, my skill SETSS week here. Let me just dabble in that.
Speaker 2 00:41:46 Oh, oh, I need to pick this up. Oh gosh, this is, you need to have a look at all of it and try, and, and then it's sort of like, um, folks that are now, everything is like done for us, but people that are interested in maximizing their cross training in a half an hour or an hour, you do moves that are multifaceted. They engage your core, they work your polymetric, you know, side of things. And you're stabilizers. Like, let's do everything at once, right. And that's the kind of, this is the way that we wanna train. And this is the way that you have to look at, you know, putting literally your best foot forward at all times. And so the, the, what is the most devastating thing to me is that I failed my friends, right? Failing the work, failing the work is the, is also, is also incredibly devastating, but that I failed my friends that I failed Derek, that I failed ESHA.
Speaker 2 00:42:42 That's devastating that it took years for them to be properly credited in the title of the work. Right. Um, and those things were oversights and that is even, that's even worse. And, and that is, that's rooted in a, my ignorance B you know, my, uh, my energy towards something that, yeah, the exciting thing was to share the work with audiences. Right. So you're talking about that person. That's looking for the gig. Mm-hmm <affirmative> now we weren't necessarily looking for the gig. Tap dances had never been in these spaces in this way. This was very important to us as a culture, but even more like that's, I guess what I'm trying to say here is that's even more of a reason for me to have been that on top of it then. Mm. Um, and so, you know, and, and I think the one thing that, you know, I can continue to say from this is like, I I'm, I'm learning constantly, but take, I I'm so much better at taking a step back now in times when it has to do with the way other people are being received, um, treated, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 00:43:46 Like things that I would take for granted and also I'm someone that's too trusting. Um, I was gonna say it, yeah, that's a problem. That's a, and I, and I acknowledge that, and that is root also rooted in my privilege. Right. That I, that I've had that experience, that I haven't been burned so many times that I distrust everybody. It's, I've gotten a, actually a handful of like hard knocks since then. <laugh> so in, in life and in, uh, business and also in relationships. So I am much more aware of those really harsh and negative forces than I think, um, we are all like, incredibly aware right now, as far as like the divisive and really hate filled, um, energy that is kind of being pushed into our culture. And I think we need to, what we do in is hopefully part of what diffuses that. Right. Yeah. Um, before we start like another, what could be like, you know, lifelong conversation about how we change the course of history right now, but that's, uh, for another talk <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:44:44 Yeah. For how about that? Um, I will link to some work, um, some video clips from the blues project, and I'll add some links to the website and stuff, but I do want people to know ESHA and Derek and specifically Toshi who might be a name that a lot of dance or choreographer listeners don't know, um, uh, is a vocalist and band member band leader, I suppose I would say the
Speaker 2 00:45:08 Leader, singer, songwriter, guitar, player, musician, she's a composer. Yes. Everything. I mean, she's an advocate for change and she's really, she's a, a real profit for change in activism. And, and what I'll say about Toshi, I mean, this is why I'll give you like a, a little, a, a brief history as to why, um, I brought these particular people together and, and it was just to, to tell really an abstract, but hopefully, um, deeply pervasive, like abstract narrative of, and I mean that, in that you can feel the essence of something without it having told a story that you can describe. Does that make sense? Like, I really wanted the relationship between Tapps and the blues as two of the earliest forms of immigrated and forced migrated America, right? So not native American forms, but these are the earliest forms of quote America, right. And people often, um, you know, communicate that tap dance and jazz music are, you know, they really grew alongside each other and they did, but this what roots tap dance and blues music in the earliest, you know, period of our culture is that they were both born of the plantation.
Speaker 2 00:46:20 And to tell this story and to, and to tell the way it moved through our history and guided who we are culturally, as Americans, these forms, um, I knew that very specific legacy and tradition bearers needed to be a part of creating this and really Doha and Derek, like both are a part of a very specific legacy actually, where you're from Los Angeles being Paul and Arlene Kennedy, and the Kennedy legacy also dates back to Mildred Kennedy, their mom, who was out of Boston, who taught Diane Walker when she was a kid and people don't all know this story, but it is deeply connected. Um, and they are, they're just a, they are both a part of this particular tradition that is, um, embodied by so few people, Joseph, Joseph, and Joseph Wiggin, both studied there as well. Chris, Christopher Bratton, there's so many different folks that study there. Um, and Toshi is the daughter of original SNCC freedom singers. So student nonviolent coordinating committee. Yes, yes. And so her and her and, and her mom is the founder of sweet honey and the rock. Um, and so, and if you need to look anything of, or we need leave some links,
Speaker 0 00:47:30 Oh, there will be all the show, all links. Yeah. All the show, note links. Thank you for that. Um,
Speaker 2 00:47:34 So that's why I say all of that history and, and also the sort of the legacy that this show's carrying was really important. Um, and yeah, and I think that, that, you know, often striving for, you know, something that is, you think is the most, one of the most important things to share. You constantly let yourself down as a creator leader, anything because you hold this thing to be so much higher and greater than yourself, of course, as an individual. And how could we even this small group of people collectively honor this tradition that bears millions, you know, if not billions of, you know, energies and spirits and names and unnamed, unnamed beings, you know,
Speaker 0 00:48:11 I, I think honestly, that's one thing that your work to me does very well, is it embodies this massive reverence and this abstraction of like, it's very rarely have I walked outta your show and been like, I don't know, this is a little on the nose that, you know, the message was like kinda heavy handed. <laugh>, it's all, it's extremely artful. And I think, I, I know, especially out here in Los Angeles, people love story. We love awesome story characters in story. I love
Speaker 2 00:48:48 A story and I love
Speaker 0 00:48:49 At beginning middle end characters and, and you do, and they're there, but they're not so over you're your a, you make smart work for smart audiences. And I'm sorry that sometimes your booking agents aren't as smart as you and your worker. <laugh>, that's just unfortunate.
Speaker 2 00:49:06 I appreciate
Speaker 0 00:49:07 It. Okay. So I'm, I'm still like wrapping my head around this, but I've had some really great, like people that I admire and really look up to weigh in on this difference between being confident in being a great leader and being arrogant. And I know there are tons of people who have talks and talks and talks on this, but I like to keep things really simple. And I think that, um, confidence says I'm great. And arrogance says, I'm better than you and anybody who has, you know, been witnessed to your creative process or seen one of your works on stage. You are great. My friend and the company you keep is excellent, but the way you show up and support, defend, empower your team certainly does not say I am better than you. Um, so thank you for being an example of what a great leader is, who is not an asshole. We love it. Um,
Speaker 2 00:50:02 I appreciate it.
Speaker 0 00:50:03 Yeah. I, I, I wanted to really like lay that down and just like put a pin in that. Um, now one of the things, I'm not sure this is, this is where I would like to land, cuz I think that when we've had a conversation about mastery, we've talked a lot about what it means to in general, learn from your droppings of the balls and be a good person and be respectful and work hard and do the jobs and lift the people. Right. And I think there's a word for that. And I think the word is honor <laugh>. Mm. Um, and you gave a quote in your, in the video that you made for Karina's course, you said, honor is the gift one gives themself. And I think honor is a, a, a beautiful thing and a, and a powerful idea because you don't have to wait to achieve mastery to have it. And I think a lot of like a lot of my work that I did for organizing the dance community is about having some self respect, have some honor dignity and your value in your work and, and you know, your, what you contribute to all of this. Um, so I wondered if you could tell me who said that if you remember honor is the gift one gives themself and how did that come to you? How did that quote come to you?
Speaker 2 00:51:29 That big shock that it came to me through my dad from a film actually, and I believe it's from Rob Roy, and I believe that, you know, the original incarnation it is honor is the gift man gives himself. Of course, very,
Speaker 0 00:51:44 Oh
Speaker 2 00:51:44 Yes. Um, barely cast rectal tests, film work. I don't know. I don't want mean to say that about rapper. I don't know. It actually might not probably
Speaker 0 00:51:52 Not, but we, we like honor is the gift one gives themself
Speaker 2 00:51:56 Themselves or oneself. Yes. Um, yeah, another one actually. So speaking of, I mean, I don't wanna derail what you're, what you wanna say about honor as a bedrock for this kind of pursuit. And that, that with honor, what I imagine might be a part of your thinking is that with honor comes excellence without arrogance let's hope, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>, mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and something, I think another thing that my dad has also shared with me, and, um, this is from someone who was writing or speaking about elite swimmers, um, I believe his last name is Shala. Um, so I don't know whether this is a colleague of my dad, there's someone that he encountered or shared a speaking circuit with, or, you know, I'm not entirely sure, but the idea that excellence is mundane, that excellence is right. Think about what it takes to be excellent.
Speaker 0 00:52:53 Mm.
Speaker 2 00:52:54 Right. The pursuit of something daily.
Speaker 0 00:53:00 Oh yes. That's
Speaker 2 00:53:01 Such a long period of time. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so and so mundane, not, not to, to speak ill of the thing that we do daily forever, but that practice, that this kind of commitment to something that this kind of commitment to this pursuit of something mm-hmm <affirmative> must be daily, must become Monday, must be not. And I, and not in, again, not with the footnote, a, a lot of the energy that comes with that word, but, um, it, it makes it such a humbling and humble pursuit. Mm. I think, um, and you know, I think this is also, we, I, the only thing I wanted to say is like that we are part of these traditions where we met these folks that were innovators mm-hmm <affirmative> and true masters of our forms that we are often, you know, are kind of, we stand on their shoulders.
Speaker 2 00:53:50 Mm-hmm <affirmative> that we are also in service of this form. And I, there is so much to pursuing something that is so much bigger than yourself, um, and that it is a never ending pursuit, you know? And that, that is another thing that Jean also taught me. And, you know, a lot of his students that to stay whimsical, to have a beginner's mind, to never stop learning. I mean, these are things that, you know, will continue to not just make you a better technician, you know, you know, PR you know, someone that practices a particular tradition, but an a, a better artist and a better person, a better spirit through which these things will come to, to pass or come to place.
Speaker 0 00:54:32 Hmm. My friend, you're dropping the heavy gold nuggets here, <laugh> at the end. Um, and I do think that that's a lovely place to wrap up, but I also can't help myself from continuing to talk. So I'm gonna Le I want one more. I love it. I'm gonna give one more, um, quote, cuz you're that L last little bit reminded me of a, a Ray crock quote that became kind of famous to me via one of my huge art influences, Tom Sachs, um, van nice that one of his studio interns made a film at the time. This is like many, many, many years ago. It's called 10 bullets and 10 bullets is, it might be my favorite thing on YouTube actually. Uh, maybe that and like some really good Ty ambos or go-go brothers locking videos is of there too. But anyways, I love it in 10 bullets, they, uh, they, they talk about persistence and, um, van reads this quote from Ray crock that I think is brilliant.
Speaker 0 00:55:40 It says, press on nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not nothing in the world is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not. Unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not. The world is full of educated derelicts, persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. Wow. Also written by a man for a man's perspective. But I love this idea. Uh, for me, I put a lot of pressure on myself because I'm surrounded by people who are great and I expect for myself to be great. I, I think I've become good if not great because of that expectation. But also I would rather still be here in 50 years, still doing this thing, still enjoying my body and the dance community. I, I would rather that than be like, oh, who are the greatest masters of our time? Dana Wilson.
Speaker 0 00:56:50 Like, I, I love the persistence part. I love the determination part. Yeah. And in my definition of what a master is, those are built in. Um, but it's worth saying, I think for a lot of the listeners of this podcast who are on their journey, they're on the pursuit, the, the notion is just like, keep going, just be persistent. Don't stop. Regardless of the education that is available to you right now, continue to pursue, regardless of the amount of talent that you have right now continue to pursue. Of course go find you some great training, go find yourself a great coach, but like continue onward forward one day, one step at a time. Um, that's that to me is an honorable act.
Speaker 2 00:57:35 Yeah. It's essential. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that's awesome. Dana.
Speaker 0 00:57:37 Yeah. You're awesome Michelle do you're. Thank you. You're awesome. You're
Speaker 2 00:57:42 Are you kidding?
Speaker 0 00:57:42 Awesome. You're so awesome.
Speaker 2 00:57:44 Thank you so much for having me listen. I can't believe this flew by like we yeah. More soon. Yeah, please.
Speaker 0 00:57:50 Yes. More soon. Um, thank you again for being here. You are excellent. I will talk to you soon.
Speaker 2 00:57:55 Thanks, Dana. Bye.
Speaker 0 00:58:03 All right, my friend, what did you think? <laugh> I love everything about this episode. I'm so grateful that Michelle shared the lessons, her parents and early teachers shared with her. I am in awe of her reverence for her craft and her community. I truly, I think Michelle and her company are such a fabulous example of that center. Circle of the ven diagram, where you honor tradition and push boundaries. It's like past meets future. I just, I think she and her dancers do that so well, honoring the tradition and pushing the edge, leaving a legacy. I'm just oof. I am so smitten with that. Um, I feel ready to bring more healthy competition into my work and into my life. And I'm ready to be sensitive about how I lead. Um, I'm, I'm, I'm inspired to lead with honor everywhere I go. And I hope you are two.
Speaker 0 00:59:12 That is it for me today. My friends keep it funky. I'll talk to you later. This podcast was produced by me with the help of many music by max Winnie logo and brand design by Bree res and big thanks to Riley Higgins, our executive assistant and editor also massive, thanks to you. The mover, who is no stranger to taking action. So go take action. I will not cannot stop you from downloading episodes or leaving a review into rating. I will not ban you from my online store for spending your hard earned money on the cool merch and awesome programs that await you. There. I will, 100% not stop you from visiting words that move me.com. If you wanna talk with me, work with me and make moves with the rest of the words that move me community. Oh, and also I will not stop you from visiting the Dana wilson.com. If you're curious about all the things that I do that are not words that move me related. All right, my friend, keep it funky. I'll talk to you soon.
