Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Hey, I'm Dana.
[00:00:07] This is Words that move Me. And today we're doing a book report. Sort of, kind of, sort of, kind of a book report.
[00:00:15] Who am I even talking to? Actually, when I have a podcast that's for dancers and I'm talking about reading a book and then I'm asking you to watch that on YouTube.
[00:00:27] Dancing, reading, watching, listening. This is what we're here for, my friend.
[00:00:33] Today I'm talking directly to you because especially you and especially today, you need to hear this episode. You need to hear this message. This topic is important. But first you have to hear about my important win.
[00:00:50] Today I'm celebrating that my crew, I'm going to stick with crew. My crew, the Seaweed Sisters.
[00:00:59] My chosen family for life, the Seaweed Sisters. We competed in a choreography competition in Palm Desert called the Palm Desert Choreography Festival and we didn't win. The win is that we got to spend the weekend together and perform and have really like good catch ups. We had a little chit chat with our friend Napoleon of Nappy tabs. We love you, Tabitha. I'm so sorry you couldn't be there. Napoleon and Tabitha won a lifetime achievement award. Big win for them. And we also got to catch up with Daniel Ezra, who is a truly prolific choreographer. A remarkable and very kind human who choreographed one of my favorite films of all time. Name that movie. Name that movie. Name that movie.
[00:01:49] If you said across the universe, you're correct.
[00:01:53] I'm also celebrating the win that the festival itself was so smoothly run. Big thank you to the Palm Desert Choreography Festival. We had such a great time. Thank you for having us. Wins on wins. On wins. On wins. My friends. That's me. That's what's going well in my world. Now how about you?
[00:02:12] What's going well in your world? Are you celebrating any performances or conversations?
[00:02:17] Are you? Did you lose? And that's a win? I don't know. Say it out loud. This is important.
[00:02:33] Yay.
[00:02:36] Okay, my friend, congratulations. Proud of you.
[00:02:39] Today we're talking about conflict, specifically the resolution of conflict. And I think it's safe to say that post election there will be enough conflict to go around for seconds, thirds, maybe fourths at your holiday dining tables. So I'm sliding this podcast in here before the holidays with the hopes that it will get you through so challenging conversations. I have the help of author, choreographer, dancer, and goddess among mere mortals, Dana Casperson, who is the author of Changing the Conversation. I'm going to relay some of her thoughts from this book and hopefully give you a few takeaways that will encourage healthy conversations around some challenging topics this holiday season. I I really, really encourage you. Please read this book. Buy this book. Read this book. Buy this book. Gift this book to people that you have conflicts with changing the conversation. And no, she does not mean change the conversation away from uncomfortable topics. She means that by changing the way we show up to conflict in our lives, by changing the way that we speak to each other from inside the conflict, we will create more resolve and less conflict in our lives. This book is full of tools and it really is awesome. I love it. It's got everything you need to actually resolve conflicts. Like, resolve them. Like, dissolve them. Like ah. Thank you, Dana Casperson, for being here via your book. But before we get directly into the book review and its contents and any other further praise of Dana Casperson, I love you for this podcast.
[00:04:33] For a second, I want to put dance right in the middle of this conversation because I think that in a few ways dance really gets conflict. Like, we get it, but also we get it wrong. Like dance and dancers get this idea wrong. And that might be funny for you to think about if you've been here for a long time. I always say dance lessons are life lessons, and I think dance has prepared me really well for life. I could count the ways, but there are a few ways in which I think dance and the dance culture, especially competition culture, sets us up wrong. For example, dance tells us that two people or two groups of people will give it their all and fight it out and dance for the life and there will be a winner and a loser.
[00:05:25] That is what dance has taught us, that there will be a winner and a loser. Dance also tells us that there's one person or one group of people that has all the power. They are the judges, the choreographers, the directors, and they can ask for the world. And it's up to the dancers to deliver that. They say jump, we say how high? They say turn and we say ande dam. And I think that that's also kind of the wrong idea when it comes to conflict. And we'll get more to that in a second. But it's fun to chew on, thinking about how dance has set you up wrong when it comes to approaching conflict. Now let's talk about what dance did right.
[00:06:08] I think that dance knows that more work leads to more options. And when you have more options, when you have more time spent practicing those options, you have deeper understanding. You have.
[00:06:27] You have a powerful stance. And in conflict, more options is more better. I think dance has trained us that more work is more better and in conflict resolution, that's absolutely true. I also think that dance understands the complexities of weight sharing, sharing a burden, transitioning and finding balance. I think dancers practice those things every day. We practice shifting weights, we practice pivoting and going a new direction. We practice taking all of our weight from over here to over here. We practice finding balance and losing it and self correcting and then trying again and finding it again and losing it again and coming back no matter what. I think all of those things make dancers prime for conflict resolutions because we're always practicing those things day in and day out.
[00:07:24] Another, another way that I think dance gets conflict right? And another reason why dancers are prime for conflict resolution is because dance tells us how to explore our needs and interests and how to communicate them without violence and fueled by feelings.
[00:07:45] And I think that's so meaningful. And so I'm not shocked at all to find out that Dana Casperson, the author of this book, is also an an award winning performing artist. She's a dancer. And not just a dancer, but like, whoa, one of the greatest to ever do it. I'm tearing. I came upon Dana once. She had already become a mediator and conflict resolve specialist. She has a degree in conflict studies and mediation. But I came to know of her via two dancers, dear friends of mine, Spencer Thiberg and Germaine Spivey. They know Dana through William Forsythe. I believe that's she who she danced with for many years. So I learned of her dancing, was impressed by her dancing, and I'm now even more impressed by her because she has so much great to say when it comes to dance and choreography and conflict. This book specifically focuses on the conversations that we are in when we are in conflict. I think I've said choreography and conflict too many times. We're getting into it. Dana starts by saying, and I'm going to go ahead and direct quote, she says, you can't change how other people act in conflict. And often you can't change your situation, but you can change what you do.
[00:09:15] And like, yeah, duh. But also profound. When's the last time you thought of it that way? I think the thing that I really took away the imagery I left with after reading this book, which is more of a workbook, which is important. I have this image that conflicts are like tangled bars. Hysterical conflicts are like tangled balls of yarn or like a knot in your necklace where tugging on one side of it will only tighten it. And in order to undo the knot, you have to first acknowledge that there are two ends, and you have to investigate the knot itself. You have to identify both sides, this end and that end, and gently, from both sides, detangle it. You might be thinking, what if one side doesn't want to undo? What if one side doesn't want to loosen?
[00:10:15] To that, I would tell you there's really no world in which knowing more is less good. There's no world where more understanding is less good. So trying to understand why the knot is there in the first place, is it because this part was here and that part was here? Is it because of this? Like, even knowing that may give you a sense of resolve? I think at the core, this book teaches you how to actually resolve problems. But even in the event that you can't, even in the event that your partner in this conversation doesn't want to budge, this book has a lot of insights and techniques for, you know, finding. Finding resolve, even when there seems not to be, which is, I think, an essential concept if you're going to live in this world. I'm going to start by sharing with you these seven questions, seven questions that Dana gives to start the understanding process, to start the detangling process. But again, what I really want for you to do is buy this book and use all of the tools in it. Okay? Dana starts off by encouraging us to learn about the conflict before we jump in and try to solve it. In other words, look at the knot from all angles before you try tugging at any little part of it. And she encourages that we lead that process with willingness, which is one of my favey, favey fifies, which means feelings. And I'm just going to blaze right on through that. Okay? Dana encourages that we ask questions with the intent of understanding, not the intent of being right or proving someone else wrong.
[00:12:03] And this can be a challenge, especially in those heated conversations where our human minds love to have a winner and a loser, our dance minds love to have a winner and a loser.
[00:12:16] But think about your dance mind in the context of a dance class, in the context of a learning environment, not a performing environment.
[00:12:26] When you're in a dance class, you ask questions to understand, not to prove someone wrong. Unless you were that kid, which I kind of was. That kid who would ask a question that was like, so is the arm out or is the arm correct? Because I think some people in this room, Jennifer, are doing the arm out, and I am doing it up. So for the room, could you clarify? I was sometimes that kid. But what I'm trying to point out is that most often in learning spaces, which is what conflict is. It is a learning space. We ask questions to understand, not to win or lose. And so if we can stop performing in our conflict spaces, I think we'll all be better off. Another gift Dana gives us is to listen as our best self and speak as our best self, speak to the other party's best self. So keep that in mind as you pick the questions that make the most sense for you in your situation. Or fuck it, ask all seven of these questions, because I think there's value to every single one of these seven questions that Dana gives us for entering into the conversation. Okay, number one, what is your understanding of this situation?
[00:13:44] Like, what do you know about this situation? Baseline, where are you at? What do you know about this? Number two, what is the most important thing to you in this situation? What is the thing that is most important to you here regarding this topic? What matters the most to you? Number three, why is that important to you?
[00:14:06] What have you experienced that has made that part of it so important? I'm so curious about why this part of this thing matters to you so much.
[00:14:16] Number four, what do you think a good outcome might look like? It's really easy for all of us to gripe about what is wrong, but when it comes to having good solutions, it's really not easy. And I'm not asking to prove that you don't have one. I'm curious, and in a second, I'm going to answer this question for myself. Question number five. What are the obstacles of reaching that outcome? What stands in the way? Like, why aren't we already there?
[00:14:43] And then number six, what would you like to see happen now? What is a reasonable next step? What can we do now to get closer to that outcome? And why is that step important to you? Like why? What would you like to see happen now is number six and very closely related. Why is that part important to you? I think that as a jumping off point will give you space to communicate and a launchpad for you to answer those questions for yourself. So, number one, ask those seven questions or whichever relate most to your circumstance, and then answer them from your point of view for that other person to hear.
[00:15:27] That is the best place to start. I can't think of a better place to start. And that's where I'm gonna leave you when it comes to, like a read aloud from the book. But I will also tell you that Dana encourages and I strongly co sign when you're engaging in conflict. Don't listen for attack.
[00:15:46] Don't listen for the punches or the ways in which this person is hurting you. Listen for what that person cares about.
[00:15:54] Don't listen to the attack, listen to what is fueling the attack. Listen for their why.
[00:16:00] She encourages also that you inform, not attack back. After you've done the listening, inform, don't attack. If you can listen past the attack, then you can definitely inform past the attack. From that place, we're all in a better position to resolve. Again, speaking from the best version of yourself and to the best version of them. This is peak importance, y'all put your grandma in the room. I like to imagine that my Yaya is listening.
[00:16:31] My grandma, like how would I behave? What would the tone of my voice be if my grandma was watching?
[00:16:39] It's a slightly more compassionate version of me. It's more kind, it's more patient. It says fuck way less. And that might help you in your conversations as well. Dana also encourages us not to act out, not to lash out from our feelings in a destructive way, but rather feel them, process them. I have good podcast episodes for this.
[00:17:03] Use them as signals. Things that are pointing you in the direction of your needs and interests that you can communicate. Feelings are not obstacles that you need to overcome when it comes to conflict. They're like indicators. They are a check engine signal that points towards your needs and your interests and if you can find a way to communicate those without attack, then again, you're much better poised to find resolve in this situation.
[00:17:31] That really, friends, is just the half of it.
[00:17:35] I wanted to drop in before the holidays and give this book a glowing review and encourage you to read it yourself. Buy it for yourself and for your family members. I really am encouraging you to be better prepared this holiday season when it comes to discussing these important issues which Changing the conversation is not the way to change the problem.
[00:17:58] Changing the conversation is the way you find a resolve. You have to change the way you show up to these conflicts in your life. Again. Can't recommend it enough. Dana Casperson Holy smokes. Thank you so much for this gift. I'm deeply appreciative. I bought this book when I was going through a divorce. It was helpful then. It's even more helpful now.
[00:18:18] I come back to it time and time again and that's with a whole lot of dance training behind me. Dancers, we are built for this. That is what I have for you today. If you're loving the pod, please be sure to leave a review or a rating. Click the bell for notifications.
[00:18:34] Visit wordsthatmoveme.com to find out more ways that we could work together and of course get out there into the world, resolve all the conflicts and keep it super funky. Talk to you soon. This podcast was produced by me with the help of many Big big love to our Executive Assistant and Editor Riley Higgins. Our Communications Manager is Ory Vajadares. Our music is by Max Winnie, logo and brand design by Bri Reitz, thumbnails and marketing by Fiona Small. You can make your tax deductible donations towards that Move Me. Thanks to our fiscal sponsor, the Dance Resource center and also many thanks to you. I'm so glad you're here and if you're digging the pod, please share it, leave a review and rating. And if you want to coach with me and the many marvelous members of the Words that Move me community, visit wordsthatmoveme.com if you're simply curious to know more about me and the work I do outside of this podcast, visit thedanawilson.com.
