158. Writing Your Legacy with Vincent Paterson

Transcript: Intro: Welcome to Words That Move Me, the podcast where movers and shakers, like you, get the information and inspiration you need to navigate your creative career with clarity and confidence. I am your host, Dana Wilson, and I move people. I am all about the tools and techniques that empower tomorrow's leaders to make the work of their dreams and live a full life while doing it. So whether you're new to the game or transitioning to your next echelon of greatness, you're in the right place. … Dana: Hello. Hello my friend. Welcome to the podcast. This is Words That Move Me. I'm Dana. I am stoked that you are here because what the actual heck is going on? This is the first interview of 2023, and we're starting off so strong, so strong, like very, very strong. Uh, today I am joined by the one and only Vincent Paterson. Dramatic pause because Vincent freaking Paterson, I knew Vincent's work pretty well. I I knew it was iconic. And then I read his book Icons and Instincts, and I found out there was even more and more iconic work in there, and some iconic human qualities as well, which I find particularly interesting. Uh, I would like to quickly flag this episode for adult language and potentially triggering content on the topics of abuse and racism. Uh, Vincent is very generous with his personal stories and with his sharing, so I am thrilled and honored to be sharing this conversation with you. But first, let's do some wins. I start every episode of words that Move me with wins. Today is no different. Today, <laugh>. I am celebrating Toni freaking Basil, who features heavily in this conversation with Vincent, by the way, uh, Toni Basil will turn 80 years old this year, and her music video for, Hey, Mickey, one of the most popular, famous, most famous songs that ever was. Um, her video for that song Turns 40 this year, and I just want you to wrap your head around that for a second, because she fully looks 18 in that video. But if you math that out, she was 40 y'all, which gives me new life and new hope and new love for this body that I have. Um, and like, makes me want to get out there and cheer, like, just like cheer about things that are going well. So that is a very appropriate win for this episode. Um, that is what I'm celebrating. That's what's going well in my world. I am so stoked to have a woman like Toni Basil leading in my life. She's a leading lady of my life. And in my opinion, the eighth Wonder of the world, whether she is a one hit wonder or not. I will let you decide. I don't happen to think so because I danced to Shoppe A to Z when I was a young child. That was by Toni Basil. And that song is The Jam so <laugh> there. Anyways, that's, that's me. Now you go, what is going well in your world? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> hit me. … Yay. All right. Congratulations. I'm so glad that you're winning. Please keep it up. Keep crushing or keep like relaxing. You might not even be crushing it. You might just be like, easy River winning. And that is what I want for all of us. Just the nice relaxing ride down the easy river of wins. Okay, Vincent Paterson, let's do this. Wow. World renowned director and choreographer of film TV commercials. The stage, uh, music videos, short films is, is actually more appropriate for what those works are, especially the first that I'll mention, smooth Criminal, which really is an epic. It is not a, it's not a video <laugh> in the way that most of, uh, these three minute Bs are these days. Um, anyways, Vincent's the Man behind Michael Jackson's lean in Smooth Criminal and Madonna's controversial bed scenes. Uh, during the Blonde Ambition era, he has choreographed for and collaborated with some of the biggest names in entertainment history, period. He is also an executive board member of the Choreographer's Guild. That's how I came to meet him. And Vincent is the only choreographer member of the Motion Picture Society of America, aka the Academy of Motion Pictures, arts and Sciences, a k a, the Academy, as in the Academy Awards, yeah. Them. He is the only member out of nearly 10,000 motion picture professionals that is a choreographer that speaks not only to his level of achievement, but also to a slightly more than slightly broken system that we will have to talk about in another episode. Because today Vincent and I are digging into the book, uh, his early years, which came later than you might expect, uh, why he recommends writing a book and how, and we also talk at length, but not deep enough for my liking. If you ask me personally about choreographers unionizing, this is a full plate. So I hope you are hungry. Please get ready to enjoy the one and only Vincent Paterson. Dana: Vincent Paterson, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much. Vincent: Thank you, Dana. Lovely to be here. Lovely to be here with you. Thank you so much. Dana: It's probably safe to say everyone who is connected in some way to media, like TV and movies and music is a fan of some amount of your work. If it isn't Michael Jackson, it's probably Madonna. If it isn't the movie Evita, which my mom was a huge fan, she really loves her some Antonio Banderas. So that was on Loop It, uh, in my house growing up. Um, but if it wasn't that, it would probably be the Birdcage or Dancer in the Dark, which can I be real with? You have not seen because Vincent: You haven't seen it. Oh, my, I haven't, Dana. You have to see it, Vincent. It's powerful. It's dark, but it is so powerful and so phenomenal, and truly, Bjork did a performance that is so unexpected and one of the most pro powerful and honest performances I've ever seen in my entire life. My God. So at some point, you can need to see it there. I will see it. I will watch it after this call because I just, I feel it, like the same reason. I also still haven't seen rent. I know the deep, deep sadness that is coming, and I don't know if I can take it, but hearing what you've just said and reading a bit about it in your book, which we'll definitely dig into in a second, I feel <laugh>, I feel like I, I must like, it's a certainty. I might be very sad, but I must watch it <laugh>. So all of that to say with the amount of work in the range of work, I am humbled to have you here. Thank you so much for your time, and welcome to the podcast, <laugh>. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. So it's customary here, and I'm so curious to hear your, your introduction, but all of my guests introduce themselves. So, um, take the floor, let us know what it is you'd like us to know about you. Uh, my name is Vincent Paterson with one T. And, um, I'm, I began as a actor and then went into directing and then went to dance for the first time, and then went to choreography, and now back to directing again. And I wrote a book, and my life is full. I'm, I'm a happy man, you know. Ooh, I'm a big champion of a full life over here. I'm way more interested in a full life than a happy life. I love the ups, the downs, the everything's in betweens. Um, and I think your book does a really good job of ups and downs. Uh, so I, I wanted, maybe we'll just start talking about the book you and I met during several Saturdays during 2020. We were part of the steering committee of what has become the Choreographer's Guild. And you were wrapping up the book. You were up to your molars in research, writing, editing, drafts, revisions. It was a thing. And yet, you still recommended to all of us that we write a book. You were like, all of you should do this. It is important that the choreographer's perspective is heard. It's important that we educate the world on what we do, and we have this access. We have this tremendous access, and yet so few of us put it on the page. So I'm wondering, now that the book is out there in the world, is that still your recommendation? Do you still encourage choreographers to write a book, <laugh>? Well, I do. You know, and I'll tell you why. Not necessarily for the financial, uh, gain of it, because I doubt I'll see a penny for this book. Okay. That was a follow up question. Work. Got it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, but, you know, that wasn't the reason I wrote it anyway. I, I wrote it for maybe three reasons. I wrote it first because, uh, as you know, uh, as we've dealt with in organizing the cg, uh, credit is a big deal for us, and we're not credited as choreographers very often. And I've seen so much of my work stolen by people I thought were friends, you know? And because I, I don't own it, and often I'm not credited. People just steal the work. So I wanted to kind of get it out there and leave a legacy on paper that said, no, this is my work. This is what I've done. Some of what I've done. Anyway, that was one. The second reason was that people look at someone in my position who's achieved a lot over a long period of time, and many times they think it was easy, you know, oh, man, it all worked for you, because they see all the great, incredible projects I've had the opportunity to work with. But I wanted to let them know that it's not easy. It's follow your heart, but you know, nothing that's wonderful to achieve is easy to get there. And if it is, it usually isn't as good as it could be or have could have been. So I wanted to share that, you know, there are downsides, as you mentioned, you know, to our business and our creativity and our opportunities and situations, and I wanted to share some of them. And third, I just kind of wanted people, especially younger people, to know that, you know what? Live your dream. You can do it. It's possible. You know, someone once said to me, you know what? It's crowded at the bottom of the ladder, but at the top of the ladder, there's lots of room up there, you know, so climb the ladder kids. And, and, and I feel that there's so few choreographers who've written books or had books written about them, but specifically who've written it in their own voice, which I, I enjoyed doing so much. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, that our stories are, are lost. Our stories just disappeared. You know, when you think about incredible people in our business out here on the West coast, like, say, Michael Peters, for instance, my gosh, when you think if he could've written a book and, and what he would've taught us and what we would've learned from him, him and many others. And, you know, at the, at the World Choreography Awards the other night, I said this to everybody, I said, listen, you all have stories that the world wants to hear. Write these stories. They wanna know about your process. They wanna know about your creativity. Write them down, because nobody else is gonna write them for you. They're gonna try to push you in the corner and have you forgotten about. So it's up to you to leave your own legacy. And yes. So I continue to encourage highly, everybody out there who has an inkling or desire to write a book, write the book, get it done, let the world share the world, share your, your information, your joy, your sorrows. But what we do are creativity with the world. So the world knows more about who we're as choreographers. That's what's important. <laugh>. All right. Listeners. Now, you know what I was talking about <laugh>. I don't know how you could possibly know this, but the words that Move Me Podcast started as a book I wrote, um, or I've always been a collector of quotes. Um, I've loved, I, I don't know, it's probably a human thing. It's probably not a special thing, but in life, famous quotes, but also in person exchanges. Um, I had a little notebook, and then it became a little note on my little iPhone. And I think the earliest quotes in their, like, professional careers wise started in 2005, all the way up to 2016 when I started taking a quote. And then the facing page would have a story about how that quote came to me, or how I met that person, the context, something like that. And the book was called Words That Moved Me. I got a editor, I got an illustrator, I got my I S B N number, and then I got a lawyer, and she was like, okay, so you're gonna need written permission from everyone who you have a quote from in the book. And I'm like, I don't think David Fincher is gonna respond to my email. Yeah. Um, and Kurt vga is dead. And she was like, well, then the estate, like, you'll need permission from the estate. So one of the very technical questions that I have for you is like, you have some quotes in there. You have like some half page length stories of verbatim. Did you get permission from Shirley McClain or from, you know, Lars Tre? Like how did that work for you? What did that process look like? No, I didn't at all, you know, but at the beginning of the book, I make a statement and I say, look, this is the, his, my history as I remember it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, everybody as we move through time, has a different impression and a different memory of every situation that happened. I mean, you talk to your, I talked to my brothers and sisters about our early Christmases or things, and everybody has a different thought. Uhhuh, <affirmative>, no, none of us see the same thing the same way. So I just, no, I did not get in in touch with any of these people because as I said, I made this disclaimer, this is my, my memory. These are my memories only mine. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And they might not be all correct, but this is how I remembered, and this is how I've lived my life cause of the memories. Mm. So that, that's what I did. I didn't go, I didn't deal with anybody at all. That, that sentiment speaks to a little rebel that lives on my shoulder. That's like, it's better to ask forgiveness than permission. <laugh> And like, I, I remember my, the this lawyer person talking to me, and she just really had a really, you know, like, you can't do, like, you can't do this. Like, that's not gonna work. You can't do that. And I took her no. And I was like, I think I'm gonna do it anyways. And then a couple projects came up, I kept the book, I returned to it a couple years later, and as I read it, I was like, you know what? I think this is actually a podcast. Maybe this isn't a book. Oh. So I got to share all those quotes and talk with all these, all, all sorts of more people. And I'm thinking that it's maybe could come back, like, could turn into a book again. So thank you for that inspiration. I think it's really important for people to hear that you can do it your way And I and just do that. Like, you don't have to do it the way or the lawyer's way, or the way that all other authors have done it. Because, let's be honest, that the publishing space mm-hmm. <affirmative> lots of changes. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> probably as many changes as the entertainment space. So, yep. Um, thank you for that. Okay. I would love to start kind of at the beginning. Shocker, I'm very interested. Let's be real. Everybody loves a late start success story, but I was recently speaking with a young dance type who was like, there's no way I can do it. She had these big goals. She was like, I just started too late. And I was like, how old were you? And she said, 25. And I was like, okay. So if there was someone out there who started at 25 And they did it, would you think that you could, is that all it takes? Like, do you need to see proof? And, and she was like, I mean, yeah, I kind of, yeah, that would help. Like, it would help to see that it is possible. And I was like, okay, well what if they were 24 <laugh>? Like, would that still count? And she was like, mm. Yeah. And I was like, well, what if they were 23 <laugh>? Like, would that still count? So you start Vincent freaking Patterson started dancing at 23. Tell us just a little bit, I do really hope that people listen to this and go read the book, cuz there's a lot of juicy detail there. But it reads on the page, like 23 year olds doing ballet with 14 year olds. It reads like a movie. Um, is that how it felt, <laugh>? Well, no, cause I was in it, but, uh, you know, it just felt like fun actually. You know, I I I I had always been a theater mole, so I, I wasn't really into sports and things like this. And, and I had hurt my foot badly. I broke it in four or five places in high school. So I had a lot of difficulty with, you know, sports and things like that. But as I moved forward in my life, and, and, um, I was, I was living in Arizona at the time, and, you know, I walked to work and I passed this sort ballet studio, and I heard this music, and I was never into ballet. I don't even think I saw a ballet or something, but I, I thought it would be good exercise or something. So I, I looked in and the lady said, hi, can I help you? And there's just little kids in there, girls, well, they were little in that class, but she, I said, I, I wanna take this for exercise, you know? Well, how old are you? Well, I'm almost 24. She goes, have you ever danced before? No. Just kind of funky dancing, you know, I like to dance, you know. So she said, well, we don't have adult classes, but you can come and take with the, like, I 14 to 17 year old girls. There was one boy in the class, but mostly all girls. And I thought, okay, sure. Why not? You know, that's what I want. So I started to do it, and Dana, it freaked me out because, okay. The, the first experience that I had as I started to work was, uh, take class, was that I had always experienced life just through these eyes like this without thinking about my three dimensional dimensionality. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, when I started to dance, I realized that this whole thing moves through the world, you know, in a way that I hadn't even considered it really, you know, I mean, as an actor, I had taken on different physicalities, but I never really thought of my body as something that moves through the world as much as my mind did, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it, that was the first thing that happened. It totally changed my perception of living, of just being alive, you know? And then the fact that it was this incredible experience that combined movement with breath and, and, and energy and excitement and, I don't know, I just dropped everything. I, I gave up my job. I just started taking class as much as I could. And I just became crazy. I became crazed. And I was fortunate because my theatrical background, I was a really good actor, Uhhuh <affirmative>. So I had a great stage presence. And in Tucson, not a lot of men who were dancing first of all, but also who had any experience on stage. So all these little companies, and there were a lot of little companies in Tucson. Um, they were inviting me to come and take class with them if I would perform with them, and in some cases get a little bit of money. So that was kind of how it all started. And I just got so addicted and started then traveling back and forth to LA thinking, is this a possibility? Really? Is this really something I could do? And it turned out it was Really truly, what do you, what do you think, if anything, would be different if you were 23 and starting today? I have no idea. And I don't even want to know. It's kind of frightening to think about, right? Yeah. I think certainly the, the, I'll call it dance space maybe is more populated, I think, thanks to TikTok and Dancing with the Stars shows, like, so you think, like, especially for young men, I think going into dance with some sort of seriousness is, is is way more, uh, That's absolutely changed. But that began to change actually in the eighties with Michael Jackson and Madonna videos. True. You know, true. Um, they brought men onto the scene who were men. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, I'm not talking about it didn't matter about sexual preference, I'm not talking about that, but I'm talking about, you know, they weren't ballerinas and tights. They were guys that looked like guys. And, um, and I think that gave permission to so many young boys who thought, you know, Hey man, I'm not gay, you know, but I want to dance. You know, they didn't know yet that naivete, you know, at the beginning of it All that stigma was very, very ingrained. Yeah. But then as Michael and Madonna started presenting men in their videos, I think young guys started going, wow, man, I love to dance. I can do that. I can make some money. Maybe I can even become famous. So, uh, it was really, I, I have to give nods to both of them for changing a lot in, in, in the US anyway, the course of men coming into the dance world. Well, there's also, I mean, the change was the stars themselves and the technology, the media, things like M T v and T R L and music videos being an actual thing. Like, I, I, you know, Michael and Madonna wouldn't be Michael and Madonna, if not for the visual form. Absolutely. And the format in which we got to in, in which they distributed, you know? Absolutely. So yeah, it, and I was, um, I'm born in 86, so I was in high school when t r l when music videos were really like a thing. And I decided after watching music videos one day that I wanted to move to LA and be a da, a backup. I like the aspiration was backup dancer <laugh> Incredible to think about now. Cause I, I just like, my, the slice of the dance pie that I saw from way back there, suburbs of Colorado watching M T V was music videos. Like that's what I thought dance was. I was familiar. Like my mom took us to Broadway shows when I was young. Wow. But a story that I have believed from very early on is that I am not a singer. Uh, so I kind of crossed New York off my list of options and I thought, LA is it music videos? Yeah. Movies were cool. But, you know, there had st there had not been a really great movie musical mm-hmm. <affirmative> when I was like 16, 17, like, deciding what I wanted to do with my life was kind of a dry spell for those mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think you could probably show me otherwise. But Avita happened around that time. I was in high school in the nineties. Yeah. Um, anyways, I, I decided I wanna be a backup dancer, and my mom was terrified. Uh, and I, I think she's quite proud now, but it's not something I think a mom likes to hear her young daughter saying is like, I wanna be like her. And she's dancing in a bikini oiled down head to toe <laugh>. So that evolved quite nicely for us, didn't it? <laugh> Or in her cone bras. Exactly. Thank you for that. Thank you for contributing firsthand to the thoughts that my mother has about what being a backup dancer is. <laugh> <laugh>. You made it so hard for me. Vincent <laugh> actually, I, I would've been more concerned about my dad, but he seemed like kind of game for it. Like, good luck, honey. I I wish you all the best. Yeah. Um, actually, it's another thing I really love hearing about in your book, your relationship with your dad. I think in very few words, you explain it very clearly. So, uh, yeah. Hats off to you for that. Some explaining very complicated relationships really simply. Um, actually, ooh, Pat's cell on back. That's a great segue. I wondered if you could talk a little bit about what the qualities that you possess are that help you navigate those tough moments. You know, uh, with personal and professional relationships, you bring a lot of them up. But the one that I'm thinking of in particular is Michael Peters choreographed for Michael Jackson. He did Thriller. You were in it, you were, you were his assistant, correct? Or one of the assistants? One of the initial I Was, I, I, I was the gang leader in Beat It and the assistant choreographer in Beat it. And then I was the assistant choreographer and a dancing zombie on Thriller. Yeah. Got it. And then Smooth Criminal came around. Michael asked you if you would choreograph, and you get to have this moment between you and Michael Peters that explains that handoff. That's just one of the many, you know, tough conversations that will come up in this line of work where it is both personal and professional. Um, so I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about what it is that you think makes you good at those moments. Um, I think I'm an honest person, and I think honesty is really number one. And I think however, honesty with tact and honesty with, um, diplomacy mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that, um, whether it's Madonna or Michael Jackson or Michael Peters, or anybody, you know, or in my life, you know, um, being honest is really hard because we have to suffer the consequences of being honest and in a professional relationship or workspace with any professional I've gotten, had the opportunity to work with, and I've been fortunate enough to work with the biggies. Um, you know, I always say, this is my perspective, but you're hiring me and you're paying me a lot of money. So you obviously respect what I do and, and, and how I create. Now, ultimately, you make the final decision because you are the celebrity and you are the one who's going to be seen. But because you're paying me and you've hired me, this is what I think, take it or leave it. Now, most of the time, I've never had anybody say go against what I've said because I'm, I'm, I'm there to support them. I'm there to help them, make them better, make their career hotter and, and, and, and, and fly higher. Um, it's not for me, it's for them, you know? And, um, it's the same thing. If I'm creating something and, and, and, and someone doesn't like what I'm doing, or it doesn't, they feel so uncomfortable with it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what I first say is just try it my way first. Just try it. Just try it. Give it a no thank you bite. Yeah. And then if it doesn't feel good after a little while, throw it away. But this is my expertise and I'm trying to give you what I think is the best situation for you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, just experiment with it. It might feel a little different at first, but honestly, just try it. If it doesn't work, okay, throw it out the window and you try something else. But that's what I always ask for first. Um, it's so difficult. I've seen it so often where, uh, and, and not with me personally, but with so many other people where the assistant choreographer rises and becomes equal or even surpasses the choreographer that they've often worked for. Now I see it not only in that, but you look at agencies, you look at talent agencies, you know, there's a lot of young students that a lot of young kids will come into a talent agency, learn, learn, learn, leave the agency, and start their own agency. I know it's difficult for the original agency, but that's a part of the game, that's part of the growth process. I mean, with the people that have assisted me, predominantly Bonnie's story. I haven't had a lot of people, Kevin stay assisted.Me too, and Bonnie, and, you know, I I, I've always pushed them out of the nest, you know, go, kids, go, go, go. You know, do your thing. You know, play with me when you can. But it's time for you guys to show, uh, show who you are and shine and, and bring that to the forefront. Um, so jumping back to Michael Peters just for a second. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, I, when Michael Jackson asked me to conceive and, and choreograph smooth criminal for him, um, the first thing I did was call Michael Peters because he was my best friend, and I wanted him to hear it from me and not hear it from anybody else. But his reaction was so vehement and so violent and so angry. And he accused me of so many unfair things. Stealing his work, stealing his jobs, um, undercutting him. When I hadn't even talked about money, I had just had a conversation, you know, with Michael Jackson. And then he just kind of dropped me from his life. And, um, thank God things got better towards the end of his life, sadly, sadly, he had AIDS and I was part of a, a large group of, of people who supported him and took him to doctors and, and also went to the movies and did all kinds of things together. But, you know, helped, helped be with him and, and make it his life easier for him. And I was, besides his mother and his best friend manager, I was the last person to speak with him. He wanted me to speak with him before, before he left. And, um, and it was just a beautiful love conversation. And, um, and also just to share Michael Jackson, he told me that Michael Jackson had called him that day and told him how grateful he was for everything that he had done for him. And, you know, that was a beautiful thing, I think. Well, Michael Jackson's part. But anyway, so that's, I think honesty, Dana. I, I just, I think, I think number one is honesty, you know? And I mean, if we can't be honest in our life, then we just can't be true to who we are. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> as people or as artists. I mean, what's the point? You know, it's <laugh>. I, I, I've never understood that. So yeah. Brings us back to the full life bit. If all you want is a happy set or a happy relationship where only you only ever address the good and never show a difference of opinion or, or ruffle a feather here and there, yeah. You have, maybe you have a nice smooth set, but you probably have boring work <laugh> and a, and a, and a, and a one dimensional relationship. Um, it's something that I definitely look to and watch very carefully on set and in, and in relationships, how conflict is managed. Because in my experience growing up early work, it just didn't happen. I didn't get to learn. I never, I didn't see much of it. A lot of my early professional, professional work was assisting Marty Kalka with Justin Timberlake. And the two of them, it sounds a little bit like how you and MJ may have been, which is really simpatico, finishing each other's sentences. Some things even went unsaid. Like the creative conversations that I might have gotten some insight to were unspoken. Like those things. I rarely saw creative differences. I rarely saw fights. So how to do those things is still something that, that when it happens, I kind of lean in and watch <laugh>, um, because I'm like, okay, how, how does that work? Uh, <laugh>. So I'm, I'm fascinated with it. And your book was an interesting portal to moments like that. Thanks. I wanna add something else as we're talking. I'm thinking about this. I think the other thing is that I've off, I've always stood up against abuse, you know, whether it was toward me or toward somebody. Dancers, I brought on onto a gig, you know, I won't abide by it. Um, egos can fly, but when egos start to be destructive and dangerous mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they need to be halted. And they need to be reminded that no, no, no, no, no. That's not what art is about. That's not what creativity is about. And that's not the way we, we deal with this in this profession. And if that is the way you need to deal with it, I need to not be here. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, um, that's the other thing that's been very important to me. I, I, I, I won't, you know, I mean, I was abused as a child and, um, not sexually, but physically and emotionally, and as an adult, I won't deal with it, you know? And I, I, I just got strong from, I think my skin got strong from, of being abused for a long time. And that's one thing in the workplace I just won't deal with. I again, it means lack of respect of yourself, you know, if, if, if you take abuse. And, and also same thing, if you're not allowed to be honest, what else is there? Yeah. As an artist, I mean, we're artists besides being human beings, we're artists. And, and that's not an easy, um, Cross the bear gift Gift. Well, it's not an easy gift to carry often, you know, if it, it would be so easy if we were granted the ability to be creative, and then all of these opportunities were there for us. So we could just always be creative. But that's not what life is about. So we often spend more time without being created than we do in the exact creative process. So when that happens, baby, it's gotta be great <laugh>, you know, it's gotta be positive. It has to be a family. It has to be that we're all working for a goal. Cause just logistically things are so complicated mm-hmm. <affirmative> that if the personalities are not all working together and mm-hmm. <affirmative> in love, so to speak, in creative love mm-hmm. <affirmative>, something's not gonna be right. It ain't gonna be the best material that ever happened, I'll tell you that. Yeah. Is there anything else that's like a do not cross go for you that you will leave a project or not sign on if you see flickers of it or if it shows up in the room? You mentioned abuse In my early days, um, it was about, um, racism. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, when I was first starting to do a lot of work in commercials, especially in the late eighties into the nineties, um, there was a lot of, there were a lot of producers, um, and, and companies that didn't really want blacks or Latinos involved in the shows and or commercials. And, you know, I did so much work with an incredible director named, uh, Joe Pit, and he was like, me. I mean, we can't say we don't see color, we see color. I mean, that's just the way, it's, the thing is, oh, yes, <laugh>, who cared. The reality is, but who cares about color? You know? And so often I would really stand up to some of these people and Pepsi Cola and <laugh> people from Pepsi and just say, listen, you guys, I think you're short sighting yourself. And, you know, let's, let's, let's bring these people on. They're mega stars. They're mega dancers. They're incredible people. And you know what, Dana? I always won. Yeah. I always won. Um, Well, it's, that's, it's, That's, that's the third. That, that's it. That's it. I think It sounds like people very much trusted you. And when I tell you, <laugh>, as I'm reading this book, here's what stood out to me. You, you start the book by saying, it's a quote from Madonna who says, Vincent, I don't have it in front of me. Forgive me, Vincent. Your problem is you have no idea how interesting you are. Right. And then three pa 300 pages go by of you very much knowing how interesting you are <laugh> in your work, and the depth of detail that you are bringing to the surface. Like, I very much for the mo for like first two thirds probably. I'm reading with this kind of weird, like, times have definitely changed. So I'm reading kind of from a distance, and we're very different people, but the detail that you write with, and some of these conversations that I've heard mirrors of, um, I've felt like I w like I could kind of tell what it might be like to work with you. Um, and I felt like some of those, some of those moments, like I will leave, if not this or some of those, like little snide, the, the, the feather ruffling moments that I could really like imagine myself being there for. But then chapter 11, or no, chapter nine comes around and I feel comradery. I feel like, oh, this is my teammate. This isn't another person from another time. This is my teammate. And it gets me emotional to say that out loud because, uh, the title of the chapter is, choreographers Still Don't Get Oscars. An earlier chapter was called Choreographers Don't Get Oscars. But in that moment, I was like, I was like, oh, here it comes. This is like, this is still a thing. And you talk about that through the context. This blew my mind open. You talk about this through the context of losing a finger or nearly losing a finger and growing it back. So we're, we're talking about organizing choreographers. Oh my God, there it is. Yeah. Guys fully formed finger, check It out. So this is what it is, and this is what they wanted it to be, Right? They were going to talking about amputating. Cut it off there. Oh my goodness. Okay. Yeah. Well, don't get me started. I love, one of the things I love about myself is one of my, I have to practice Vincent. It's not natural, but I'm getting there. I do, I like, as people who listen the podcast, know I celebrate wins at the top of every show. I love to talk about what's going well, what I like, um, and I love my hands. If something like that were to happen to me, I would certainly be in a spot, um, <laugh>. But you talk about all that to say, you talk about organizing choreographers as if it were impossible. And you've done this impossible thing that doctors said you couldn't do, other medical professional professionals said you couldn't do. And you're like, but I did it. So kind of fuck you to the thing that you say is impossible. And I'm here for that. So, okay. You and I are both, uh, you're an executive board member. I am a vice president of the Choreographer's Guild. And the, the, the collective voice is one of unity of positivity, of hope, of empowerment. But you as an individual in that book, without being executive board member of Vincent Patterson, got mad. And, and it wasn't like a reckless kind of confusing, kind of mad, it was a very clear, kind of mad where you said, this is why I'm mad and this is why I'm mad, and this is why that matters. And I got so into that. So I wanna kind of ho, uh, just ask people to read. If you're not a reader, just jump straight to chapter nine. Um, but It's very much entertainment value throughout. But this part matters so much, especially if you're listening and you're a young aspiring choreographer. These, the changes that are happening now will very much affect you. And it's because of people like Vincent. And I would, I would call myself this kind of bridge generation person like myself, um, who may not see the full benefits of the work that we're doing right now, um, in like, fully in my career. Like, I probably won't retire off of a choreographer's guild pension plan, <laugh>, <laugh>. But I would like to think that some of the people listening will, um, yeah. So I'd like to, to give you the floor and articulate in your way, whether it be mad or <laugh> hopeful, wherever you're at today, um, talk about what is the matter why choreographers? Yeah. Why are we behind, what's the difference between us, us, and other groups, and why does it matter so much that we get caught up? Oh my gosh, that's huge. But I wanna say one thing first to start it off. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, when I was growing up, as per this conversation that we just talked about with Michael Peters and me, um, when I began to choreograph, I carried a lot of bad habits with me that I had learned from choreographers that I had worked for. It was a time when choreographers were dictators mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And you never opened your mouth. You never said a word. They were as mean as they could be if they wanted to, and disrespectful and cruel. And you just had to deal with it to keep a job and keep on working. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, when I first began, I may have been a little bit in impatient with people, or a little bit of an asshole, you know, in the way I spoke or something. But I think I, and I'm happy to, to say that I, I believe I dropped that pretty fast. Mm-hmm. And I, what I found with, in working with all the choreographers at, in the cg, and, and whether they're on the executive board now or not, um, was a whole different energy. And this is why I believe that there's promise now for the choreographer's Guild to finally, after all of these years exist and become a strong potential, potentially become a very strong union. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because I've met choreographers who are not out to bite each other's throats. They're out to do their own work, happy to do it. Befriending other choreographers, talking about things, sharing experiences, sharing dancer information. Oh, Jiff tried this, dancer's great. You should use them. Love. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, this Is, that wasn't, that wasn't a thing. <laugh>. I never encountered anything like that. Everybody was, but you, you realize also there were no un there was no, there were no agents. There were no dance agents. Right. So everything we did, we fought for ourselves. So if you heard about something, you wanted to keep it on the qt cause you didn't want any other choreographer to hear anything about it, or few and far between then. Um, but that's one of the things that really enthralled me from the beginning of those Saturday morning meetings with the choreographers, was that, oh my God, these are people that really like each other. You know, and they're not afraid of each other. They, they, they're working together, Fans of each other even. Really, really. Yeah. Lifting each other, boosting each other, Totally. Being resources and being cheerleaders for each other. And that's one of the reasons that I became so passionate about wanting to be involved. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because this is what it takes for a union to exist. And there's so many reasons. I mean, you know, everything that we're fighting for pension, health and welfare, we, we just want equality of those people that we rub elbows against in the workplace, you know? Yeah. Pension, health and welfare, some kind of residual situation, some kind of credit situation. Just fairness. That's all we're asking for is let's be fair. We're not asking for anything that anybody else that we work next to does not receive. That's the simplicity of it. And also, it shouldn't be this complicated. It just should not be this complicated. But the beauty that I'm seeing is people like yourself, people, younger people stepping in and, and, and I really see this coalition when we did that meeting with, um, I'm the, the, the two meetings that we've had with the executive board. And you look at all of those amazing faces and you see the work that these people have created from the younger ones to, to Anita, man. Yeah. You know, on probably the top end of age. And it's unbelievable the power that's on that little zoom with all those faces. And I believe we can do it. Um, I'm just gonna cite one little example of why this is important. Yes, please. I worked on the bird cage and on the bird cage, I, I, I pushed myself to a meeting with Mike Nichols because I believed I was the right person to do it. And he had already hired Tommy Toon, and I turned him around. I changed his mind. This story is truly unbelievable. You must read about this in the book. I was jaw on the floor, Vincent, I swear, I couldn't believe, I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. Carry on. Well, the things we have to do, do you know what I mean? The nobody does 'em for us. We have to do those things. We have to speak up for ourselves. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if we think we're right for a project and we really are right for a project, have the balls to just go after it. You know, what are you gonna do? All you're gonna hear is no, what's the possibility? Oh my God, who knows? You know, front title credit, main title credit, and Right. And also getting to work with somebody who you absolutely adore. So, Michael, Mike, Mike Nichols brought me in from the very first table, read to the entire end of the movie, just stay by my side. Anytime you see something where movement is, just tell me or stop, fix it, make it happen, blah, blah, blah. So one of the things that I did, and I was so proud of doing was very spur of the moment creating for Mike, for Robin Williams, the Fosse Fosse, the eclectic celebration of the dance, which Talking about the bird cage, that's one of the, that's it. We all think about hundred percent. Well, that happened because I had worked with Robin several times, and Robin came running back on this back behind the set, uh, on, they were shooting that scene. And he said, Vince, Vince, Vince, help me, help me. I'm so, I, I, I I just can't play the straight gay man anymore. I need to be funny. I need to do something funny. Can you come up with something funny? You know, how that happens on a set? So I said, okay, come back on the next take after the next take. So he came back, I taught him the eclectic celebration of the dance. That, that he went back out. He did it. Everybody laughed, of course. And then Mike said, ah, I, uh, very nice guys, but I don't think so. And then Robin said, please, please, please, let's do it. And Mike said, okay, we'll shoot it, but don't be disappointed if it's not in the movie. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Anyway, it was in the movie <laugh>. So I read Very much was in the movie. It was very much in the movie. I read a biography of Mike Nichols, and in the biography of Ray Mike Nichols, it states that the most interesting and funniest improvisation that Robin Williams ever did was the eclectic celebration of the dance in the bird cage. Well, you know what? I went ballistic. And this was, I, I just started to write everywhere I could. And I just said, no, this, this shit has got to stop. This shit has got to stop this. Here's an intelligent man writing a biography about somebody and didn't even research the facts. You know? So, and you even have a title card. You have a credit Main title front. Wouldn't even, you wouldn't even have to scroll on on imdb. It's up there, but, well, actually IMDB is, that's a whole nother piece Actually. But Dana, the reality is, and this is the other frightening thing, because we have so little exposure, cause people don't know what we do. They don't know what we do <laugh>. Right. And so a writer, and I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt, cause he should have researched it mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But it's easy to understand how he could think that Robin improvised that, that, because many people don't know what we do. They, they, we take up 5, 6, 7, 8. And that's the extent, Or any, any like, unison choreography. They think a choreographer does the Rockettes or does. Yeah. You know, but also in this case, not, I'm just like devil's advocating here. Robin Williams is renowned for not only his improvisation, but his physicality. So to think that he might have done that is not out there. But the fact that you did it, and it looked like Robin's improv improvisation really speaks to you and your ability to create a thing for the material for the physical person that you are working with. So, kudos. But also, yeah, that story just blew my mind. Um, but Those are all the reasons we need the cg. Well,That's a few of them. I Think. I mean, but I mean, those are, everything I've said so far are reasons. Right, right, right. Yeah. But not all, I don't mean all like No, the list goes on. I, and we could talk about it for a very long time. I, I, I do really wanna have, and maybe we'll do a whole month of Choreographers Guild once we open for membership, um, have several different executive board members come on to share stories. Um, but yeah, th this, one of the objectives of the podcast is to be normalizing conversations about choreography. It's the importance of it to kind of demystify it. Let's talk about how much money we make. Let's talk about how much money it costs. Let's talk about how much time it takes. Let's talk about process. Let's talk about, you know, all all the things. I love <laugh>. Actually Toni Basil said these words the other night. Happy b happy 40th birthday. Hey Mickey. Um, Toni Basil had a 40th anniversary for Hey Mickey party. And she said at the end, something to this effect. The only thing I love more than dancing is talking about dancing <laugh>. And I very much resonated with that. Cause I'm not 80 yet, but already my knees have to be iced and my back hurts. <laugh>. Oh honey, I could talk about dancing for a very long time. <laugh>. Oh my goodness. This is great. What a gift. Accidental gift. So I have a Mike Nichols story. I have a Mike Nichols story thanks to Toni Basil who hired me to be in the opening scene of Charlie Wilson's war. Oh yeah. And, um, it's a hot tub scene. Tom Hanks is in there, he's naked. But I remember being very uncomfortable when Tom Hanks walked by in these little nude brief lits. And I was just like, what is my life? <laugh> <laugh>. But I, we were meant to be like, kind of two stepping, and, you know, basil is like specialist at period specific party dance. So we were, we were dancing around. And then Mike says, uh, n n not loud, not in a big way, but like, can we have a few of the dancers over here in this room? Um, doing some cocaine, something like over here in this, in this little nook over there. And so, like Tony says, the names of the people, she wants to go in there and we, like, she brings us in. And I was like, Tony, I have no idea how to do cocaine. <laugh>, I, you're gonna have to show like, you're gonna have to choreograph it. You're gonna have to teach me. And she was like, well, a lady would use her fingernail and take it up like this and plug her little, I was just on set with my heroes being taught how to do cocaine <laugh> by Toni Basil in front of Mike Nichols. Like, whoa, this, this in this little fetus in a, in a spandex spano dress in heels just that goes into your book. Yeah. That'll go in my book for here. <laugh>. Well, it's, it's kind of become a signature of mine lately is a really encouraging humanness in dance. I think there has become, the level of teaching is so high, the level of exposure is so high. Young people are able to really dance, like really exquisite dance. But if I ask them to go into a room and pretend to do cocaine, <laugh>, this is not where I'm meant to go with this story. <laugh>. Um, that's, that's actually not what, I mean, I'm probably don't wanna know how many young people do know how to do cocaine, but Exactly. It's the humanness, especially of young people. Like, could you pretend to be at a soccer game and watch your friend win? But the win isn't just your arms up, it's a sote or it's a, you know, it's, it's a pike arabesque, but your friend just won. Can you do it like a human, not a dancing robot? Um, so I think that's like, one of the things that reminded me again of Toni Basil in your book is early on, like in the, uh, in your first exposure to dance, you talk about approaching it as an actor. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So you pretended to be Baryshnikov in ballet class, or you pretended to be one of those, you know Yeah. Russian. Yeah. We're like super pros. And one of my favorite Basil quotes of all time, cuz you know, she still gets it in every single day, she dances Oh yeah. Every single day. And I asked her one day, do you ever like not want to dance? Like, is there ever a day where you're like, oh God, I just not today. And she said, absolutely all the time. And I was like, what do you do? Like, how do you get past that point? And she said, I pretend like I'm someone who does want to dance. Ah. Or I pretend like I'm the devil, or I pretend like I'm an angel and then all of a sudden moving my body isn't the worst thing. And so I really love you and Basil both share this, the idea of approaching dance from the imagination and from a character or, or story or even mood, even in just emotional value place versus a mechanical place. And, um, so I just, I wanted to thank you for that and putting it so plainly. Like, I took class as an actor and I was like, yes, that more of that. Please can we have more people out there approaching dance as actors versus as dancers? Absolutely. Absolutely. It makes it such a complete experience. And also when it's just purely technical, of course we enjoy watching it. Like we enjoy watching the Olympics. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, we, we, we are fascinated by bodies that can do incredible feats. But when you are performing to me, you are in a way a well, I know it sounds weird, but a shaman. Hmm. And it's our responsibility to take people with whatever's coming through us, which comes from, I believe, a very sacred place. But the exchange that we have to do with the people that we're giving this to, whether it's through the camera or live, it's a very sacred exchange. And if, if dancers don't realize that including the emotional reality and the emotional reason behind the movement is not important, then they're really missing something, not only for themselves, but for the completed artistic experience. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So fortunately for me, I came from a place of being of an actor and I, I've always been story oriented or narrative oriented. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> looser or tighter. But with all my projects, pretty much, I've asked people to create a biography for themselves. Who are they, what are they doing? Why are they here? Whether it's a coco, a Pepsi Cola commercial, or a smooth criminal mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, how, how do you relate so that when the camera catches a dancer, it's not just a dancer, it's a human being. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you see something going on behind the eyes, you see something going on in the head and the heart. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, and it touches you as an audience in a whole different way. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> the way that you're supposed to be touched. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, yeah. I really, I am such a firm, firm supporter of ac, of dancers, taking some acting class. This is a circle back moment because potentially awkward moment. What you are saying, I think does overlap, or at least zipper a little bit with the role of a director. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And one of the things that you touch on in your book is how a lot of, uh, maybe not a lot relative to all, but like a great number of directors will have friction towards a choreographer because they believe they will be, or maybe threatened, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I, I am curious how you navigate those moments, both, like in, you talk about this a lot in the book, like in the moment of being hired or the, your pitch to be put into a job. You talk a lot about, like, it's my job to, you know, serve you the vision. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but also, let's be real, you are doing part of their job because of your way, and that's why they brought, that's why they want you. That's the work that they saw. That was the reason you're in the room, is you doing that. So how do you explain that to them and how do you do that work in a, in a way that is not threatening or is it threatening and sometimes you just exist in a uncomfortable relationship, like the Evita one. Yeah. Well, I, I've been really fortunate, Dana, that that situation has not happened to me very often. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> couple times, um, how Prince, um, Alan Parker on Avita mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but in those situations too, you know, I mean, I stood up for myself. I would, I, I took so much abuse until it was time for me to say, Uhuh, no more Uhuh. This is the way it is. If you don't like it, byebye, I'll go, you know, get somebody else. But, um, I, I just think it's, I don't know, I, it's if we can't, if we can't be ourselves, and if we can't, the reason that we are hired on something is because we obviously have a gift and somebody has seen it and they want to have it mm-hmm. <affirmative> to share it mm-hmm. <affirmative> or exploit it, or whatever they wanna do with it. If they keep putting restrictions on us all the time, right. Then we're not giving them what they ultimately want it in the first place. And oftentimes they can't even see it. So I've always made it very clear with every director who, who's ever felt, who I've ever felt an inkling of nervousness around, uh, ego wise mm-hmm. <affirmative> to just say, look, man, I, yes, I'm a director, but not right now. Right now, my only the the way I'm acting as a director is to direct these people and give that to you so you have something to work with, to finally mold it into your final picture, rather than just getting somebody cold in front of you. A cold, lifeless body that's hard to work with. <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. I'm filling in all the gaps for you. So when they come to you, you can do whatever you want with them. So that's the way I, I've always approached it, but fortunately, I've, I've been so, oh, so lucky to have wonderful directors who've respected me and appreciated me, and mm-hmm. <affirmative> given me the opportunity to do what I can do. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I've been very, very lucky that way. That's awesome. I'm, I'm particularly interested in this because as we'll become, like, as the Choreographer's Guild evolves, we're gonna start talking about distinctions between different, um, well, specifically focused on the choreography team. What's the distinguishing difference between an assistant and an associate, a co choreographer and a supervising choreographer, an associate, a movement coach. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> or a movement director. And I think about those things a lot. I think about the ways I define all sorts of things, but for me, when I hear myself or when I like watch myself teaching, and I listen to the way I'm explaining what I am trying to get out of, you know, the person Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, It almost starts with, imagine you're this or think that, um, you're being pulled in this direction by someone you care about, and that this, I al I rarely explain things in dance terms, which I think would in some ways maybe make a director more comfortable. Like, oh, there's the dance person doing the thing. I don't know. There's the dance person speaking the language. I don't speak, that's why I brought them here. But when a dance person is using character words or story words, narrative words, uh, uh, human words. Yep. I think that it's better for the talent, especially if they're a non dancer, but might be more threatening to, um, somebody in a director or acting Absolutely. More acting focused position. So it's good to hear you say that, like it's the jumping off point, and I will use whatever language I need to, to get the material to a place that's ready to be handled by you, the director. I love that approach, that Thank you for that. Well, I do, I, I, I, in my book, you know, when I was working on Dancer in the Dark with our vri, he always came up with these manifestos, so I created my own. Oh, goodness. Yes, you did. Will you, do you remember it? Could you, could you rattle it off? Well, I actually, oh, I have, I have it in my book because I thought it was cool, you know, I do too. That was one of my favorite parts, actually. Well, as when I created it, it, interestingly enough, it was for myself as a choreographer in that situation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but I use it as my manifesto now in everything I direct. Okay. Let's hear it. Um, but I'll read it as I, as I created it. So the first one was allow the director's vision to speak through me. Then second, be true to my artistic heart and voice. Ask questions, and then ask more questions. Listen, with patience and understanding, instruct gently and clearly with inspiration and kindness, remember to say thank you. Continue to, to ask, have I taken enough risks? Does the work scare me? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> eight, allow change and be grateful for it. Nine, learn something. 10, a big one, enjoy myself. Yes. So, I've found that I can use these, this manifesto when I'm directing, it's the same thing, you know? Um, and it's really come in handy for me, and it reminds me when I get so involved in stuff, you know, I'll pull this out and I'll read it. I'll look at it. I have it on a little page that I keep it with, with my computer bag, and, you know, and I'll just look at it and I'll go, oh, yeah, there's listen with, you know, clarity and patience. You know, be happy for change. Enjoy yourself, learn something. These are all things that sometimes we get so caught up that we forget to remind ourselves to do it. Totally. Um, yeah. So listen, you know, you said you didn't wanna be gabbing for this long, but we've gone on for an hour now. I know we've done it. I should wrap it up. And that has a wonderful place to wrap because those, a list of 10 things to think about, even if you touch on three of the 10 in one workday, just that level of awareness to be thinking about that is a huge transition. I hope that is a gift to everyone listening as well as myself. So are you, Vincent, thank you for your time. Your wonderful example for us. Thank you. Thank you, Dana. Thank you. And I'm just gonna plug myself here for a second. Do it. It's backwards, but whatever, blah, blah, blah Icon, icon & instinct. Uh, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm happy with, I'll tell you just one quick little story. Yeah. Please. Before we go. Um, I, last week I got the most beautiful, um, message on Facebook from a young girl, 18 years old in Toronto. She's a young dancer, young choreographer. She wrote me and she said, I'm probably gonna cry <laugh> do it, and this podcast with some tears, but that's all right. She wrote me and she said, I wanted so much to read your book, but I'm horribly dyslexic and I can't read. She said, I haven't spoken to my parents really in a very long time, but your book encouraged me to contact them. And I called them up, and they live not too far away. We rarely ever see each other. They, I told them how much I wanted to have this read this book, and they said, honey, if you come over to the house, we will read the book to you every night this week until the book is done. And she said it created a relationship with her and her parents that she hadn't had in many, many years. So write your stories, everybody, write your stories, share them. You don't know who you're going to affect. You don't know who's live you're gonna touch and maybe change for the better, you know? So anyway, thank you so much, Dana, for inviting me to be on this with you. Thank you so much, sweetheart. Thank you, Vincent. I hope that this podcast reaches that listener as one of the, one of the reasons why I love this medium so much. I know a lot of people who, uh, wave the dance flag freely are not, some, not all of them, myself included, avid readers. Um, and so I think that there's a way to speak our stories too, but I, something about the permanence of the page and the element of imagination, like really was able to put myself in the room there with you, even though I wasn't there. Like, that's a very special thing. So thank you again. Have a wonderful rest of your day, and, uh, we'll talk again soon. Okay. Bye bye. … Dana: All right, my friends. What do you think? Um, I hope you are as moved as I am from that conversation. So much to be gained from Vincent, his clarity, his perspective, and his enthusiasm as well as his emotionality. I think it's important. Uh, and actually after we wrapped up this call, he apologized. He said, I'm sorry for getting so emotional. And I said, oh, man, I think emotion is a choreographer's superpower. I'm very glad that the people, um, creating, directing and organizing the movement that we see on screens and in shows, I think it's important that those, that those people be people who understand feelings, uh, and he clearly feels them so fully understands them so well, and is great at explaining them through movement. Um, please do yourself a favor, read icons and instincts. I'm so curious to hear what you think. Please tell me. I love to converse about that. Um, it, it truly read to me and brought up so much for me. It read a little bit like a, a zoomed out, very distant experience like me on the outside looking in. And also there were moments of, like I said in the episode, like feeling very in it. Um, it was very cool to be in there in my imagination, watching him work. Uh, I, I hope you get a chance to read it. And again, I'd love to hear what you think. Also, I will be linking to some of the outstanding moments that Vincent mentions, um, in the episode. I'll link to all of that in the show notes. I will also link to where you can grab the book, um, and the Choreographer's Guild website, which will very, very soon be open for membership. Proud to announce. Um, alright, I think that is it for me today. Keep it funky I’ll talk to you soon. … Outro: This podcast was produced by me with the help of many music by Max Winnie, logo and brand design by Bree Reetz, and big thanks to Riley Higgins, our executive assistant and editor also massive, thanks to you. The mover, who is no stranger to taking action. So go take action. I will not cannot stop you from downloading episodes or leaving a review into rating. I will not ban you from my online store for spending your hard earned money on the cool merch and awesome programs that await you. There. I will. 100% not stop you from visiting wordsthatmoveme.com. If you wanna talk with me, work with me and make moves with the rest of the words that move me community. Oh, and also I will not stop you from visiting thedanawilson.com. If you're curious about all the things that I do that are not words that move me related. all right, my friend, keep it funky. I'll talk to you soon.