Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] A little less dance. And it's like, for sure or no, someone said 80% less dance. And I was like, huh.
[00:00:09] So what?
[00:00:16] Hello. Hello, my friend. I'm Dana. This is Words that Move Me. And right now, as we speak, I am wearing navy blue, black, gray, and brown. Wrap your head around that. And if you're just listening, you now have double the reason to go over and watch the podcast on YouTube, because you probably want to see what that looks like.
[00:00:42] Yeah, my pants have two tone legs, and that is a gift. Thank you, Verity and daughters, we're back.
[00:00:53] Okay, friends, this is obviously a special episode. Other than the fact that my wardrobe is unusual. Today you will get an earful of every single guest that I've had this entire season. And by season, I think I mean year. I don't remember exactly how I break down the seasons we've been playing with format a little bit, but you're going to get to hear from every single one of my guests from this past year. Right? It is year. Okay. Which is a lot of really brilliant, very capable people. And today you're going to be hearing a not so typical conversation with them. So I'm stoked to share it. But first, let's do some wins. My win, my friends, is that my dear friends Jillian Myers and Riley Higgins have convinced me to take a deep dive into reading some fiction.
[00:01:50] So I'm gonna stop binging only Murders and the Bear and start reading some fantasy novels. Guys, get ready. Cause I think this is gonna do good things for the podcast. I think that reading has a way of activating the imagination in a way that binging Netflix does not. So that's what I'm celebrating. Beginning my deep dive into science fiction. Fantasy. Is that what you would call it? What would you call it? More fantasy. More fantasy than science fiction. Great. I think I'm. I think I'm in the right spot. Romance, romance, Fantasy. Romance. Fantasy. Fiction, here I come. If that's not a win, I don't know what it is. Now you go tell me what's going on in your world.
[00:02:44] Yay.
[00:02:46] All right. Congratulations. I am so glad you're winning.
[00:02:51] All right, now let's jump into this. Every single year on the podcast, I ask my guests a bonus question. It is the same question for every single guest. And at the end of the season, I make a mashup episode out of that question. So today, you will be hearing the question of the year from all of my guests from 2024. And I never found a really quick and clean way to phrase It. I think I phrased this slightly different to everyone. So going back on what I just told you, that is, I asked them the exact same question. I didn't ask them the exact same wording, but the sentiment is the same. I think when you get high level super accomplishers on a platform talking about their work, they wind up talking about their best work and the work that went well, the work that they're known for. And that's great. But I think we have as much or more to learn from their losses than their wins. So this year, all year long, I've been asking my guests about the projects that fumbled, dare I say fails, things that did not go well on set, and whether or not they turned into silver linings down the road was irrelevant. I simply asked to hear about what didn't work, what didn't go well. So, listeners, get your pens and paper ready. Who says that? Someone who was born in 1986. That's who. Someone who grew up taking actual notes.
[00:04:23] Get ready to learn so much from the not so great work of all of our guests from 2024. I'll see you next time. You have to answer the question. Oh, ah, okay. Will you ask it to me? I think it'd be better if you asked it to me. Tell the listeners. Wait, I'm gonna film you asking it to me. I'm gonna say it wrong. Okay, go tell the listeners about a job that didn't go according to plan. And, and if you learned anything from it.
[00:05:02] Okay, tell you about something that did not go well.
[00:05:10] There's so many.
[00:05:13] It's. Now I understand the position all my guests are in, which is like, I don't want to get in trouble.
[00:05:18] Okay, my friends. So a time that things did not go well and it really felt like they weren't going well for months. Like it felt like they ended bad. But of course, it's not over until you're six feet under. So I think it was for the best. But that's partially because of my rose colored glasses that I put on every morning. About a year ago, a contract came my way. That was for a camp that I've worked with for 20 years.
[00:05:54] A camp that I trust and love. And I'm not. I'm, I'm. I'll be honest. In the past, I've kind of just let the agents read the paperwork. And I think with these people, there's. Everything's cool. There's nothing shady going on here. This is great. But this one I had been given a heads up to. I knew that there was something fishy about this agreement and that people weren't signing it. And so I took a closer look myself. I found a lot of things to be concerned about. First of which is that usually NDAs or non disclosure agreements are kept entirely separate from work for hire agreements. And this one was a combination of the two. And it combined and conflated a whole bunch of things like what I'm allowed to talk about, like who owns my work. And those are the things that most NDAs and work for hire agreements discuss. But this one was aggressive and sloppy and the writing seemed one size fits all. But my position was one very specific position. And so I hired a lawyer to help me understand exactly what about this contract was felt so wrong and what about it was so dangerous. And my lawyer pointed out to me that maybe the most important thing that was a red flag here in terms of this contract was that if I or the other entity should break this contract and we go to court, I would be responsible for half of those court fees. So although there were some things in the contract that were legitimately unenforceable, like hard for anybody to prove either way, I'm being coded in cryptic. Sorry, but here's a great example. Contract says I performer am not allowed to talk about.
[00:07:52] I wish I had it right in front of me.
[00:07:55] Anything regarding the artist or artist parties, which this contract defines as friends, family, acquaintances or associates of the artist.
[00:08:11] Number one question is how the fuck am I supposed to know who's artist party? Are they going to walk around in little party hats? Because that would be helpful. But I'm not allowed to talk about the artist or artist party.
[00:08:23] Now here's where that may become unenforceable or unlawful. Let's say member of artist party and I go on a date and member of artist party touches me inappropriately or says something inappropriate per the terms of this contract, I would not be allowed to say anything to anyone about that. So unlawful meaning like the laws of the state of California would supersede this contract language, but I would have to go to court in order to do that and I would be responsible for half of those legal fees if I were to tell the cops about the thing that happened with this person that's in breach of my contract. And even if it isn't illegal in the state of California, if I broke this contract and they took me to court for it, I would have to pay half. I'm not going to sign that thing. There are several other traps in that contract language that I was morally Strongly, very opposed to. And so I did not sign.
[00:09:31] The light at the end of the tunnel is that the contract the rest of the dancers wound up signing wound up being slightly better than the one I was presented with, because I, along with a handful of other dancers, were not afraid of a sticky situation getting stickier before it got cleaner. And so I thank my dance counterparts for sticking with me. I thank my legal team for helping me through a professional split up that was more expensive than my actual divorce.
[00:10:09] And that's kind of what we deal with behind the scenes, my friends. That's the stuff that nobody's talking about. But since I didn't sign that contract, I can.
[00:10:19] So if you find yourself in what feels like sticky, unsafe or unlawful contract terms, reach out. Because I've got some people in place and I've learned some lessons that really helped me get through that one.
[00:10:33] That's my answer.
[00:10:36] Okay, my friends, now that I have rolled up my sleeves and done that hard work. That was hard. I have so much more compassion for the rest of our guests. Now, please enjoy all of our guests telling you about the shit they don't usually talk about. Enjoy.
[00:11:01] Just felt right. I do have one that's coming to mind. I don't know if it is the, like, the. Because, yeah, I don't really. I've been lucky with my experiences and, like, the ones early on, obviously, are always a little bit funky because you say yes to everything. But then I'm also, like, mentally knowing that I'm getting into things that aren't going to be the most professional. Yes. Or have any benefit. So I'm like, I can't really count those. There was one that I think. I didn't like it because they did take advantage of us and I overlooked something stupid and contract detail. It was a contract thing. Am I allowed to say names? You can if you want. Yeah. I don't really care. So it was a John Legend music video. I'm saying that because he's done it before. Because when I put this online just to, like, for my friends and for the dance community to maybe think about things, other dancers came forward and be like, oh, he did that to us last time we did a music video. So it was a music video.
[00:11:57] I actually didn't audition for it. They just called me in the day before through an agent, whatever, and it was listed as a music video. I saw the brief being like, it's a Christmas thing. You're just a girl. There was only, like, five of us in it, and it wasn't Dance heavy. But we were like a. I was just more like patrons of a Christmas thing. Okay. So I. It was listed as music video from my dance agent as a music video. I knew the rate up front and I'm like, okay, it's a music video rate. Like barely Dances Alliance. That's fine. So we get there and then we sign the release form, which is normal.
[00:12:31] And then that was it. And then we do the shoot. And then all of a sudden it's on TV as an LG commercial, national commercial. It's also a print job. It was like printed in stores was photos of us. It was on website, social media campaign, everything. So then I was like, shame. What? This was a $500 music video that I did, and now it's a national commercial and I'm sag. And so I'm just like, that is who knows how many tens of thousands of dollars that and for lgbt. Because now you have non competes with other. Like you can't do a Sony commercial and you can't do a. Technically. Yeah, yeah. So what we all overlooked on set, we tried to fight, but couldn't because it was a thing. And this is what John Legend's camp. He probably has no idea. What they've done in the past is they shoot a commercial and then they just list it as a music video and say that they can use the footage for all promo. Like, so we. Our release form was like, this is a music video shoot. Fine print. Like this footage can also be used for promo, which is kind of standard in a way because you think it's music video promo. Promo, like for the album, for the song. And it was his song, but he was in collaboration with LG and it was a Christmas commercial for lg. And yeah, so I really. I hated that. We tried to fight it with SAG and obviously we couldn't. We signed it because you agreed. Yeah, but they've done that in the past where they knowingly shoot a commercial. And what sucks is every music video do, there's always a. A branded placement. Product basement. Yeah, yeah. That's a given. So when we walked in and I see John Legend getting a photo shoot done with a fridge, I was like, whatever. Ah, yeah. I knew that LG was the. The thing. They had appliances. I was in the kitchen scene, so it was like appliances. But I didn't get any photos done with that or anything like that. So I just thought that that was the standard product placement in the music video. The equivalent of a Beats or a Bose speaker. Every music video there's a. There's a sponsored brand, Kia, whatever. There's always something. So that was that. I. But, yeah, then thinking back, I'm like, oh, my God. That was just. It was an LG commercial. Yeah. So that kind of sucked. And then knowing that he was sharing that, that's something to be looking out for. I don't know what I could have done to prevent it in the moment, because you know how, like. Yeah. But. Yeah, so it was just a thing where it's like, wow, that is a great loophole for them. Yeah. For talent to just book everyone under sag or not. Not sag, but under. Yeah. Non Union. Yeah. Whoa. That is super shady. Okay. Thank you for sharing. Yeah. Most of my.
[00:15:17] Oh, my gosh. How could this happen? Jobs happen in China, and I think it's because there's so few regulations on how things are run out there, especially with productions and television. Oh, man. So I was working on a television show out there, and when you're hired in China, you aren't hired as a position. Typically you're hired as whatever they can get you to do before you pass out. So, like. Well, because you're a fee and you're ours. Yes, exactly. And that's what they pay extremely well. Right. So that's what draws you in in the first place. But then they're like, as long as your eyes are open, you're ours. So. And sometimes the job requires you to have your eyes open for almost two days straight without sleeping. So there was several instances. I mean, I could go on and on because I spent almost four seasons out there of this show. And I was actually creative directing. That was actually the first creative directing role I took. It wasn't for a tour, but it was for a show. And so there was, like, one instance where it's January, it's bitter cold in China, which we're in a warehouse where there's no bathrooms. So, like, people are just going in the forest whenever they can. It's a huge. I mean, we have a celebrity there who is the Bieber of China. So it's. It's. It. You'd imagine there'd be some way to facilitate. They didn't. They. They cut every corner possible in the rafters. We had some people fall off with lights. So we actually had injuries. Oh, my God. So people were doing, like, pyro and, like, handhelding the. The pyro. Because there's no. There's no one rigging or anything. There's nothing. It is just complete chaos.
[00:16:47] And.
[00:16:49] And I was Directing this video for this artist at the time. And there were so many moments where I was worried that the dancers themselves were going to shiver to death. So. So there was like certain points where I actually. We had to stop the filming. I was like, you have to put them in like three or four coats, give them like an hour and then bring them back because there's no way that they can move. They cannot move. And I've never seen. I mean conditions can be bad out here too. But what I saw there and the dancers just take it. I mean that's the one thing I will say about dancers across the entire world. I don't know anybody that will physically take more stress and physical depravity than dancers. Dancers will. Yeah. And we were up till like 7, 8 in the morning in this dirty warehouse with no place to go. There was definitely no place to change. Well, yeah. There was no back bathroom. It was.
[00:17:39] That sounds like the worst of the worst. It, it, it is the worst of the worst. And the thing is there's the high pressure. It's not. It's so strange too. Cuz you think there was no money on the project. The show was heavily funded. Right. But if, if someone would accept a certain condition without complaining because they were get to be near a celebrity or they would take it and there's no regulation there. So. And they didn't have speakers, for instance, for the dancers. So what you would have is you'd have a little boombox that somebody brought. Yep. And we're just holding it up. Oh man. So I think if you could think of the worst of all scenarios in China. It exists. It's happening right now. Wow. And I don't love that. Yeah. I mean, I'd imagine things are slowly going to improve because as basically what's happening in China right now is a lot of dancers are getting more notoriety and therefore they can start to demand more power. Dynamic is shifting. It is shifting all over the world. Yeah. And I think that's wonderful. I think they're just later than a lot of other countries. So when, when I was there, I was at the precipice where all the dancers basically were doing it only for the fact that they get to be near certain celebrity status and have associational power and nothing else. I mean like on camera they looked great. What was happening off camera was insane. Whoa. I mean we had. There was certain times. I mean, I'm just gonna throw this out there. There was kids who were competing at a certain point before the government came and said that Kids couldn't compete because of something else. But kids were going up there and they were there till 7, 8 in the morning doing solo. Like we had. These kids were break dancing, doing like the craziest moves. I mean, like the craziest power moves you've ever seen at 7 in the morning. They hadn't slept in like 30 hours and they were going up there battling and they were like, seven.
[00:19:17] It is wild. It is wild. And in your position, you couldn't speak on any of that or you thought if you did, you'd be. No, the thing is they, they basically. It was actually interesting. You know, we. We would say a lot of things, but we are kind of kept at distance because we are English speakers. So basically. So what would happen is I've felt that in on other gigs before. They don't want us to talk to anybody because I think one for financial reasons. But they also don't want anyone to communicate who could possibly. Cause like, for instance, if the dancers are really not getting paid at all, they don't want to know. Like, they don't want them to know that they are not getting paid or they're not getting a power. So they would literally keep us in a room. Oh, completely. Whoa. That is so up. It was bad. And honestly, the first year we didn't notice. It was the second year that we started being like, hey, we need to get the. So we would constantly yell at people and be like, hey, get them somewhere to sleep. At least if you're going to have them go up at 7am, let them go home, sleep all day and then come at seven in the morning and they're like, yeah, but we don't know when we're going to need that. So there was like a. It's almost like an entire train is moving and then you're just doing this. It's putting your hand out in front. Yeah, you're putting your hand out in front of the train. You can definitely put your hand out and it doesn't hurt you to do it. We did it a bunch, but they just slap it out the way and then you just. They just keep going. Wow.
[00:20:32] Like I said, I think that things are slowly moving naturally to have a different dynamic. But as far as, like, conditions, nothing has compared to that. Well, but that was a rough one for sure. Whoa. Thank you for sharing. It's a good lesson in gratitude, like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. For the things that dancers have accomplished. Yeah, it's. It's come a long way through organization and through like collective bargaining. And there are certain things that, that are just a given now. Yes. A gig that did not go well. And why I'm trying to really think of something that stood out that didn't go well. You know why that's a hard one to. For me because I'm so like, with things, like, it's kind of like if it doesn't work, I don't necessarily be like, it doesn't stop you in your tracks. Oh, my God. It's just like, I think it's just more like when things are more frustrating for me. Like, a job can be like, really intense and just a lot of things going on and it gets real, like, yeah, yeah. But nothing, nothing stands out as being like, ooh, bad gig or bad work. Like, that was bad work. No, not on a job. I would say that. I would say that. I would say like, bad work in the sense of like, you know, I would think that can fall in. In the sense of just like early creative process and just me being like, don't ever do that stuff again. Like, for real. Like, that kind of. But when it comes to like a job wise, I think it's not necessarily bad work. I think it comes more into just like, yeah, this. You know, I would just say there's an artist that I. There's an artist that I did work with and they were highly, highly, highly, like, micromanageable. And I would, I would consider that a kind of like. Because I don't. I didn't work well being micromanaged. No. Yeah. And you're not. I'm kind of like, you know, tell me what you want to do. You want to collaborate, you want to work together, you want to be cool. But if you tell me to do it and I'm doing it, don't come right behind me and then do it or cut it off and just be like, oh, I got somebody, this person, they're going to join you. I'd be like, but you just told me to do it. So I'm going over here and I'm doing it. So, okay, why are you. And that's. And then that. Because in a creative process that jokes me up and I get really frustrated in that moment. I'm just like, are you going to let me do it or not? You can chop it, but let me do it. You can chop it. You can say you hate it. I don't really care. Let me get it out. But let me get it out. But don't be here while I'm doing it. Nice. Like that. So I Would. So I would totally say, like, that would probably be the job that. Yeah. You know, that stands out like an artist who shall remain nameless. But, yeah. Yeah. This particular job was, like, some of my highest highs and some of my definite lows. Okay, what. What did you learn from the lows?
[00:23:34] Oh, so many things that I learned from the lows. I learned was the first time I had to realize that there might be a moment where, because I give, like, probably most of us do, a million percent, and I give all of myself at all costs, no matter what. And I realized, like, oh, this isn't healthy for me in this environment because I'm being not received in a way where me giving that much is positive. Yeah. And I received quite a bit from several people.
[00:24:13] I received some love from people, and then from the same people, I received a lot of.
[00:24:19] What's the word I say? Abuse is not the right word. It was not abuse. It was, like, not fantastic treatments sometimes.
[00:24:29] Yeah. Over a long period of time. Behavior. Just bad behavior over a long period of time.
[00:24:35] And so it helped me moving forward when I'm in a position where there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen, because I was one of many cooks in the kitchen.
[00:24:44] I was in a supervising choreographer role. And so there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen. So it's having very clear conversations about, this is what I'm doing, this is what you're doing. This is. These are the expectations of these different roles. And then also the. I know it's so dumb, but the not taking things personal is like.
[00:25:07] Like the artist on that job who I respect more than life itself, and still to this day, respect this person, like, so much. In this job, I saw things and did things I never would have seen or done. Learned so much, got to do all this. Cool.
[00:25:21] But, like, the. The. The fire that I was thrown into for ish. And that person was like, let's see how you do for a year, you know? And because. And because I. It's exhausting. Well. And because I am extremely stubborn, and I respected that job a lot, and I still do. I was like. I was like, wrong girl. You're not gonna break me, dude. Wrong fucking girl. Woof. So you took on the weight of the world for a year. Yeah. And when I was under. Under unnecessary pressures. Yeah. It was weird. Yeah. But it's okay because again, it was like this. And it was the first time where I was like, yo, what the fuck? I was like. Because my expectation going into it was something different. I was like, it's gonna be like this, you know. Oh, yeah. And. Yeah. And then I was like, wait, with this boob? What? What? You know, and so leaving that job, I had to be okay. Like, I would. They kindly called me back to do it again, and I was like, I kind of wasn't available, but you really, really weren't available. Yeah. So it was great that I kind of wasn't available. So I could, with love, be like, thanks for having me not available. Thank you. And it was tough because it was like, something I'd wanted to do since I was young girl.
[00:26:31] I know, I know. And I still like to this day, when it. When it comes up, I'm like, shit. Yeah, it's okay, though. Yeah. But tell me about a project or a work that you don't like and why you don't like it. Oh, my gosh. There's so. I mean, most of my stuff I don't like. I mean, there are lots of my routines I don't like that other people like. And I'm like, but that routine was like, what do you. Okay, what made it shift in your. In your eyes? Boring, predictable, redundant. Nothing new.
[00:27:02] And then there are a lot of jobs that lately have been terrible. Like, I think over the years from having. You know, there's just so many jobs that. That happen that are. That are just really bad. And I think it's important to say that because I think a lot of people are like, oh, I want to work. And especially for choreographers, a lot of people like, I want to be a choreographer. And it's like, it is not fun a lot of the time, or it starts out looking really fun. And then the me. And then more and more meetings go by, and the more and more budget cuts go by and the less and less time to rehearse, and then all of a sudden. Yeah. You land with a product that you're like, yeah. Or just the experience in general. Like, there could, you know, if you have. If you have a director that's not nice, if you have an artist who's not nice, there could just be a lot of, like. There's a lot of elements that can turn a job into something that's not fun. So I've had a lot of really not fun experiences on industry jobs lately that are just kind of like, what? What? And would you say that primarily because of personality clash or. Well, personality clash. And then as. As time goes by, of course the budgets get worse and the time you have to rehearse gets worse, but everybody wants something that's like iconic and legendary and you're like. And viral. And viral. Yeah. Okay. But you have like two hours to get that thing done. And I don't thrive in those kinds of situations. Some people do, but I don't thrive in that situation. So that's just. That's not very fun. So there, so there are like lots of things that creatively I'm like, I did not like that job. And also on a production end, I'm like, I did not like that job. Fair. Yeah, fair.
[00:28:34] Excuse you. Come here. Come on, tiny one. Did you get nappy? Are your legs sweaty? Oh, good. Stretch. Do the other one. Oh, so good. It's like something that didn't go well. A fail. A, a, A nasty. How much time we have? I feel like I have more fails than triumphs. Okay, tell me about a. A recent fail and what you learned from it.
[00:28:59] Well, I'm about to come out with my third special. Hell yeah. Congratulations. Which is why I wore purple. Because the vibe was purple. You know, Torta Fantasia and I did it in May of last year of 2023. Okay. And edited it like in the summer. And for some reason, you know when you look at your own shit and you're just like, oh my God, this could have been better. And then there's. Okay. There's always room for improvement as artists. I don't, I don't believe I've ever done anything perfect ever. No, I'm not interested in it exactly. And I. We edited it and like the way it's like shot is like not my favorite, like the, the quality. And that's just like not like a me thing. That's like a equipment thing. And I just kind of like. And so I've had it like in my dock of literally over a year and, and people are like, when are you gonna do another special? I'm like, I need to come out with the one that I already did. Like, and it's just my self saboteur, like my inner demons being like, this is not good enough. Like you. But wait, question. Why do you believe that you have to release the one you did before you do another one? Who told you that I concocted that in my head? You sure did. I did. I would love to do another show. Is that useful? Is it working out for you? Never. No. No. The demons, never. No. I mean, I just like I'm.
[00:30:25] This is me coaching real quick.
[00:30:29] If it isn't working out, try something else. If thinking this isn't up to par, but I have to Release it before I do another one. So I'm bottlenecked.
[00:30:38] And if that isn't generating the result that you want, which is to do another special, then find the thought that is the other special, which is, I learned a lot from number two.
[00:30:48] Let's get on board for number three and make sure that number two's lessons are good. And then eventually. So you could even hypothetically use bits from 2 totally in 3 instead of totally starting from scratch. Maybe 2 was actually pre 3.
[00:31:05] Maybe it was like 2.9, and 3 is, like, only exists because of 2.9.
[00:31:16] I don't know. I'm just here to say. I'm just here to say I was there for it, and I fucking loved it. You were. I want it to be out in the world, but if thinking that you have to release it is keeping you from doing number three, I really want to see number three. I want to see number three more than I want to re. See number two. Yeah. So if you're getting stifled by this thought that you have to put it out, I'm just here to ask, why do you think you have to put it out?
[00:31:40] I want to release it. There it is. Yeah. That's different. Yeah. Yeah. I want to put it out there in my. In my fantasy world because I like to live in my head a little bit. I'm a. I'm an air sign. So I. I love, like, you know, the full. Everything's total fantasy up for me. Like, full fantasy. Everything is thought out from my end. The colors, the. The set. Like, everything is so thought out that, like, I. I don't know why I can't get from, like, A to D without going through B and C. Sometimes I go to C and I go back to B, and then I'll go to D. Total. Like, I would love in my head. I loved my set that I did. I thought that, like, that was, like, one of my best that I've ever done. Very tight. And I wanted. I. In my dream world, I want somebody to give me money. Yeah, Please ask the people. And literally crowdsource. And I would love to, like, tour it. Yeah. And, like, there's, like, things I want to flush out. Like, I wanted, like, altar boys. Yeah, yeah. But, like, gay altar boys. So, like, they'd be, like, in, like, the, you know, the normal cloak and the garb, but, like, the butt was cut out. Yeah. I just want to see, like, cheeks. Yes. Like, you know, I just want it to be like, again, Tor Aventesia. And it's just, like, the Budget. I get stifled with the budget. And yes, like, everything is self funded. I do everything myself, all that kind of stuff. And there's a lot of things that, like, I want to do, but I'm like, I don't have $6,000 for those things. So we make art from dollar tree stuff and we still make it look good. Yes. So then when somebody gives me a budget one day, I'm like, oh, baby, I know what to do with this money. Yes. I know where this money is going. Yes. Yeah. So now tell me, where is number two gonna go? It's gonna go online. It's coming out in eight days. Here we go. Here we go. And then number three comes out.
[00:33:32] I am. Or we start the fundraising process. We're starting the process of. What are we gonna talk about? What's the. The energy. You're dreaming. You're dreaming. Yeah, I'm feeling. This is an exclusive. You heard it here, a podcast exclusive, that. I think I'm gonna wear green. Yes, you are. Yeah, I see it. Yeah. Because if you don't know which, you should know. So I have three specials. The first one is red. Second one is blue. And then the one I'm coming out with is purple. All monochromatic. I don't know why. For me, it made. Like, when I did my red, I was like, this kind of makes sense me. And I did blue, and I was like, you know what? Because I do so many artistic things, I kind of want a through line with my comedy and something that, like, oh, people can see. Oh, this girl that does monochromatic, that wears bright colors. I'm here for it. Exactly. Yes. Yeah, a little bit of that. Great. In all colors. How is that even possible?
[00:34:23] Mama. Yeah, the hair. Just not neons. I don't look at neon.
[00:34:28] Don't go to edc. Yeah, yeah, it's true. You don't. You don't look good. Nobody looks good in. No, no, no, no. Especially that, like, yellow, green, neon.
[00:34:36] I don't like that color.
[00:34:38] Not. No, no, not at all. This is my daughter, Grion.
[00:34:43] That was a reach that I will pity laugh for, which is a great callback. Listen to the episode. Okay. Thank you again for being here. So much fun. I was on this one.
[00:34:57] I don't know what you call it. And I guess it was like. I thought it was going to be, like, professional. Okay. But it was like, just not at all. And. Yeah. Wait, what was it? It was a. It was like. No, I think. I didn't really. I mean, they told me it was Like a podcast. And it was like, would this person shut your mouth, dude?
[00:35:21] And I just like, yeah, I was just sitting in this. In that. When that. When I was sitting in that chair and I was like, wow, this is just so, like, crazy, you know, I can't with you. I can't with you. What was it called? Do you remember? I think it was like, it was like shaping, like moves or something. I can't with you. Shaping words.
[00:35:40] I also maybe shouldn't have said shaping. No, I know this is all unedited. Okay. Something I did. Okay. Something that was unsuccessful. I think it's more vulnerable if I share something I did that was unsuccessful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to choose something that's every day. Okay. Ooh. And I would just say being a teacher in la, just like some classes are just unsuccessful. And I think a lot of creative people get stunned because they think every class, every choreo, every creation needs to be gold.
[00:36:10] But creating is unpredictable, you know. And yeah, I have some classes. I'm like, this one was unsuccessful, you know, or this quarry was unsuccessful. And that's okay. And it happens. And hopefully the next three in a row are all, you know, extremely successful after that. Well, now I have to ask a follow up question. Okay. What's the mark of a successful class? Like, what makes a class, like, hit? Yeah, I think the mark of a successful class is everybody leaving excited, inspired.
[00:36:40] Going, that was awesome. Nice. That's just me. That was awesome. That's your bar. Yeah. They're inspired. It's the energy in the room is. It's like, it's contagious. People leave inspired. I don't know, man.
[00:36:56] That's hard because I know this, like, isn't it? But I'm proud of everything that I do.
[00:37:03] And even if it is a bad job or I messed up or something was learned, I never regret anything. I don't regret anything in life. I think everything happens for a reason. So, you know, maybe I wish that I would have had a more of a backbone and stand up for myself for a certain artist that I worked for. That was very rude or, you know, I was made fun of for my weight a couple times for a job and that made me go into a big down spiral and I wish I would have just been like, oh, that person is insecure because I'm absolutely not overweight and I wish I would have just stood up for myself a little bit more. So that one. Yeah, that's huge.
[00:37:51] Thank you for that reminder. Yeah, yeah. I. I've Been really liking the answers that I get to this question. Because, you know, when people talk about the work that went well, we talk about the things that went well, but the things that people need help with are the moments when things don't go well. Yeah. So thank you 100%. Yeah. Okay. So when I first moved here, I moved in with my ex crewmates and it was a lot of us. It was like nine of us in a three bedroom apartment. We were doing the LA dream thing. A couple months later, I broke up with my boyfriend, but I was still sharing a room with him. I just, I had to get out of there. The energy was crazy and I just wanted to get an apartment. And that was my only goal. No matter what, I was getting my apartment. And I, because of that just clouding all my judgment, I ended up being scammed by an apartment, fake apartment landlord. I sent him like fourteen hundred dollars and of money that I really didn't have. It happened to you too. You're getting a strong nod over here, bruh. Like, and I should have known in hindsight, of course. Cause even if it was 2015, you were not gonna find a one bedroom for $700 in North Hollywood now. You know what? Like, but I had just come from Florida and I was very normal in Florida at the time. So I was like, oh, bruh. So yeah, it was just like money I didn't have.
[00:39:18] I was friends with Shilpatra at the time and I remember her trying to help me do the apartment applications. And I was very much like, no, I got it.
[00:39:29] One thing about me, when I'm stressed, I need to be alone. Because if you try to offer me any advice, even if it's good, I'm like, no, no, I'm good. Interesting. Okay. You know this about yourself. Yeah. I had to come out of that because it was not good. And I fumbled because had I let her help me, I probably wouldn't have been scammed because she had been here, living here. Accept help. Accept help. Like unconditional help. Like, people will give it and they don't want anything in return. They're not going to hold it over your head, like. And she just wants certain things that you shouldn't have to do alone. No.
[00:40:08] Finding buying a place is a hard thing to do without, you know, having some sort of support. Yeah. And especially when you have absolutely no experience doing so. I grew up in the same house my whole life. Like, what is credit for an apartment? I didn't know. I'm like, where do I find my Pay stubs. I got direct deposit.
[00:40:27] Like, where. Where do you look for it? I didn't know how to do any of that. And she really could have helped me. Come on, don't pick it up. Because. Yes, it's like, it's this life shit that dance class didn't prepare you for. Yeah. And. And that people don't warn you about. People warn you about drugs, people warn you about like, don't sleep with the boss, don't be late to rehearsals, don't blah, blah, blah. And we know that shit already.
[00:40:52] And also that. But it's still gonna happen. And guess what? It's gonna be fine. It's gonna be okay. Lessons learned. Shouldn't sleep with the boss or be like rehearsal. But. Yeah. I mean, it's just. There are more practical, teachable lessons that we don't ever get taught. Yeah. And thank you for being part of that change. Thank you. So one of my first music videos that I directed with a major label, it was for an artist called Benson Boone. And it was a song that I was sent to pitch on. And when I'm telling you, I was obsessed with the song. And immediately all of these visuals come to my mind and I start writing my treatment and I'm like doing. And I did like just flowing. Oh, I did like. I did such an in depth time coded treatment. Probably like the craziest treatment I've ever sent in for something. I booked the job so excited. I hired Megan Lawson to come into Choreographic because there was like a. There was a subtle dance choreography element, but very subtle, very naturalistic. I worked with one of my favorite DPs. We shot the whole thing on film. It was a major labor of love. It was one of the hardest jobs I ever did. We lost our location the night before. Like, it was a nightmare in a lot of ways. The shoot itself was so magical, so fun and exciting. And we got to the edit. The edit. The editing team that I was working with was like, this is one of my favorite music videos that I've worked on this year. It's so dope. I was really like. It was a huge scale narrative, filmic, cinematic story.
[00:42:29] And why do I feel like this is going to crash and burn? And we submit the first cut to the label. Oh, no. And the artist doesn't like how he looks on camera singing. It was his first ever music video. He'd never done a music video before. And he didn't like how he's singing because he was projecting. He's singing out for me. I'm like, that's emotion. That looks good. He's also gorgeous. Like, Benson is gorgeous. So I was like. I was like, what do you. You look like a Greek sculpture. But okay. But he just. He didn't love the way that he looked, and it. It ended up getting canned. And I was devastated, like, because there wasn't. I was so passionate about the song. I was so passionate about the vision of the music video. Everything was so affirming the whole way through. It felt like it was a big step for me working with, like, this major label pulling off this. And the label loved the video. Like, they were really happy with it. Yeah. So I was getting great feedback. But, you know, it came down to his choice, and it is absolutely. It's his image, it's his career, and it's totally valid. Sometimes we just don't like how we look in certain things. Even if we're wrong, it doesn't matter.
[00:43:32] And it got canned, and I just remember being absolutely devastated. But I talked to one of my best friends, Ali Pankiw, who's a very established, successful director, and she was so unfazed, and she goes, babe, getting a music video canned is. Is par for the course. Like, duh, it happens. It's a rite of passage. Like, Everybody has to. 100%. It will happen to you. And I've even seen it now. As you know, I've choreographed a bunch of commercials and things, and I've worked on huge national commercials with a list directors, a list talent that don't see the light of day, that get canned. It just happens. And it's like, it had nothing to do with me, my vision, my talent, my execution. But it did feel very personal at that time, and I was absolutely gutted. But thank you. Good share. Really good share. I survived. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Most of the time, when people come on a podcast, they talk about, like, their work that's great, and that won them Emmys and stuff. But now I want to know about a gig that did not go well. I want to hear about a fumble or a failure. A fumble. Huh?
[00:44:44] Interesting.
[00:44:46] Well, the thing that I just thought of right away wasn't as a choreographer. It was when I was dancing at Universal Studios Entertainment capital of the world.
[00:44:55] Don't want to brag. You've danced on tour. On the world. But did you do Universal? Probably not. Okay.
[00:45:02] I was Martha May. Don't want to brag. Grinchma's. Heard of it. Yes. Every time the tram came out, I did the dance, like, 100 times a day. Probably it's like a pretty big deal anyways. I am riveted. I don't even. You don't even have to continue. Actually. No. I did it two times. My favorite choreographer, who I. Who I've. Who I've learned a lot from as far as like how to hold a room and how to trust people. Dan Mojica, who's no longer with us, a beautiful man and had this like really old school quality of musical theater movement that felt authentic, not like a nod to something else, you know what I mean? I danced with him at this gig called Top Hats Dance at the Grove. Don't want to brag. Have you heard of the train? So we went from a train to. Yeah, it's an. It's a fancy outdoor mall and it snowed. We like the TV shows and stuff. Stuff too. But anyways, tree lightings. Heard of them.
[00:45:54] So as a dancer, as a 510 showgirl anytime. It was like Christmas. Musical theater. Not the Rockettes. That was me. Yep, yep. You had that booking. And I was like why are you in la? Go to New York. But doesn't matter. I digress. But I have a lot of opinions and I am older, so I've learned to tamper them. And there's a time and a place when to be excited or when to give your voice. As a dancer, it was hard to not be myself.
[00:46:23] And I didn't quite realize production and flow. So we were in a line looking at costumes and Dan was there and I was looking at Dan and trust Dan, I'm honest with him. And then a few other people who I didn't know and then we went costume by costume, character by character to like talk about the outfit and the hair and the whole thing. It was a production meeting that I wasn't invited to, but I was a body at. Yes, but you took that as your invitation. Didn't quite know. And so they're done and that. And then they were like. Cuz I had this Martha May wig that was so big and so annoying. Cuz it's like a big bouffant with like presents in it. And it looked like I was like an 80 year old. Like it wasn't sexy Martha and it was like really heavy and I just like it was not it. It was not the one. And so you let them know that. And they came da da da. And then so they were like, oh. And Martha May go oh, this wig. And Dan goes. I go okay, okay. That's fast. Well. Oh, but I mean. But I said it. Oh okay. They were looking at me like, oh, I know. The wig is just. I think Dan was like, oh. I was like, okay, so you took the visual cue. I went, oh. And then I was like, oh, my. That's so rude. Like, I just insulted someone's work and I wasn't invited to the conversation. So I. So that was a fumble. That's really quickly that out loud. I bet when I think about embarrassing moments, I will make an out loud sound like. Oh. Like, as I think about it, it happens all the time in my daily life. Usually I'm alone and just. Oh.
[00:47:58] And that's one of those moments. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's definitely things like, as far as choreography and the come up of, like, asking for more recognition of my team or asking for more recognition of myself or standing up for yourself or asking for money. More money for your team and yourself. And those are things that I wish. I wish I could go back and redo. But that's not necessarily a fumble. It's just you learn as you grow in the business. Yeah. And you would do things a little differently than you would, but you also are treated differently as you come up in the business too. That's true. Anyways, good answer. Martha may love that. Don't want to brag. Thank you for sharing. Yes. There is one project in particular that I'm sure even if I don't name it, everybody will probably think about talking about it. But, um, yeah, there were a lot of struggles in this particular project. Not even in the outcome of the project, but throughout. As most projects have. There's just obstacles. But I think more than anything, it was like.
[00:48:59] It taught me the most that I've learned on the job.
[00:49:05] Like, feet on the ground, on set, on the job. You're learning at war. Yeah. It taught me the most. And that's what tends to happen when you have a hard experience at. You learn from everything, like I said at the beginning of this. Yep. But I think particularly you learn from the struggle. You learn from when struggle comes knocking. Right. What was the lesson? I think the biggest lesson was how to. I learned a lot from how big, like, people that have more experience deal graciously or try to deal graciously with things that happen on sets, like moments where things go wrong. Like, you know, schedule things or someone responding in a certain way that's not, you know, appropriate or inappropriate. Ness. Yeah. Flat out. Yeah. That shouldn't be happening at all anywhere.
[00:50:00] I learned from people that I look up to how different.
[00:50:05] Different versions of responses. Exactly. Different versions of responses. And what. And what? There's, like, deep value to that. Yeah. To observing other people on set. Even when. If you might be number one on set or number 80 on set or whatever the. Oh, my God, 700. The last. The last gig I did. Yeah, dude. Yeah. Like, you. You always have the opportunity to observe. Step back, and there's always so much more value to doing that, especially when it's a hard shoot. Yeah. Yeah. And I was very grateful that I had a few. Few folks that I could be like, oh, next time, if this ever happens again, I will remember that this person was so great. Like, they probably had a bunch of experiences maybe where they didn't respond that way. But I will take. That's. That's what I'm gonna strive for. Yeah. Straight from their playbook. Yeah. Straight from their. You know what I mean? I wish I could say something more specific, but I don't know. You're good. I get it. Just maybe the lesson was overall, like, when it gets hard, step back, observe. Take the. Find the lesson. Find the lesson. What am I meant to learn right now? Yeah. And can I learn it now instead of later, after? I regret the way I respond now? Before I have learned. Yes. Before I have learned this thing. Yes. Okay. I have a great one. You can lead on this show. Okay. So this one job I had, the choreographer ended up getting mad at me while I was in a ponche. And she said that I rolled my eyes at her. Her. Which I'm. I'm kind of confused on how you could roll your eyes in a ponche. Right. Because you're, like, staring down and you're focusing. And she's like, you. And I came up, and she's like, you rolled your eyes at me while you were in the ponche? And I'm like, I don't know if that's actually possible, but. Okay. Anatomically, no. Right. So then she's like, get over here. And it was at Alley Cat. So if we remember, like, what Alley Cat was like, shout out to Rip. Rip. Shout out to all the studios.
[00:51:56] Recipes. Restfully, I said it. So that Alley Cat. Bathroom. She told me to get into the bathroom, and I said, oh. And she backed me into the bathroom. This is some. It's dance movie stuff. This is totally dance movie stuff. Somebody please write this. And this is really funny. So then I'm backed up. I'm straddling the toilet, and I have my phone on me, and. And she's yelling at me about rolling her eyes and how I should be fired. And I'm just like, I'm. I'm more. So. I'm more thinking how logistically I would roll my eyes in a ponche. Cause in my head, I was like, that's really hard. And in my head, that's what I'm thinking about. I'm a little bit, like, having her tantrum. Yeah. My weight is on the ball of my foot. I'm trying to turn out again. Here's where my technique is. I'm like, how does one actually roll their eyes in a penche? So then she's yelling at me, yelling at, yelling and yelling at me. And I'm like. And I just said this. I said, please don't touch me, because if you do touch me, there's going to be a problem, is what I said. And then she's. She just stopped. And so I went by her. This is a true story. This sounds crazy. So then I go to lunch, and then we end up going to Vegas for the gig. And while I was in Vegas, I booked a guest star on Community. Nice. I flew back, and I didn't tell her. I told the dance captain. I said, I'm going to do this job. Yes. I flew to la, did a night shoot, flew back, happened to run on stage, get in costume, and the dance captain was like, where are you? Where are you gonna be fired? I was like, well, she was already gonna fire me, so it doesn't really matter. Right. Like, she. She said I was gonna be, you know, she was. I thought she was gonna fire me. So you thought she was gonna hit you? I thought she was, like, physically going to assault me.
[00:53:31] And so I fly back to Vegas, I do the gig, still get paid skin of your teeth. It turned out into, like, a great positive because I still got to work a guest star. I still got a check to help pay rent from that gig. Never worked for her again. Do you think if you hadn't had that interaction in the bathroom that you would have stayed in Vegas and done the gig and not taken the guest star role? Like, if you had felt welcome and appreciated and safe and all those things, probably I probably would have been a little bit, like, more conflicted again. I was just like, well, what do I have to lose? She said she was already gonna fire me and almost hit me, so yikes. Shelby, I'm so sorry that happened. Oh, that's okay. But years later, I saw at a dog park, and I sung her praises to everybody around me, knowing that she knew what happened at that moment, which is even funnier because again, Kill him with kindness. Well, that's what. Well, like, what is it to me? I still. I still won. Yeah. I still paid my rent that month back.
[00:54:25] That is some made for tv. Like, that's a TV scenario that I would have that I really wish doesn't happen to anyone else. Yes. Part of the efforts of the Choreographers Guild is Deia training and making sure that all of our people know how to conduct themselves perfect. Know how to manage their minds and not lash out at people and make them feel unsafe. And. Yeah. A general code of choreographer conduct that is very disappointing to hear. Or how about, like, code of conduct is just being humans. That. And also, just don't break the law, maybe. Yeah. Just, like, don't break the law. I do well with divas.
[00:54:58] I do well with Meryl Streep, Mariah Carey, Jennifer Holiday. Like, did you ever work with Jennifer Lopez? No.
[00:55:10] Divas.
[00:55:15] When it comes to men, not as good. Okay. I choreographed a boy band Christmas. Okay. TV special. Did not go well because I was not looped into any details. And also trying to wrangle boy band pop stars. It's like wrangling and herding cats. Yes. So it was not the most fun experience for me because, again, I know how to talk to divas. Yeah.
[00:55:45] Boy band guys. It's a different thing. It's a different thing. Different. It just brought me back to trauma chemistry. Yeah. It was like middle school trauma, where I was like, there was a lot of burping and farting and, like, words being said, and I was just like, okay, this is what I'm doing. My people. Your people are divas. Yes. Not my best shining moment. I just basically sat in a corner being like, what am I doing here? Because a lot of times they wouldn't clue me in onto who's singing what part of the song, what song it was where they're standing. So right before they would roll, they'd be like, all right, what? What. What steps should we do? Where should we stand? And I was just like, oh, man, why don't we just semicircle it up? Even though we shouldn't be doing that. But, like, what else can you do? Okay, question. Knowing what you know now, because this was a while in the past, I'm assuming not too long in the past. Yeah. Knowing what you know now, Post Broadway, post, kind of becoming a person who has.
[00:56:43] Check the boxes. Does it satisfy this? Am I proud of this? Am I okay with watching this with my name on it? Even though this, like, you've kind of formed a way for yourself, would you do anything differently? I would not have accepted the job. You would just say, that's not for me. Yes. Love that. Yes. And a lot of great choreographers that I know will pass it on to somebody else because jobs have been passed on to me. That choreographers are like, this is not my job, man. That is so important to know that limit, to know that boundary. And now you have learned it. Yeah. Earlier in my career, I would have been like, I just want to do everything and experience it. Now I'm like, if it's not going to be a match, it's like dating. I'm not going to keep dating somebody that I know is not going to be a match. What's the point? Well said.
[00:57:29] And I just. I just know that about myself and, you know, to thine own self be true.
[00:57:34] Love that. To Thor own self, I will be true.
[00:57:39] Thank you. That's awesome. Thank you. I'll speak kind of generally, so not to bring names or people into the conversation.
[00:57:52] I can think of actually, like, a few. There's a few different projects that we've worked on in the past that come to mind, so I'll try to kind of infuse them in the experience. And one of them was about the team.
[00:58:08] It was a big multimillion dollar network job, and we were brought into this project. It's the team itself. We learned a lot about, like, how to handle treating people. And we felt like we weren't like, we were kind of treated horribly throughout months of work and just always told ourselves that, like, if we were ever in that position, that we would try to never treat anyone like that. Because it's insane that, like, we as people would do that to each other, especially in the silly industry.
[00:58:49] And.
[00:58:51] And I think that was like a very.
[00:58:54] Going to work. Hated going to work.
[00:58:58] Would question what I'm doing. Like, every decision that you make, you're. You're like. Then you feel frozen. You feel like. Like you can't do anything. And I think that's a. That's a tough place to work from, but, like, stepping away from that and just like in those scenarios, like, you can either again, like, sulk in it or. Or respond to it in a way where, like, yeah, I learned how not to be to people. And then speak briefly about the other two.
[00:59:31] One being just like the way dancers are treated by other people.
[00:59:38] Two dancers on a project, and we're just like, okay, they're not needed. Like, shove them out the door kind of thing, kind of reaction. And it's like, in those moments, I'm reminded by how people view dancers. And so that was, again, a learning moment to fight for how dancers can be viewed and how we're. We're taken care of. And then the last one was just, like. It was actually a recent dream project that didn't go as. As well as planned, and it was tough. A really, really tough pill to swallow. And they're just a reminder of, like, how to navigate your expectations while they might not be meant to, then find the things that are so invaluable in the memories and the relationships that you create and bringing that forward, because they're all. All of these things. I'm speaking generally, but all of these things we're learning experiences while so crappy and so horrible. Take the time to navigate what you can pull from those things so you're not only looking at them negatively, but you can charge those negative feelings into positive ones to put it back out into the next project. Because I think if you. If you regurgitate those negative energies, then you're only.
[01:00:50] You're making the problem worse. So, like, just try to. Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. Try to elevate. Elevate the negativity. I love that. This question of not why is this happening to me, but how is this happening for me?
[01:01:06] Whenever. Whenever my brain offers me this is shit, I try to remind it that, yeah, it is. There's no, like, we don't need to pretend, like, to spin it and, like, into, like, gaslight yourselves ever. But, like, whenever my brain offers me this is shit, I will follow it up with. Because I have growth to do here. It's shit because growth, it's shit because learning, it's shit because I get. There's something here for me. What is it? I don't know yet. But I've got to find the thing that's here for me. So, yeah, that's. That's. That's huge. Thank you for sharing that. Would you. Would you say the same, Mari? Yeah. I'm going through all of the.
[01:01:49] Like, there are certain points where it's like, oh, yeah, that was really tough, or that was really unpleasant to go through. But there's always on the other side of that coin, there was a reason or a thing I had to learn from it. I had to learn a lesson, and so I wouldn't take it back and I wouldn't change it. It's just now I take in the lesson and I go forward, and then when I look back at those. Those times, in those moments with enough distance, I Can forgive the people who maybe unintentionally caused hurt or harm or imposed somehow, some unwanted thing. Yeah, I think there's a bit of, like, when an experience isn't great, you have to figure out what the lesson is for yourself. But also if you keep resenting the people or the circumstances, then you're still holding on to something and you're not going to be able to move forward. I think that's just as important. Huge to be able to move forward. Yeah. Like, when it comes to the work that I've done growing up in an age where social media is kind of all I'd known. So I have shared my work from very early on.
[01:03:11] And sometimes I regret that just because there's so much of myself that is not representative who I am now, which is, you know, gonna happen.
[01:03:20] But I started so young and, you know, I started doing a lot of, like, world of dances. I would do like a lot of solos when I was younger, when I was like 11, 12.
[01:03:33] And that's when I started to use YouTube a lot. That's when people started to, you know, figure out who I was and all that stuff. But I mean, just like that whole time period is hard. Is a hard watch. Not only just because, of course, like, you know, I'm young and I'm not the biggest fan of what I'm doing. But I think also I at that time was struggling because I knew I wasn't where I wanted to be. And so the place, like, I was dancing from from around like 11 to, I would say, like 16, was when I would perform. I was very angry. Cause I think I had, like, a lot to prove, not only to myself, but to other.
[01:04:13] And now you can't get me to like, share any sort of aggression on stage. Like, I am going and flowing.
[01:04:21] But so seeing that, that part of myself, I also see a lot of, like, hurt and uncertainty there. So it's a hard watch. Not just because of, like, I'm doing things I don't like, but I'm also watching and knowing that I'm not too certain of it either at that time. Wow. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing. That's real. That's real. And for what it's worth, to tie back to our conversation about the tables turning and like, you know, coming back around to things, there is no end to that. You will watch you, you know, going and flowing. Oh, I know when you're 60 and you'll be like, oh, how sweet. I know. Shut up. Right? I know. It's. There's no.
[01:05:05] Especially with something like dance and hip hop. Specifically. Yeah. Is a response to the now. Yeah. It's about the time. So 10 years from now, you will look back at it and it will feel nostalgic. It will feel precious. It will feel quaint and young because you will be older. And it will. You know, you will. You will be thinking and feeling, I didn't know myself yet or I really thought I knew myself. I know, but that was before I had this lesson and this lesson teacher and this heartbreak and whatever. Totally. But I feel you. I watch. I mean, some of my favorite work, I still feel that way about. Like, why. Why did I feel the need to rebound off of everything? Every single account? Like the trend, the trendy things. Totally, totally. That I felt like I really owned and was good at. Yeah. Oh, it's so hard. It's so real. It is. So I think I. And I really got in a. In a weird cycle. Like, I kind of almost like, paralyzed myself in some ways when I was younger because I think I was so aware of that too. Oh. Yeah. I was like, I know that what I'm doing right now, who I am right now is not what I will be. Right. And there's nothing I can do. I don't know who I will be. So all I am is this person today, and I just gotta go. And then they're like Marley Hightower to the stage. And you're like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, man. For sure. This is dance. This is what it means to be like, a. In the visual medium, a performing artist means that we will be reckoning with all of that. Yeah. Like, you. You. You have to fight and work to prepare the thing that you put out. And then after it's done, you fight and work to accept it and to love it or. Or leave it. Totally. This is an ongoing thing. Yeah. I'm accepting it now, like, so aware of how much I don't know and being okay with that. Yeah.
[01:06:54] Nice. First time working with Dave Myers, the director.
[01:06:59] He was looking for a choreographer to rehearse with a dozen male dancers the morning of the shoot. That was in the afternoon. One rehearsal. Morning shoot, the afternoon.
[01:07:17] Matt and I did it together. We collaborated. Okay. Because they were looking at both of us, and we said, let's just do it together. Yes. We had an amazing cast of all types.
[01:07:28] Bill Prudich, Super Dave was in there. Jake and Danny and Taylor James. Oh, my goodness.
[01:07:35] So this is for the Ed Sheeran video. Oh, my God. Yes. Shivers. Oh, my God. Yes. Yes. Yes. Little dance break. Right.
[01:07:46] Dave and I had a quick meeting on the phone.
[01:07:51] He said, I want this to be an epic dance break, and I'm gonna. He said, I want to put this. Put Usher to shame. I'm like, ooh, well, maybe. But also, Ed is not going to be dancing. He's not a dancer. He has this little gag with a guitar dropping from the ceiling, and he can have a little bit of direction. Yeah. And Matt and I were like, ooh, fun, crazy moves. Yes. Let's bring out the moves. And we have one morning to kind of execute. And the reference that he sent us was from Greece.
[01:08:26] Na na na na na na na. Tell me more, tell me more. Yeah. Wow. The guys kind of jamming up. Teenage lust. Danny in the movie saying, tell us you love her. Because that was what was happening in the music video. Yep, yep, yep. He's singing this love story, and the guys are all like, tell us, tell us. Oh, no, gross, girls. So there was just a bit of fun in that.
[01:08:52] And so Matt and I took that direction and dance ran with it that morning. And we went in with a plan and our eight counts. And we.
[01:09:05] The fellows were incredible. We did a warmup, and then they learned very quickly. And we worked on some different formations and made sure that we got it all done and filmed so we could send it to Dave. And he called me right away and he said, yeah, this is. Nope, that's not it. He's like, there's way too much going on. Oh, my gosh. He said, this is. There's no. I just want guys to kind of walk in and do that knee thing from the reference. It's not going to work. Oh, wow. Which I agree with him fine. In seeing the final product. I totally agree with him. And I think I missed the mark on asking more questions about the reference. Not having any dance choreography in it. Unison steps. It's very organic. It's really.
[01:09:58] It's certainly formations and staging, but it's also a bunch of solos happening. I think we were moving quickly, and we heard epic dancing, and we made.
[01:10:07] I love these guys. And then we just stripped it. We said, great. Okay. Can always take it away. Yes. Strip, Strip. Easier to do that, especially with not a lot of time. Showed up on set, stripped. He's like, just. Just come. You know, just be here, and we'll work it out. He wasn't worried. Dave a master. Super. And works super well.
[01:10:25] And we got there, and he's like, yeah, no, no, no. I just. I literally need this. I know the Exact movies. That's all. That's all I need.
[01:10:35] And so I think I'm curious always what. When you use an adjective like epic and I want it to outdo you. Sort of like an Usher dance moment.
[01:10:47] I should have leaned into more questions about the reference. And. And that is often what.
[01:10:54] When a reference is given, they want that. They want the thing that they see and that they. The tone of it. But we got it to where it needed to be, of course. And we did it in a quick time. And the guys were happy because it was a hot summer day. We were outside, and they were glad to be. And if they were hitting skunk ga da ga ga ga, that would have been sweaty boots. And instead it was. We were dacting. We were. We were really responding to Ed. And he was so wonderful to work with. And I really enjoyed the project, but I felt like I had missed the mark. Yeah. And I was bummed because I really admire and respect Dave Myers. And it was such a quick overlap. Yeah. And maybe we'll have another shot at it. Yes. I hope so. I think so. Maybe not. He's like, no.
[01:11:50] So in the moment, would you have simply said, okay, when you say epic, do you mean this, that, or this that? I love using sliding scales. When I'm talking to non dancers, I'll usually ask. I think my favorite way of putting it is. So on a scale of Auntie's Basement Party and Radio City Rockettes, what kind of dance are you talking about? Very pedestrian step touch. Or like polished and rhinestoned unison high kicks. Like, where, Where. Where are we at? Absolutely. And this is another example of Dave looked at our reels quickly and said, yep, they'll be perfect. Or either one of them. Right. And we did it together.
[01:12:33] We were not hired for our taste in personal style. And I. We were hired because he saw that we'd worked with people on projects and scales and timing, that it was okay. These are professionals. Get them in. We'll get it done. Yes. And you did. We really tried to get in more, which often we do as choreographers. And so much of it gets stripped back and cut. And that is cool because. Learn that lesson. Yes. Not so precious about it. Wanting to not waste anybody's time or energy either if it's not what's being asked for. And on the other hand, he could have gone, whoa, that is way more than I expected. And it's awesome. I. Yeah, let's do it. It's not what I had imagined, but often. Yeah. Yeah. On the day that. Yeah. Felt like I would have maybe asked for more of a sliding scale of unison. Impre.
[01:13:33] Athleticism. Yeah. Musicality. Yeah. Or what she was looking for, which was like, just natural in and out. Acting. Acting. You know those faces that are like, there's, like, at Ikea or something, and they're like, was the bathroom clean? And you slap it like, no. A little bit. Yes. I'm gonna start giving, like, okay, athleticism. Where we at? Okay. And on goofiness, where are we at? Like, what's the scale of each of these things? And you just push a button. And then that informs me of, like, how to make the thing, because. Yeah. There's so many different verticals that. That we're trying to. That's right. Really nail. And we think that there is a best way. And I. And I think, especially growing up convention kids or studio kids, like, we want to please the person. We want to do it right. And sometimes we want to impress. Yeah, we want to impress. When you don't know what exactly impresses that person. I was. I was given that note. I did a song video for a J pop group, 11 ladies. And one of the notes I got when making it, because they really were involved, the production, the director, and they said, we would like this section to be more impressive.
[01:14:52] And I said, okay, no problem. I said, you're not impressed? Okay, I got it. Do you mean faster? What do you mean, bigger? Like, I'm trying to think of things that are in the world of sort of making an impression. Impressed. Something Impressed. Yes. Faster. Bigger. More intricate. More levels. More formation changes.
[01:15:18] Yeah. More athletic. What?
[01:15:22] And faster. Okay, so I gave those. And. Great. Sounds good. Totally amazing. And I appreciate that language much more than sort of a broad. Oh, yes. Thing. Or to not hurt my feelings. Too gentle. Yeah. Give me. Don't worry. In this, I'm a sensitive person, but in this moment, nothing can get me down. Let's go. Give me the information. Yep. You love that. And on the flip side, it could be like, hey, can we have a little less dance? And it's like, for sure or no. Someone said, 80% less dance. And I was like, huh?
[01:16:01] So what?
[01:16:06] So what is it the first 80% or over spread that 80% over a 100% of the dance? I said, okay, great. So take out all of the unison, maybe. Or let's take out that one. Oh, God, I love that drag. That really feels dancy. Like, just say what you mean. Oh, my God. You can get there faster. Oh, my God, my feelings. Oh, my God, that makes me think About a video that I choreographed. And it was. It was a really tough shoot. And I think in some reasons, in ways I could have helped and maybe not, but that is definitely. It was a night shoot and I went home and I couldn't fall asleep because I was just laying there thinking of how I could have made that better for the dancers that I basically, you know, like their friends and people I value and admired. And I felt like that shoot, like, was an extension of me inviting them into this environment that, granted, I didn't have full control over, but I just felt like they weren't respected in the way that they should have been, considering they were the video, like, quite literally the best and only thing that's happening on the screen. And so from little things, like, not really giving enough time to be styled on the day. And so people feel good about what they're doing to how they look. Yeah. Which influences how we move to the artists not really involved in the process until showing up on set and not seemingly very gracious about the 10 people that are, like, flying around them and, like, saying thank you to the camera person.
[01:17:47] Not really working with me and what I had built in a way that, like, protected them, the. The camera and the dancers so that we all knew what was going on to. We went to lunch and the dancers were put at the end of the line, even though they're the talent. And then once they got through, there were no tables or chairs. And we're, like, filming on a bridge in downtown la and they're on their feet, they can't sit down, so they're sitting on the curb, like. And I was late because I was talking to the director about, like, what was coming next, given what had just happened and how it went down. And then came into the lunch zone on the bridge and, you know, they're sitting on the curb or they're at the end of the line and, like, having to talk to the AD about, like, hey, like, can we get these people chairs that have been dancing for the last six hours and are going to keep dancing, you know, like, it just felt like step after step, like, you know, that they weren't respected and, like, upheld and revered like they should be. And I feel that that is my job to help make sure that that happens as a choreographer and that that has to happen before that moment, you know, like, and how, you know, you talk to production, how you talk to anyone that's working on the project, so in case they don't know, because oftentimes people don't. That like, these people are professionals that have trained their whole life to do this. And the fact that it looks easy and fun is a testament to that. And we should be honoring and treating them just as you would any other type of person that ends up in front of camera.
[01:19:17] And so I just felt like I had let them down, you know, and I. And I. I mean, it's a huge learning point, like now, I know, like, to have all of those conversations, like, where will there be seats for them? Making sure that they are the front of the line. How can we make sure that everyone can dance and what they're like perform in the. Whatever you want them to wear. Like, you know, having conversations with director about camera beforehand, even if it's uncomfortable. Just so you're trying to protect everyone's safety and like, well being on the day, you know, and it. Yeah. All the things that are a choreographer's job that are not making up moves. Yeah. I. I am sorry that that happened. Glad that you were able to learn from it. And I know that all of those dance types were grateful for you and love you still, regardless. But there's nothing worse than feeling in between.
[01:20:09] Well, there are plenty of things worse, but it feels terrible to feel in between dancers and respect and safety. Yes. Like if. If. If dancers aren't feeling safe, if they're not feeling respected. And for you to be like, oh, hold on. Be right back. Let me go. Yeah. But still, so much of it is education. Right. Learning Curves. Not every AD has ever had dancers on set before. Not every music video calls for dance. And therefore they just. This is. Not everybody knows how to do it well or how to care for us. Yeah. Or. And slash, like, maybe they've never had dancers with a choreographer or they didn't have a choreographer that steps in to advocate earlier on, you know, and. And knowing that that's okay. You know, like, and that's a part of our job as a choreographer, just like it's a part of any stunt coordinator's job to assess the safety of any one thing and to report if someone should or should not do that, you know, and it's not at all personal or trying to affect the outcome of it. Well, I mean, it does affect the outcome, but I, you know, like, as a choreographer, to tell your AD at this time of night and on this surface, we should not be doing it again, like, it's not safe for everyone. And that sometimes makes you the bad guy. Totally. When everyone's just trying to, you know, get the thing. But. And that's the hard part about our job sometimes. So. Yeah. And the opposite of being a dancer, which is to be the yes guy who says yes and yes and sure and sure. And then you have to switch it at some point and be the no guy. Yeah. Or know how to say and when to say no. Yeah. Oh, that's a tough one. Yeah. Not my favorite live action discernment.
[01:21:42] Thank you for sharing. That's a good one. So the. The big one, the Zoom out, is once you get that really big job, your career is not going to grow exponentially.
[01:21:55] That people don't tell. Your career does this up and down and down and then down, down, down, down, down, down, and then up and then down, down, and then up, up, up, up, and then down. No one tells you that you think that it's going to be this trajectory like this. You got the big job, and people from the outside and think, oh, you got the big job. You're doing great. I haven't seen you in a while. You must be working like crazy. Maybe not. No. Maybe it's because I'm not working. Maybe I'm scraping myself off the floor every morning trying to get myself together. Okay, so thank you for just being real, because I was like, am I going to say that maybe I'm depressed and I don't want to go out and I don't want to be seen because I thought it was going to do this and it didn't. And now I'm like, am I failing? Am I? That's why you haven't seen me, not because I'm off on tour. Like, so that's the zoom Out. Like the thing. That's the 30,000 foot view. Yeah, that was like the drop. Like, oh, wow, that's okay.
[01:22:46] Then, like just a really one that I can look at now. And I laugh, but it was not funny at the time. My ponytail flew off in rehearsal in front of. And I'm gonna say this in front of Chris Brown and Omarion. Oh, man. Yeah. And I was asked to wear that ponytail. And I was. I'm a. I always wear natural styles with my hair. Before for this job, I was asked to wear a very long ponytail. And I had a DIY ponytail in rehearsal and did not secure it and was in rehearsal and went for it because that is your mode. And. And that's. And it flew when I went that way, the ponytail went that way, you know, and I couldn't even. People were laughing, and I couldn't be bad that they were laughing, but they were trying not to. I Had to look over and see people's face, like.
[01:23:37] And I was like, this is. I am humiliated. I am humiliated. This is what that is. That feeling. I know. And then have to walk and pick it up. Like, not just like, someone brings it to you. That might even be more humiliated. So it's like, there you go. But have to walk and pick it up. And then, like, rehearsal's not over. So not like, I'll be back today. You've got. It was like, no, we're still in the middle of rehearsing, so you're gonna rehearse without your ponytail for the next five minutes until we go on a break again. And you can go back in the bathroom and. Yeah. Trauma dance. Trauma. And then had to perform with that ponytail on to do a TV gig. That's like salt in the world. And was dancing the whole time on camera, hoping that my ponytail. I mean, it was basically thumbtacked in at that point. But still in my mind, I was like, is it still on? Like, we got to the end of the piece, I was like, I don't even know if it's still on. But it affected your dancing, did it? It didn't, but that was even scarier.
[01:24:33] But brain space. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Not body space, but I went for it. But the whole time thinking my ponytail actually might be off right now on national television, I didn't know. Oh, yeah, that's deep trauma. You didn't know. But I had to finish and was like, my ponytail. There's a chance that my ponytail is not on right now. And what happened in rehearsal actually happened right now. And it didn't when I got off stage. But I was.
[01:24:58] That ponytail flying with that group of people in the room was. Oh, Nina was traumatizing. Oh, thank you for sharing. And I'm so sorry that that happened to you. It was a long one. Oh, all the way down to the cheeks. All the way down to the cheeks. And I. It was cute when it was on, but when it was off, if it propellered, it didn't just fly it.
[01:25:22] Yeah. And my hair was neatly. Like, my own hair was, like, neatly wrapped around. So when it flew off, it wasn't like, and there's Nina's ponytail. It was like this, like. And there's Nina's not. It was like, is that where. Where's the rest of. It was like, nada. Like. And there's still. It was like. And it's nothing.
[01:25:39] It was.
[01:25:41] Yeah. I hope that sharing that story didn't re. Traumatize you. Just now but I am sure that someone is listening. Feeling so seen right now like it's not just me.
[01:25:55] Oh my God. This podcast was produced by me with the help of many big big love to our Executive Assistant and editor, Riley Higgins. Our Communications Manager is Ori Valjadares. Our music is by Max Winnie, logo and brand design by Bri Reitz, thumbnails and marketing by Fiona Small. You can make your tax deductible donations to Words that Move Me thanks to our fiscal sponsor, the Dance Resource center and also many thanks to you. I'm so glad you're here and if you're digging the pod, please share it, leave a review and rating. And if you want to coach with me and the many marvelous members of the Words that Move Me community, visit words that move me.com if you're simply curious to know more about me and the work I do outside of this podcast, visit thedanawilson.com.
