64. Money March Pt. 2 CHOREOGRAPHERS

March 17, 2021 01:21:35
64. Money March Pt. 2 CHOREOGRAPHERS
Words That Move Me with Dana Wilson
64. Money March Pt. 2 CHOREOGRAPHERS

Mar 17 2021 | 01:21:35

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Show Notes

Let’s talk ORGANIZATION! Choreographers and their teams (assistant choreographers, associate choreographers, co-choreographers etc.) along with production assistants are the ONLY category of workers on Film/ TV/ Commercial sets that do not have Union representation.  What does that mean? It means no minimum daily rate, no Health & Pension contributions, no residual structures, no penalties for overtime, or turnaround time.  Why does that matter? Because DANCE and the people who make it are pillars of popular culture (to say the very very least). 

In this episode, I talk to two time Emmy award winning choreographer, Kathryn Burns and Craig Baylis.  Craig is a former dancer who has gone onto work in damn near every sector of entertainment from Artist Development & Tour Marketing to Product Management and even SAGAFTRA member and Staff.

In this episode we scratch the surface of several deep and delicate issues from daily minimum rates (and what’s so great about em) to supply and demand, licensing, and even copyright of choreography.

The learning curve set ahead of choreographers is steep.  We must teach ourselves AND the record labels and studio big wigs on the other side of the negotiation table what we do and what that is worth.  Grab a pen and paper, and get ready to study up!

Quicklinks:


Choreographers Alliance: https://www.choreographersalliance.org/
Dancers Alliance: https://www.dancersalliance.org/
Sagaftra: https://www.sagaftra.org/

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 00:00:03 This is words that move me, the podcast where movers and shakers, like you get the information and inspiration. You need to navigate your creative career with clarity and confidence. I am your host master mover, Dana Wilson. And if you're someone that loves to learn, laugh and is looking to rewrite the starving artist story, then sit tight, but don't stop moving because you're in the right place. Speaker 2 00:00:32 My friend, my friend, welcome to the podcast. I'm Dana. This is worth the move me. I am jazzed about this episode. Um, I got to talk today to not one, but two friends about one of my favorite subjects. And that is choreography and choreographers. You know what, if I'm, to be very honest with you, I think it's possible that the reason why I love dance so much, and the reason that I have become a choreographer is because I love people. And that's what this is all about. This is why we're here. And I'm so thrilled to introduce you to two really truly incredible people doing very important work in the dance choreography and organization space. Um, so I, I'm not, I'm not going to talk too much. I want to get right to it. But first let's talk wins. If you're new to the pod, we do wins at the top of every episode. Speaker 2 00:01:30 I'm going to tell you something, that's going well in my world. And then I'm going to yield the floor and I'm going to encourage you to speak. Yes. Use your voice, say out loud, if you would, what's going well in your world. Doubly encourage you to do this. If you're in public for a cheap thrill, okay? My win for today, oddly enough is not dance related. I am announcing to you here. As I have announced to my husband, just moments ago that I am in the process of adopting a dog. I don't know which dog yet. I mean, really the process is quite early. I'm early in the process of adopting a dog. I've always been a dog person. I love dogs. I haven't had one this entire time. I've lived in Los Angeles. I'm away from my home in Colorado where we've always had dagos. And uh, so here I am 15 years without a dog. And I'm deciding now's the time I'm in the market. I actually recently took a quiz about what kind of dog best suits my personality. And I'm going to let the listeners guess what the answer or what, what my best fit was to that quiz. Oh my goodness. Gracious. Not what you would expect. All right. So that's my win. I am becoming Speaker 0 00:02:49 The person who has a dog. Now you go, what's going well in your world. Speaker 2 00:03:12 Awesome. Congratulations. I'm so happy for you. Please do keep winning. Keep it up. All right. Let's get into this. Shall we let's talk choreographers? Yes. This is part two of money March. We are talking about choreographers and this is not the conversation you might be expecting to hear. This is however the legendary cat burns and the one and only Craig Bayliss, demystifying, and discussing some very important facets of the life of a choreographer. In 2021 caveat, things are changing. The earth is moving. Things are changing very fast. So you want to grab a pen and piece of paper to take some notes. This is a good one. Enjoy. Speaker 0 00:04:06 Hi. Speaker 2 00:04:06 Hi. Thank you so much for being here on the podcast today. This is words that move me. I'm Dana. And today I am joined by the one in OMI, Kat burns and the fabulous Craig Bayliss. Thank you guys, both for being, Speaker 3 00:04:20 Hey. Hey, thanks for having us. I say us as if we're a package, well take credit for all of Craig's knowledge. Speaker 2 00:04:35 Well, okay. So at this point, I, the most talking that I've done with Craig is in the 20 minutes before this episode, but I've been listening to you speak for the last couple of weeks on these, uh, weekly clubhouse conversations that cat has been hosting. That's where I became familiar with you. Your point of view, especially about organizing. Um, and I became an instant fan Craig. So I'm really glad that you're here. Cat, you are a long-time friend of mine and of the podcast, some jazz that you're back, um, and maybe cat, we'll start with you since you more or less know the show flow over here. I would love for you to introduce yourselves. Speaker 3 00:05:18 Hey, what's up? I'm cat. Speaker 2 00:05:22 We just took the air out of that tired. And this isn't fun. Speaker 3 00:05:28 Hey guys, thanks for having me, Dana. Um, that's me trying to make my podcast voice a little cooler than I feel like it normally is self hate. It's just the comment on a high vocal range. I think last time we'll sidebar again, when I was on the podcast last, I think you'd only done a few weeks or something. You didn't have very many at all. And I was, yeah. Wow. I mean, I'm so proud of you on everything and you're doing so much for the community. Like you always have. Um, and congratulations productive during this terrible time. Speaker 4 00:06:08 Yes, indeed. Productive is one of the words for sure. Thank you. Speaker 3 00:06:14 You were already scheduled through the next year and a half. I'm just, I'm certain of it. And I think last time I was like, Hey, I have a choreographer, which was true, but very short, uh, I will say, um, I am Kat, Catherine Burns people call me cat cause they can't spell it. Or it's just faster on set to say cat. So there we have it. Uh, I am a choreographer and I received two Emmys for my work, which is absolutely mind blowing, um, and the first ever for scripted, which is awesome, which is a new category for the television Academy. I wasn't aware of that. Yeah. So you gotta be the first that's something that work was recognized for a show called crazy. Ex-girlfriend uh, I came up in the UCB community effort, citizens brigade, which is a comedy theater. So for a long time, I guess I would describe myself as a comedian, so to speak that the sketch comedy and musical comedy, um, I'd had a show for a decade called quick and funny musicals where we put on a new short musical every month for a month. Speaker 3 00:07:14 And then I was creating my own monthly show called the radical Taggle dance hour. And we were about to kick off the second of the new monthly show, which was a phenomenally fun variety show songs about dance, thinking about dancing bits, about dance of which Dana was one of the regular Tagalongs and amazing contributor to the show. And obviously that got shut down yesterday. It was like, show's canceled. I mean, yesterday last year you get it right. And then other than that fun stuff I've been, I guess I could say a strong advocate for choreographers Alliance and I guess leader in that new movement. And I am a co governor for the television Academy. So for me and the clubhouse and meeting brilliant people, let me call you brilliant Craig, uh, like Craig, I, um, I just kind of wanted to open up the information and stuff that I've learned. That seems kind of daunting. And I don't want to say political or jargony, but kind of those things of the business of all of the show business. And so that's what brought me to that clubhouse conversation. So that's a longer intro of me, but hi, Speaker 4 00:08:22 That was lovely. Oh, it was just like juicy, personal, funny to the point, but also I'm not left. Like, um, I don't still don't know who this person is. I feel good. This is great. Speaker 3 00:08:36 Meanwhile, I I'm like a bee farmer this whole time and I just never mentioned that. I wish it that'd be cool. I would find myself more interesting if I was Speaker 4 00:08:51 Most as interesting as beef armor, which is, Speaker 3 00:08:56 That's what I thought I heard initially I will. I do make beef armor on his side. It's hard to sell in LA, Texas is a big hit, big hit in Texas. I'm so glad you're here, cat. Okay, Greg, take it away. Tell us a little bit about you. Speaker 5 00:09:12 Hey, so, uh, first of all, thank you for having me, Dana. I appreciate it. I'm humbled, uh, with the opportunity to sit here and have this conversation with you and our brilliant friend Kat. Uh, my name is Craig Bayless. Uh, I am no longer a professional dancer or once choreographer. Uh, but I started my business. I started my career in the business as a dancer and choreographer. Uh, I come from the era of the nineties. Uh, I dance for a host of people in music videos. I toured for seven years, I choreographed a number of known recording artists, uh, at that time from boys to men to Shaunice, uh, I decided towards the end of the nineties that I wanted to do something else, something else with my career behind the scenes. Uh, and that decision was based on, uh, my hankering to go to college. Speaker 5 00:10:11 So I quit dance in 1997, literally four months after I finally got my sag card, uh, uh, got my sag card as an actor in 97. And I said, this is cool, but I need to have something to fall back on. So I decided to go away to college. I went away to college and I got my degree in broadcast journalism at Southern university, a historically black college in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Uh, I had no intent of being an anchor, although my professors swore that I would be an anchor and I said, I don't want to do that, but I just want to get through with school. I got through with school, got my degree, and I moved back to LA with an intent to work in the music business. My goal was to work on the other side of the camera, where I saw the folks that were looking at the viewfinders and standing next to the director and understand that space behind the scenes, that space that I saw from the purview of a dancer and choreographer when I was a performer. Speaker 5 00:11:14 Uh, so fast-forward, uh, I got my first job in the music business at Warner brothers records, uh, where I worked with a host of artists, um, uh, started out in radio promotions was, uh, promoted to a marketing coordinator, then quickly promoted to a product manager, marketing director, same thing, and then moved into a department car artist development and tour marketing did that for a while, but a couple more things in the business. My last industry job was that Sony music at Epic records as artist development into our marketing, uh, director of their department there in New York. Um, so, um, when, uh, I departed my profession as a dancer, I had an intent that if I got this wacko opportunity to transition from professional dancer to so-called executive in the music business, I am going to, you know, uh, behave as a agent of dancers inside the record company, one tr inside the record industry, I should say first, trying to figure out what is the misunderstanding of who dancers and choreographers are? Speaker 5 00:12:35 What is the struggle? Why are they always trying to fight to be justly compensated protected and treated like the professionals that they are? That was my, that was my secret goal. Uh, so anyway, fast forward, having worked for two major record companies, I think I have a pretty good idea of what the issue has been, but I find that the dance community figured that out as well. And in 2012, when they organized, successfully and arrived at their first music video contract, something that we did us dancers we're, uh, we're hoping for we're fighting for back in the nineties and we had never arrived at that. So my opportunity to celebrate the success of what you guys uh achieved, uh, was to ensure that in my work at the record company, that I will enforce, or at least continue to educate my colleagues in the business as to what this means and how it's painless to us as a record company. Speaker 5 00:13:32 And it does not fiscally cripple the record company at all to basically pay dancers what they're supposed to be paid. Uh, so fast forward left Epic records in 2015, uh, and after meeting a gentleman by the name of Steve <inaudible>, who was the union staffer and executive and spirit of what you guys achieved as a dance community by virtue of that contract, uh, after meeting him in 2012 through truly social media, the union decided that they were looking for an organizer that had music industry experience. And Steve recall that I had been working in the music industry and I used to be a dancer. And Steve asked me, would I be interested in coming to work for the union? And the opportunity that I got to work for the union was based not on the salary, because I wasn't making anything near what I was making, you know, uh, as a professional in the music industry, but Steve laid out some pretty invaluable aspects of the job. Speaker 5 00:14:42 You actually get to look out for the best interests of performing artists, specifically recording artists. And since you were a professional dancer and you understand the rudiments of what dancers Alliance was and what the dance community is, you know, I would like you to also work on the organizing, uh, projects or campaigns as it pertains to dancers as well. So here was an opportunity to be able to look out for, to work in the interest of performers, essentially the school that I come from and not have to apologize about it, big contrast from working at a record company, you have to be careful, right, Speaker 4 00:15:24 Right, right. No secret, hidden agendas. Speaker 5 00:15:27 Exactly. So I took the job and this is essentially how I had the opportunity to learn about the touring agreement. God bless you. Dana Wilson, Speaker 4 00:15:39 Uh, Justin Timberlake, for sure. And Speaker 5 00:15:41 Certainly God, God bless, uh, Justin Timberlake for having the, uh, having the gumption to understand how painless this was to him and how beneficial this was to the people that are his are his, uh, his peers, professional dancers and choreographers, uh, and also singers. And this is also in, through sag after I had the opportunity to meet the Kat burns, the Tony testers, the Elizabeth Barrios hooks. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So, uh, you know, Steve charged me with the, uh, with the prospects of figuring out how I can work with, uh, the choreographers and arriving at the type of protections that they actually deserve as well. Uh, and quite frankly, uh, my tenure at, at, uh, at sag after working with the choreographers was more of a study for me than it was a, uh, a managerial position. I got to learn a lot more about spaces that I wasn't quite as familiar with as far as contracts were concerned. And contrast that to the flip side of it, which is the music industry, which is, which is, which has culminated into what cat has caused in the past couple of weeks, a very wide three 60 conversation about the space of choreography and the opportunities that we're now talking about. Speaker 4 00:17:12 Yes, that is what we're here for today. This kind of three 60 view. Um, but I'm going to start from like a worm's eye view. We're going to just like at street level demystify and, um, just explain some acronyms, number one, vocab, a little bit of terminology that from the outside, looking in might be intimidating or daunting, but, um, I've Googled and I'll ask you guys to keep an eye on my blind spots. And as I kind of, I'll just blast all, I'll just blast through, uh, a little bit of this vocab, Google our new, uh, cyclopedia Britannica. Oh, for sure. Which, by the way, we had a house, the full, the whole jam, and I remember those were heavy and they had a smell and they had a touch. I loved looking stuff up in books. Um, okay. Vocab. So, um, I will just blast through a couple of these very sexy acronyms. Speaker 4 00:18:10 And then if you guys pick up on a blind spot or, or an area where I might, um, or where you might be able to contribute more information, I welcomed that openly, gladly. Uh, okay. So last week we were talking specifically dancers and money. So not even the working conditions side of contracts, but really just, what does it answer make? How do they make it, how might they manage it? Um, so we, we, we discussed sag AFTRA. We discussed D a, we discussed P and H and we discussed IRAs, which we did not go into much depth on by the way, but someday we'll have a, a real financial professional come to talk about your individual retirement accounts. Um, so today I want to start by talking about some of the other key players in terms of labor unions, we'll start with DGA or the directors Guild of America. Speaker 4 00:19:07 That's the labor organization that represents directors and members of the directorial team. So not just the person that wears the hat that says I'm the director, but their teams, um, that work in film, televisions, televisions, film, television commercials, um, documentaries, news, sports, uh, things like that. And then we have the, a F M this is the American Federation of musicians, which is the union that represents as you might imagine, yes, instrumental musicians. But this is interesting because we're called the, we, they are called the American Federation of musicians, but it also does include Canada, which I thought was very interesting. And I did not know that, um, jumping over another super fun acronym is the S D C SDC stands for stage directors and choreographers society. Other unknown fact, this used to be known as the society of stage directors and choreographers SSDC, but now we just slop off the first S because we're lazy, but that union represents directors and choreographers, but specifically those working on Broadway or national tours, even off-Broadway shows or various installations or residencies, um, even including dinner, theaters, or regional theaters, um, things of that nature throughout the United States, that's just us. Speaker 4 00:20:40 Um, okay. So keeping on the acronym, track the track rhythm next step, uh, big, big player. Thank you. I love the word together. Um, I believe they're actually called portmanteaus. I think when you slice two words together, I'll have to ask a real, um, okay. Pushing forward the Alliance of motion, picture and television producers. So this is the big, big collective that bargains. Um, it's, it's essentially the bargaining representative for virtually any industry-wide production between the production and the Guild or the union that represents the talent that will be working on that project. So it's the amp PTP talking to SAG-AFTRA or the amp PTP talking to DGA or talking to AFM. So that's sort of the, the role that AMT a M P T P plays in that whole picture. Um, am I, am I missing anything or Craig or cat, do you want to go deeper on any one of those? So, you know, Speaker 5 00:21:50 Expound on the MPTP just a little bit, uh, certainly not as a representative of the MPTP, the MPTP for one is not a union. Uh, they are a trade organization. They are, the MPTP is basically comprised of all of the producers of television and film. Uh, they are the, they are the, uh, the industries, employers of the performers with whom the union negotiates with. So, uh, I think it's important for, you know, for our listeners and, you know, for us to understand that they're not a union, they basically represent the employee community, uh, that, uh, we've all worked for at some point. And the contracts that sag AFTRA, uh, including the net code contract, uh, the theatrical contract, so on and so forth, they're all affected by the collective bargaining that happens between the and PTP and SAG-AFTRA, uh, while I can, while I won't get involved into the, uh, uh, into the technicalities of the contract or whatever, it's very important for us to, to be aware of exactly who they are. They're, they're, they're the big dog in the room, uh, that the union negotiates with Speaker 4 00:23:07 That is huge. Thank you so much for clearing that up. Speaker 3 00:23:10 And is it fair to say if you have a covered contract or a CBA or collective bargaining agreement that, that has been approved by the EG and PTP PTP contract, Speaker 5 00:23:23 And it's generally between, uh, the and PTP. Yes. Speaker 4 00:23:27 Cool, amazing. See how much clarity do we have already? Um, well, it's about to get, Speaker 3 00:23:34 We are so smart. <inaudible> that works too well. I'm Speaker 4 00:23:46 About to ask way more questions than I have answers for. So, um, have the Googles on deck. Um, okay. I think possibly the only other, um, like technical term that might be a little bit mysterious that I, I know will come up in this conversation is this concept of work for hire, or it's sometimes broken down into the acronym, w F H um, work for hire who, uh, is a sticky one. It's it is basically an exception to the general copyright rule that says the person who creates the work is the legally recognized author of the work. Um, in the context of this conversation where we're talking about choreographers in their choreography, um, when a choreographer is engaged as a work for hire, or they're creating a work for hire according to copyright law in the U S if a work is made for hire in quotes, the employer, not the employee is considered the legal author of that work. Speaker 4 00:24:53 So take a second and let that sink in, and we'll circle back to work for hire in a second. Um, but I w I would actually love to start this conversation since I did talk so much about, um, the union and dancers Alliance in last week's episode, what I want to talk about and introduce an idea that might be new to many of my listeners who are primarily dancers, is that choreographers for the screen don't actually have union coverage. We don't have it. It blows my mind. Um, so maybe Craig, I'll start off with you as somebody who's worked in many different sectors of the entertainment industry, but worked with SAG-AFTRA for several years. Could you tell me what, what would union coverage mean for a choreographer? Speaker 6 00:25:41 Well, union coverage would mean for choreographer, uh, and I, and I am not speaking on behalf of choreographers in this context. I'm speaking, you know, on behalf, I'm speaking as a member of SAG-AFTRA, I'm speaking as a person that has enjoyed some of the benefits of the many contracts that SAG-AFTRA union coverage for choreographers would mean to choreographers what it means for professional dancers. It would mean the same thing that it means for the actors. It would mean the same thing that it would mean for the background actors. It wouldn't mean the same thing that it means for stunt performers. It would mean the same thing that it means for vocalists. It would mean the same thing that it means for every other performer that is covered under the contract. So it is work, uh, and it is work that is justly, uh, deserving of, Speaker 3 00:26:45 Right? It also means the same for the costumers and the gaffers and the DPS, which are the directors of photographers, literally everybody except for a PA, which is a production assistant is covered by a union except for choreographers. Right? Speaker 4 00:27:02 So what we're talking about here is not only collective bargaining and, and decided upon fair wages, but we're also talking about protection in terms of working conditions, turnaround times, um, healthcare and pension contributions, residual structures, stuff like that does not exist for choreographers as of today. And this is, this is a huge deal. So Kat you've started having these clubhouse conversations around the subject of, you know, choreographers finding a category somewhere at some union that will represent us in our work. Um, what, what seems to be like the temperature of the choreographer community? How do people feel about doing this and how do you feel about doing this and by doing this, I mean, like winning union representation, Speaker 3 00:27:57 I think as a community, it's been talked about ad nauseum. So some people are a little first to being like, we're talking about it more on clubhouse. Uh, but there always seems to be a new group of people that are stunned to learn a lot of information about choreographers and the work and the lack of representation and protection. So it's really overdue. I mean, yeah, the community has been wanting, uh, representation for a really long time. I do think it's a little tricky because even within the community of choreography for television, specifically scripted television versus a variety show or an award show, that's televised on a network versus artists work for a music video or artists work for a tour or a commercial, they have different needs. I will say the biggest difference is between scripted television and artists work there. They're kind of two different worlds of which, I mean, we're working in scripted television points to the script, obviously. Speaker 3 00:28:58 So the, the work for hire for that is like, I'm kind of okay with I'm like, well, yeah, I mean, I'm working under these conditions, but a lot of times choreographers for artists will create everything. I mean, you can do under scripted as well, but I'm just saying, and then their work goes on specifically on tour. Like what you do for a music video one day for that day rate will all, it will be all at the choreographer will receive for the life of that movement, which blows my mind. It just doesn't seem right when the SDC has figured it out. Like the East coast has figured it out right on the West coast. We're like, huh. Speaker 4 00:29:31 So let's talk about that a little bit. So on the East coast for a Broadway musical, for example, you have a choreographer, Andy blank and Bueller, let's say for Hamilton, who, who has, there's a point system, and he has a point for being a choreographer on that show. Um, actually, I, it might be a fraction of a point. I don't know how the point system works. You guys I'll just be very transparent. Um, so for sales made from the Hamilton show, touring cast included, Andy sees a portion of that. And in my eyes, that is the world that it should be right. That is Andy's work out there working in the world. Um, and you know, we see the same thing for on-camera talent in commercials and films here, anything past first usage or that initial use period, uh, I will, I, the performer will see royalty for, and I, it blows my mind that I can be enjoying the, the, the choreography of, Oh my gosh, why is this the first thing coming to my mind, Speaker 3 00:30:39 Kenny, Kenny Ortega, Speaker 4 00:30:41 Hocus Pocus, the Sanderson's doing that walk down the street. And I'm like, I've watched this a billion times and I'm sure it can eat, or it is doing just fine. He's very talented, very capable human being. But come on, that's a unique example by the way, cause Kenny Ortega also directed that film. Um, but I, I believe that there should be a residual structure and, and other protections in place for choreographers and where might we find it? So we just talked about the STC. We talked about the directors Guild. We talked about SAG-AFTRA where do choreographers fit? And that's not such an easy question to answer, right? Cause sag, after we're talking on camera talent, we're talking audio, right. Recording artists. Um, and that's not a choreographer, so I don't know, cat, where do you think we'll fit? Speaker 3 00:31:34 Well, Craig actually w well, where we fit best as a different question, um, Craig can speak on the, the audio. It's also audio visual is what he said to me and description of SAG-AFTRA. And maybe I'll pass it over to him to describe that more. But this is a big question. The ask is simple. We want set daily minimum daily, like minimum. So if you know, if you are an experienced choreographer and you've worked decades, maybe you get double scale, but the base minimum so that the producer can't do anything lower than a minimum, at least know where you're starting from. We want PNH not contributions towards it. If you've been in the union for five years, like PNH, pension, and health, and then we want a residual structure. So a small percentage of the shared pool is great and it wouldn't take money out of anyone else's pockets. Speaker 3 00:32:23 Um, and with those things, you know, within a contractor's like holiday pay, what is it like if you were kind of holiday? What is it like if you work more than eight hours, all of this is like doesn't exist in the choreography world. So the ask is pretty simple. Everyone seems to want it SAG-AFTRA has actually been really helpful in working with us for years to try and make this happen. I will say. And then, but the other question is, do we do, do we do a choreographer's guilt, right? Which would be, that could look over lots of things. Do we join the DGA for, for tourists could work as well. Um, is there a section of STC that could then cover some tour work? Cause they do have contracts available for that kind of stuff. But, um, I think a unified voice within the choreography community is still the aim that will get us to what we want. Speaker 3 00:33:16 So Craig, very clearly it said a lot of times it's up to you guys, it's up to the choreographers to band together and he's laid out some really simple organizing things. But I don't even think about like, for example, if you mean you Dana and myself and let's say three other choreographers are all hired separately on an award show, let's say, and we find out who else is doing it. Although we never in rehearsal together, we never talked to each other. We're in our own Island, but we under choreography spirit talk about our contracts, talk about how much we're getting paid. Um, we talked to each other that alone isn't happening. We talked to each other and say, what are you getting? What are you getting <inaudible>? And then we realized, Oh, we're not being treated fairly. This isn't okay for this product that we're delivering. Speaker 3 00:34:05 This is going to go on and live for years and years and years. So we, us five or six, I forget how many I said can write a letter and say, we are asking from the production who, who we know this and this and this and this. And you know, obviously you want to be reasonable to get what you want and it should, our asks are reasonable. Then you guys can go to your old producers. You don't have to wait for your agents to do it. If your agents can negotiate, whatever they want, but legally they can't tell you what to take. And I think a lot of people understand that where like, Oh, my agent said, it's my agent. And it's like, no, your agent can only advise. And it's actually illegal for them to tell you what to take. Is that right? Craig? And I saying this correctly, Speaker 6 00:34:48 That is correct. And can you mind if I expound please? So solidarity, you know, is such a sexy word. Uh, we should've put it in the vocab thing off. It is, you know, solidarity is such a sexy word and that's unfortunate that it's the sexy word. It's, it's a real thing. Like, you know, what, what Kat just laid out, you know, is an opportunity that happens all the time, where there are five separate choreographers. The Grammy's is coming up. Grammy's is coming up this weekend. If I'm not mistaken. So there's going to be five choreographers. That's done work. That's doing work this week for the Grammys. Cat's not saying that she should know what Dana negotiated cat saying that we should at least know that there is a consistent scale for us to come to work that day. That's it are we, are we so, so the five of us that are working this job for whatever show it is, do we, are we all comfortable with the fact that we're all at least making a uniform minimum scale for our work? Speaker 6 00:36:02 Anything that we've negotiated above scale is essentially no one's business. Okay. Cat's earned what she's earned throughout the years. Dana has earned what she's earned throughout the years at any other experience or emerging choreographer. They design what their value is based on their demand as a choreographer. But before we go to work, have we agreed as a community? Let me take that term back. Have we agreed as an industry, as the community of professionals that we are going to work for a minimum scale and it's not until we arrive at that consistent form of solidarity in the community that producers are going to hear a uniform, a uniform voice, more importantly, respect what cat is saying, because Dana's not saying the same thing. If what cat is saying, and this is just basic. So this is basic like a sociology. If cat's saying the same thing that Dan is saying, then maybe they're saying the right thing. Speaker 6 00:37:09 Because me as a producer and as a director or a manager, I, I'm not a professional dancer. I'm not a professional choreographer. I don't even understand the economy of the dance and choreography industry. That's why we just, uh, uh, what do you call it? A spitball, whatever our negotiating, you know, uh, uh, concerns are with dancers and choreographers. We don't know we're supposed to be paying them. We just know we don't want to pay them. So, so, so to what Kat is saying, solidarity is solidarity is really the foundation of causing the community's voice to resonate with the decision-makers. So let me not impose on the choreographers and the community of professionals that's doing this work and, uh, insert my personal opinion on where I think they fit. Okay. So, so I w I won't do that, but there are quite a few choices and opportunities in the entertainment sphere for the choreographers to be received, respected and accepted. Speaker 6 00:38:24 That's right. The bottom line. Okay. I have some ideas that I will continue, uh, advocating in the interest verbally vocally, uh, to my friends that are in the choreographer, in the choreography committee. And I will continue, you know, uh, reiterating my thoughts on that because I worked for sag AFTRA, and I understand that sag after edits core believes in the protection for the choreographers and sag after it hit the screen actors Guild and the American Federation of television and radio artists, historically, they are founded on representing for AFTRA, the voices and the television performers, and the screen actors Guild for performers in front of the camera in Fiato trickle productions, uh, film, motion, pictures. That is who they are. So, so there's an elephant in the room that has not chosen to raise their hand and accept the opportunity to Lin, not, not to land, to extend protections to this community. Speaker 6 00:39:54 And therein lies the question, where is that fit? The precedence is most proximate in SAG-AFTRA because sag after represents professional dancers and most choreographers in this business, world-class choreographers, they were born into this industry as professional dancers. Chad received her membership in the organization through CA through, through the commercials contract that sag after I received my membership at SAC Fu a on-screen, uh, principal acting role on a television show through after, as a dancer on another television show. So we've all enjoyed the coverage of these contracts as performers and what the community must continue to accept is that they are creative executives as choreographers, and there needs to be a understanding. And I actually know that cat understand this. And I know, I know that a host of, uh, our other esteem leaders in the choreographer's community understand that their role as choreographers are, are, are not that distant from that at met that distant from that of the filmmaker, the director, the producers, and so on and so forth. So, uh, I threw that out there for you guys to chill on. Yeah, I think I would, I am picking up Speaker 4 00:41:34 Is that we could go anywhere, but we won't go anywhere unless we're unified. We won't go anywhere without solidarity across the board. And something interesting that I really hadn't thought about until you just said it, Kat is that no union representation is required to write a letter on behalf of five people on behalf of five people on behalf of six people, we're letting you know, producer that we are or are not okay with this baseline minimum rate we are, or are not okay with the overtime or the hours or the safety conditions on this particular project. On behalf of us five, we'd like to advocate for something else we'd propose this solution that doesn't require a union. So I that's, that's a really inspiring thing because we don't. Yeah, please, Speaker 6 00:42:28 Uh, uh, you know, uh, your face lit up, as you said that, and I want you to know that, you know, as corny as this sounds like my, like my heart lit up, as I saw you exp reiterate that, and I'm going to tell you something, there is no unionization or organizing is not possible without solidarity. Speaker 4 00:42:53 It's the one requirement, isn't it? It's Speaker 6 00:42:55 The one requirement. And if solidarity was a, you know, was a behavior of all workers, if it was a behavior of all workers, unions probably wouldn't have to exist. Unions exist because of greed. Okay. And hyper capitalism. That's why unions exists. I always say this that I, I actually, I tell people this and they're like, what? But I'm going to say what I tell people. I don't believe in unions. What do you mean you don't believe in unions? And I'm like, I don't believe that unions should have to exist. I wish that when Dana went to work, her employer understood what her worth was and understood that making the living was not just her salary, but was her ability to make sure that she has PNH contributions for her and her husband. This is why I don't believe in unions. Okay. So when I say that, I do do I do that to, to startle people, but there is an altruistic, uh, strategy behind me saying that it's saying that like my friend Kat just said, if we were able to behave, uh, and exercise solidarity, we're able to achieve most of what we want to achieve. Speaker 6 00:44:14 Right. Most of the time. And here's the flip side. The second thing that I wanted to say was that I've never met her dancer. I've never, I've never met a choreographer that shows this field to get rich. Speaker 4 00:44:28 I talked about it last week, as a matter of fact. Nope, very rarely. However, the odd and interesting thing to me is that most of the time, if we abandoned this dream, this creative life, it's usually because of the money, but I want to circle back to something that you just mentioned, Craig, and that was this belief or disbelief in unions. Um, and, and I honestly, I, I think I may have been born with union boots. Um, my mom is a flight attendant, but I have been in, in various uncomfortable situations. Um, also I'm a middle child. I delight in seeing both sides of a conversation. And I'm wondering what you might say to somebody who presents you with this argument, like, listen, minimum rates become the maximum rate. And so I don't want to be a part of a union. I don't subscribe to that. I, my established choreographer rate is so far beyond what you're talking about as a minimum, no way. I just will not agree with that. Um, how what's, what's your angle on that perspective? Speaker 5 00:45:36 Okay. Uh, my ankle, well, first of all, I want to be clear. I am the conceptual speak that I just share with you guys about the union. Be clear, everyone, right? Speaker 4 00:45:48 You're pro union, but you, but you really are pro humans Speaker 5 00:45:54 A hundred percent, Speaker 3 00:45:55 But it's so weird how you just said you're, you're Craig you're pro union, your anti-this, right? Like he's become political talking points. It's like, thank God. I'm not running for any kind of office, because one sentence can ruin your whole day. Speaker 5 00:46:08 It, it it's you as, as a word person and as a, you know, as a, as a journalism major, like I, so I'm very much aware of that. So, yes. So I want it to clear that up. Be very, very clear. Okay. Speaker 3 00:46:22 And on the, on the political, just to nod for people to think about, um, you know, we're talking about unions that are entertainment specific, but this all points back to the national labor relations board, the NLRB, when we talk about unionizing and we talk about acronyms, we have to understand this is all pointing to a government mandated rule that can change every four years. Yeah. Right? Yes. So climate political climate does impact us totally professionally. Sorry. Just wanted to add that little political thing in. Speaker 5 00:46:56 We should definitely stick a pin in that right there and get, and get back to it in a second. But to your question, what do I say to a person that is essentially a, an above scale, a professional, Speaker 4 00:47:08 Or does somebody who's stuck on this idea that minimums become the maximum and that they're agreeing to, um, a contract such as, uh, choreographers in SAG-AFTRA type of contract or that, that them agreeing to being part of a union, is them agreeing to a lower rate forever? Speaker 5 00:47:26 Uh, I think that's absurd. I think, uh, you know, the purpose of unions Speaker 6 00:47:30 Is to establish a standard for the people that do the work that is being protected by the union contract. It is a standard. Okay. And if you don't have a protected standard in any industry, then there's no starting point for anyone. So what that person is actually saying is that the, uh, w minimums become, becomes the maximum, uh, become, uh, minimums would come the maximum that's, uh, they're entitled to that opinion, but it's a counterproductive thought because to not believe that there should be a standard, uh, because of where you are, that completely pulls away and diminishes the, uh, the promise for, for the young dancers that you guys are hiring to work for you these days, the, the goal is to establish the goal is to establish a standard so that anyone that goes to work knows what they're going to work. Speaker 3 00:48:32 Um, and also with, within that minimum, if we did receive, uh, a union contract somewhere, which when we do, um, oftentimes when a producer reaches out to an agent, they say like, we want to hire a cat for what, like, what am I doing? An actor walking is the day of rehearsal or a big movie where all need lots of rehearsal. So that also what they don't share with our agents, which I think other, other, uh, positions might be shared, but, um, they don't share the budget. So is it a low budget? Isn't an indie film. Is it an ultra? Is it a fact ultra low budget? Is it so once we establish a minimum, uh, it will, it will automatically go up and down based on the contract that job has, but it will never go below what it is, correct. I mean, like, it might like a, a minimum for a bigger budget movie is going to be a different minimum than it is an ultra low budget, independent film. Speaker 3 00:49:32 That rate is going to go down, but our agents and we don't have to negotiate it, it will be set in standard. I think a few valuable things about the minimum as we think we're thinking about this one day, but if we receive, if you receive a residual, then you're going to get that day again. So it's not just that one day, which is, what's been our biggest problem. You received one day work for the lifetime of the project. Thank you so much for bringing that up. I think that's something that a lot of choreographers don't consider. We get very interested in this upfront number, our day rate, which is the only number we're used to talking about. Right. Without thinking about those health and pension contributions, without thinking about the residual structures that will inevitably eventually come around. Um, well maybe not inevitably, if the thing you're working on doesn't ever reach its it's beyond its initial use, but, um, those are really important Speaker 2 00:50:28 Things to think about. Speaker 3 00:50:29 I wanted to say one other thing. Yeah. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for literally everything also. I love your compliments. I'm like so bad at compliments, but you were so good at giving them and they're so detailed and juicy and I love them. Speaker 2 00:50:45 Yeah. Thank you. I'm flattered by that. It's I love thank you for giving me a compliment about my complimenting. Speaker 3 00:50:50 And also you can see how mine are just like pretty vague. You're like, you're good at that good job. Um, but so what I personally love about the minimum, right? It's so safe. Someone saying to me, well, first off now a producer. If we have a line, we become a line item. If we, if we, if, and when we receive a contract and there's a set, you can Google it. What is the minimum for a choreographer? Dah, dah, dah, dah. So a producer will then put before they even start hiring people, they read through a script and let's say, we're saying dance focus. They can look and see how many times dance is written in the script. How and how big is it? How big are the actors? How professional the first and Jeannie, is it not a big deal? Is it a massive deal? Speaker 3 00:51:32 And they, once they know what that minimum might be by having it in their book, the unit production manager, the UPM, um, they can, they can properly budget for it. But right now they're guessing because everybody's numbers are different, right? So it's like, they're guessing. And then they're saying, this is all we have is, is all I budgeted for? So it doesn't give our agents a lot of room to say, well, so it becomes a take it or leave it situation anyways, for the most part. Um, and so, and then, but, but what I personally would love about a minimum is like, let's say, it's just, I'm there to help somebody walk across the, they just want them to look graceful. And it's like, we can't give you your scale. We can't give you your rate, but we can give you the minimum. I might be like, all right, whatever. Speaker 3 00:52:21 It's up to me to make that decision at that point. And then I'm empowered versus a really big job that I really want to do that fits all my three PS, which I talked to you about the other day, which is pay prestige and passion. And I might all I wanted, but it doesn't fit the pay. Right? It's like these big actors, this big job, it's exactly what I want to do for my career. But they're like Ferrari. And then I'm getting $500 a day, which as if you don't know, that's extremely low for a choreographer. So what Craig was getting in the nineties is still being offered to people currently and has been. Um, but also in the nineties and the eighties choreographers were making, I've been told and we've been told that 1500, but the $1,500 a day back then was fair and normal. And then we're still fighting for that standard rate today. Wow. Not to talk money, but to talk money a little bit because money Speaker 2 00:53:19 It's important. It's also money March on the podcast. So that's literally why we're here to talk about that money. We do. It's important. Speaker 4 00:53:26 I think, Speaker 3 00:53:28 Go ahead, sorry. And that $1,500 could be, could be for the next Beyonce video that then recreating for lifetimes. And that choreographer would only make that $1,500 that one day or if they had a week of rehearsal, whatever. But then after that and seen Speaker 4 00:53:49 That's our gentle segue to our next topic, which we're not going to go too deep you guys for the time, but I do want to talk about the idea of copywriting, dance, ownership, intellectual property in general. Um, this is a massive, massive topic that will probably require a follow-up and certainly some legal advice. Um, but maybe, maybe Kat, could you give us a really quick catch-up on what's happening now in terms of copywriting choreography? Speaker 3 00:54:24 Sure. Uh, so there's a few, like I said, there's a few different worlds of which we're living in, which is like scripted versus artists' work. Um, to be honest, there's no way that CVS is going to hand over the work for hire clot. Speaker 4 00:54:39 There's no way they're going to not use that class. Speaker 3 00:54:42 Correct. Everybody under in a television show is, is, is signing off their rights for work for hire. But the difference is the rates are changing. They have a lot of unions have protection of once you are within that show, what you get. And then also, uh, you will receive a kind of residual if your creative work is being used over and over again. So for example, the, the writing, the writers Guild has a very clear hierarchy of like the, and they call them producers, even though they're writers, we don't understand it, but, and there's very clear pay increases as the seasons progress and how much money the writers are making. And then also what I learned was interesting. If a writers, inter a writer's episode of like written by they introduce a new character and this character is being used episode episode, every time that character appears on screen, the writer makes more money, makes a residual. Speaker 3 00:55:35 So when I say the work for hire clause is there sure, but people are getting passive income with the life and success of the project. Awesome. Which choreographers should get as well. We just want a portion, a small, a small part of the pool of residual that everybody else on that debt. So for me, that work for hire is fine, but I will say one thing that happened to me that happened to me, that is where I'll segue into the artist world and the label. And am I saying that correct? The label world, I'm talking over the break, but that's his world. Speaker 3 00:56:09 I said, I am so smart. I totally was college granted it was a state school, but anyways, um, so what was I saying? Oh, um, okay. This is where it intersected for me personally. I was queer. I was in Dana. You remind me of the choreographer's name when I get to it. Cause you say it so perfectly. And I, like I said, state school, um, and it was, uh, I was hired to choreograph a scene for better things. And they said, you're going to teach the mom, the daughter and the grandma. So Pamela Adlon show and, um, all the lead actors from that, the, the Christine and the Queens tilted video. And I was like, I love that video, but I can not take choreography credit for that. If I do this well, first I said, do you have, did you buy it? Like, can you legally do it? And they said, yes, we paid the label. We pay the artist. I go, well, does the choreographer know? Did the choreographer get paid? And the producer was like, well, the labels that they would take care of it, but let me reach out personally, which I appreciate. And so the original choreographer's name, Mary is Speaker 4 00:57:16 14, I think is how it's pronounced. I'm definitely not French speaker over here. The viewers could have seen your face cat when you were like, yeah, you got that, Dana, you got that data Speaker 3 00:57:33 Anyways. Exactly. Marianne Marianne, Speaker 4 00:57:37 Mary Marion, R I O N. Speaker 3 00:57:42 Correct. And, and so, and so because it's in France and maybe because they didn't find the work for hire clause for an artist that choreographer had got paid for my work, which I love great. And I got adapted choreography by cause let's be honest, Christine and the Queens and their awesome French dancers are going to look much different than doing choreography of a mom, daughter and grandmother with next to no dancing skills. Like Pamela had never danced ever in her life. And so we had like a rehearsal once a week until anyways, but that wasn't a parody, which was a different thing with my parody law. It looks like, feels like you're saying something else in the very layman's way of saying it, but they wanted to recreate as close as possible sets and everything costumes and everything choreographies and everything. They wanted to recreate the dance verbatim. Speaker 4 00:58:36 Got it. So she was credited as choreographer and you were credited as adapting adaptive choreographer or Speaker 3 00:58:44 Yeah, I think we did original choreography by and then adapted choreography by. Cool. Speaker 4 00:58:50 That's awesome. What a huge victory. And that's because you thought to ask Speaker 3 00:58:54 Exactly, I've learned, I've learned that lesson. I have done a job once, even under a parody law where it was really close and I, and I wish I would have asked and I always change it even though they say we want to do it exactly. And if it's a comedy and a parity, I always change it. But I mean, there was a Superbowl commercial that I'm sure a lot of people paid a lot of money for that did the exact dirty dancing choreography with the part of the music Speaker 4 00:59:22 Scene. Here we are. I would like when you contacted, you said, no, I wasn't a part of it at all. Nobody even asked my heart just crumbled into dust. That's on the floor. Now I'm going to have to vacuum it up. It's obviously a really pressing and important issue, especially now that Tik TOK is taking over. There are tons of video games that feature dance and popular dance, and the choreographers are not at the table in terms of negotiating. So the they're they're invisible, their bank accounts are unaffected by the tremendous bump in usage of dance in the world today. It's wild to me. So question for you, Craig, on the subject of, of this idea of, I guess, ownership and usage slash licensing, maybe, um, what are the hurdles unique to dance and choreography? What are the hurdles for that like copywriting a dance work or getting rid of the work for hire clause? What's hard about that and what could we gain if we, if we're able to do that successfully, Speaker 6 01:00:30 The greatest hurdles for choreographers in the copyright space and the IP space. I think the hurdles and this, and I want this to be taken as encouragement. Uh, first of all, uh, the industry needs to understand where the royalties and or residuals are already being dividend divvied out. Speaker 4 01:00:54 I eat the writers Speaker 6 01:00:56 Underst yet understand that there is a pot that exists already. Okay. So, and I want us to think about this from a big picture point of view. Let's not just think television, let's not just think movies let's think every medium that choreography is used. Okay. So that's number one. That's hurdle. Number one, very easy. One to clear we can Google it. Right? Number two is where are the funds coming from? That will affect you await precedents for choreographers to be able to procure copyright or intellectual property rights, intellectual property protections. Where's that money coming from? So one money's being divvied out across all, you know, all spaces that the entertainment industry already residuals and royalties and so on and so forth. So identify where that's already happening. That's hurdle. Number one, choreographers can clear that. Number two is where are these funds going to come from? Speaker 6 01:02:00 Where are choreographers going to seek compensation? Or let's just say reuse a residual or royalty compensation from the use of their copyright that's hurdle. Number two. I don't think that that's a high hurdle at all. Number three is creating a formula that friendly for your artistic and creative peers. Let's speak about music. So as far as music is concerned, we, there was an example that was brought up a minute ago and the question was Zach's will you know, well, we already cleared it with the record company. That's fine. You, you clear the music with the record company, but did you clear the choreography with the record company? Oh, we'll go back to the record company and we'll, we'll figure that out. That's precedent that's been swept under the rug. It happened, it was a good event. It was actually noble of the noble of the producer to go back to the record company and make sure everything was clear. Appreciate that. But there's precedents there that there was a challenge that listen, you cleared the music, but there's choreography that was designed to this music for these purposes. And you need to make sure that this choreography has been cleared specifically for this purpose. Okay. So I mentioned the two hurdles that I think are able to be cleared, but the third hurdle is creating a formula that makes sense that the creative in our T the performing artists community can actually side with what the hell do I mean by that Speaker 4 01:03:37 Great question. I was just about to say, Speaker 6 01:03:41 So there was a conversation that happened in cats room and clubhouse last week about royalties royalties, uh, for choreographers, because the choreography made the song so commercially successful. I believe that I a hundred percent believe that I have well documented and copywritten works that actually celebrates that. And we'll talk about that another day offline. I, a hundred percent believe that here's the challenge choreographers, the hurdle that they're going to have to clear here, which I think is going to be the highest hurdle is being able to prove that they have been artistic contributors to the composition of the song. And here's the harsh reality. If you are not a song writer and you are not a producer or composer, if the song does not use a derivative sample use from another song, if you were not part of the composition of the song, choreographers must understand that that's not the hurdle that they want to clear. And if you want to clear that hurdle, just know that that's going to be a high one. And I used to run the hurdles in high school. You're going to get that hurdle caught in between your crotch. You don't Speaker 4 01:05:09 Want that. We're going to need a pole vault, Speaker 6 01:05:12 Exactly. Speaker 4 01:05:14 Track and field here. Exactly. However, triple jumper Speaker 6 01:05:18 Myself. However, so, so, so, so, so thank you guys for allowing me to be harshly realistic about that. Cause I'm coming from the label point of view as my friend just refer to a second ago. So, so, so that's going to be a hurdle there, but here's the flip side of it. Choreography is to music and the audio visual rendering of entertainment as song writing is to a song. If you want cat or any other, any other choreographer to actually give a visual interpretation of this song that we know is choreography. You're asking cat to work for you and to interpret and share her intellectual property as to what this song looks like. That's intellectual property. No one can defy that the talent is also another pretty low hurdle that doesn't have a whole bunch of precedence is that there has not been a community that has gone out and advocated for this intellectual property, which, which, which, which you got, what you guys and gals as creators, you have not gone out as a community and said, Hey, I'm going to choreograph this song for you, but this is exactly what I'm choreographed. Speaker 6 01:06:48 This is exactly what I'm licensing the choreography for, whether you're licensing it into perpetuity or if you're licensing it, uh, with limitations or specifically for particular mediums for it to be exploited. Okay. So I believe that there is a great opportunity for choreographers to arrive at a formula specifically in the music space where their works can be not just protected, uh, but where their works can be respected for what it is because the music industry respects the works of songwriters and they respect the works of producers. If they're able to do that, they can certainly do it for choreographers Speaker 4 01:07:40 And it's starting to happen. Some, some choreographers are successfully broaching that breaching broaching. I always struggle with that. You guys are approaching. I think Speaker 6 01:07:53 They're, they're, they're, they're breaking ground. Yes. Yeah. That's what they're doing. They're breaking Speaker 4 01:07:58 Interesting things going on, um, lawsuits and, and such exciting things that we choreographers. Can I piggyback? Yes. Go. Um, one thing I learned on this clubhouse and I, I don't work in the artist world as much. I've done few things, but, Speaker 3 01:08:16 Um, and I also follow up with my agent after our clubhouse was a lot of choreographers and correct me if I'm wrong for artists work, don't sign a contract. There's no paperwork. It's just a handshake and here's some money so that alone. So I think that's, I think what Craig is saying with, uh, a room for, uh, you know, for something that can happen in music. It's like, what if we had a contract that said, uh, you can use this work, but if it's moved to a new media, we have to renegotiate my contract. Or like Craig was saying, if you want to have it in your contracts, when you can use it for it's life and you know, this is going to be the next big thing, you know, it's going to be the next thriller or whatever. It's just cause you feel it your day rate's going to change. And that initial rate is going to change if it's for eternity or for the whole tour or whatever. But, so I think having a contract with language that does have worked for hire, unless instead of that, or like you said, it's just for this. If you use it somewhere else, you have to renegotiate my contract. And if we have our own contract and it's signed, then that's legally binding, Speaker 6 01:09:25 Please. This is okay. So this, this conversation gets really exciting for me. So may I, uh, Dana, please. I want to expound on, uh, what, uh, uh, what Kat just said. So yes, it's a handshake most of the time in the music industry and because of the salacious and often incestuous business that the music industry is good for. And I'm saying this as a person, that's witnessed it. I'm saying this as a person that's been charged with looking the other way sometimes. Uh, but I'm also saying it with the gumption to be able to admit that that exists. That's part of the challenge for choreographers, that handshake and good, but, um, I'm inspired to share, uh, something, a little secret that it's fullest, that it's a secret, no recording artists wants to hire Kat burns to recycle her choreography across all the artists that she works with. Speaker 6 01:10:27 Every artist wants exclusivity in their movement. There's value there. If you want me to give you something original, I will do that for you. Surely I am work for hire, but let's protect this choreography that I am producing or designing for you. And the best way for it to be protected is I'm giving you exclusivity over use of this choreography for these terms. But it is my choreography. I need to be credited for it. And since I can't be credited for it in the music video, let's be credit. Let me, let me possess credit of it in a copyright. This is easy stuff. That's an exquisite. Thank Speaker 4 01:11:14 You for adding that. It seems so simple when you say it that way, it seems like this is so very achievable. Speaker 6 01:11:21 It, it, it is, it is. I mean, it's gonna it's, you know, it's, it's, uh, you know, it's, you know, it's basically trying to the music industry, they don't understand dance as a business, the music industry, and I'm not talking about individuals, but I'm talking about on a grand scale, they don't understand dance as a business. They don't understand the <inaudible> and the industry of the professionals that comprise of the dance industry and they don't understand choreography. And that facet of the industry either. The only thing that they understand is that this particular choreographer worked with this biggest name. So this choreographer is going to work until eternity. Although they've created nothing, they originated nothing for the 30 years that they've been working, but they worked on this one music video for this artist, no disrespect to that choreographer. But I bring that up too. And I didn't say any names and I don't have any because it's, there's quite a few that continue to work because of their name. God blessed him for establishing the brand. I say this all to say that the music industry is hungering for education about the dance industry is hungering for education about the originality of, of, of, of creative executives, like Kat burns or Jack quell night, or, uh, Brian Friedman or any court. You, you name them. Okay. They are hungering for that. And they haven't been educated Speaker 4 01:13:00 To back up a little bit, to your point about being hopeful that there is, there are hurdles that are leap bubble. So to Shaw about, um, if you're hopeful, if you're hopeful, I'm hopeful. And I also, I, I believe if the labels and other productions are hungry to be educated, I'm definitely hopeful because I think that choreographers make up some of the most talented teachers that I know, no question. And, um, if, if we're about educating ourselves through discussions like these and through the clubhouses that cat's been hosting, um, if we're, if we're open to educating ourselves and open to educating those on the other side of, of these production, you know, these negotiations, then something will move. Eventually we will, we will see progress and we will see gains in our, our day-to-day productivity, but certainly not without solidarity. So I, yeah, if I, if I were to really whittle this down, I would hope that choreographers keep a more open communication with each other. Speaker 4 01:14:08 And let me tell you what I, what we with dance with the dance community and music videos was tremendous. Think about in terms of numbers, think about how many more dancers there are younger, more varied in skillset. I mean, me, what a choreographer is asked to do from job to job does vary tremendously, but so do dancers and their skill sets. So what we did with the dance community, I think was extremely difficult. And I, I believe I am extremely hopeful, hopeful in being able to organize choreographers. Number one, we're a smaller collection of people. Number two, we embarrassingly, but notoriously do care about money. I think it's kind of this prestige, this, this dance culture thing to not care about money. I don't think the same is true for choreographers. I think we really do care about our financial stability in general. We're older. We are looking to have, or have already families and retire someday. Those are all things that are important to a choreographer. So I really think that this organizational effort will be one that is successful period where don't know when not sure, but it's definitely going to happen, especially with people like you guys on, on our side. Yeah. Speaker 3 01:15:28 Okay. Hey, well, uh, thanks Dana again. Um, for being so articulate and Craig for I've learned so much from you over the past really few months, we've kind of like died. Speaker 4 01:15:43 Okay. Speaker 3 01:15:44 Um, and to talk on a few things like we definitely choreographers definitely need dancers support. There's a lot of things that I, myself, as a choreographer, aren't aware of other choreographers practices, cause I'm in a different world and dancers need to know that choreographers for the most part are in their own little islands. And it's one choreographer is doing something good or bad. Uh, chances are, nobody knows about it. So don't lump us all into the same thing. If I hear all choreographers do this, I'll be like, well, they don't name names. Cause that's, that's, that's not true. Maybe talk to communicate. And on the, on the, on the side of communication, I think one thing the community of dancing choreographers can do as a whole better is to not tear anyone else down. We have a tendency of pointing fingers and naming names and saying how we've been mistreated, which I totally understand because we're angry as a whole and that's good. Speaker 3 01:16:45 We want representation, but we should fight for each other and stick up for each other. And when you talk about things and I say, talk about it, share don't share anyone else's information, do not use names and jobs and people. And I heard they did. We can say, I've heard of a choreographer making this much a day. I've heard as little as this a day, but don't share my information. Even if you've run podcast. I just think, I think that's good practice forward. And Dana, you had said something to me that you would learn from something else about sharing, but I'd love for you. Speaker 4 01:17:20 My favorite new guiding principles in terms of keeping, um, keeping an honoring safe spaces and open floors on which to share, but also the importance of actually sharing so that there is progress. Not all of this is happening in a vacuum. Uh, and that is this notion of what is learned here is shared. But what is shared here stays here. And I really do love this idea, right? The, the empirical evidence, the facts, the information that you learned, take it out there in the world, tell your friends, but the personal, the private, the, the griefs and the emotional state that we bring to the floor, when we step up to speak about these issues, that's that stays, that stays right here. Yeah, yeah, Speaker 3 01:18:09 Yeah. Take Speaker 4 01:18:11 That, take that and run with it or Speaker 3 01:18:15 That. Speaker 4 01:18:16 Um, well my friends, I think it is quite clear. We could do this for a very long time. And I know on some of these issues, especially the idea of copyright or licensing dance in general, we have barely scratched the surface. That is such interesting subject matter for me, but also, you know, it deep and delicate. So, uh, well, let's leave that where it stands today. I'll thank you both very much for your time and talent and brains. Um, and we'll do this again sometime. Thank you. Speaker 3 01:18:52 Thanks Dan. Big five or hug. I always wave bye. Speaker 0 01:19:07 All right. Speaker 4 01:19:07 My friends. What do you think? Have you learned something new? Are you inspired? Are you eager to act in solidarity with your choreography brothers and sisters? I certainly hope so. I hope that you make a habit to not take credit for things that are not yours. I hope that you make it a habit to talk with your peers about what you do about what's working about what could be working better. And I hope that if any questions sprung up for you during this episode, you wrote them down and we'll send them to me over at words that move me podcast on Instagram, because the last episode of March will be a Q and a episode. I'll be answering all your questions regarding dance, choreography, financial systems, income outcome, all of your questions from money March in the last episode Speaker 2 01:20:08 This month. So if you are listening to this on the time of its release, you've got a good week and a half or so, but I encourage you act fast so that I can get your questions answered. Um, if you happen to have missed the deadline, if you're already listening to this way, after the fact, you can still reach out at words that move me podcast on Instagram, um, really do and love engaging with you all in that space. And I love finding answers to questions. I think really, truly. That's why we're all here. Right? Okay. Everybody, I hope that you enjoyed this episode. I hope to hear all of your questions and answer them very, very soon. And I hope that you get out there right this minute and keep it funky. I'll talk to you later. Speaker 1 01:20:55 Me again, wondering if you ever noticed that one more time. Almost never means one more time. Well, here on the podcast, one more thing actually means two more things. Number one thing. If you're digging the pod, if these words are moving you, please don't forget to download, subscribe and leave a rating or review because your words move me to number two thing. I make more than weekly podcasts. So please visit the dinners and.com for links to free workshops. And so, so much more. Speaker 2 01:21:31 All right, that's it now for real talk to you soon. Bye.

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