Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Also, you're not leading into the mic. And I find myself that I am.
[00:00:02] Speaker B: I just. I bring it.
[00:00:04] Speaker A: You've. Oh, you've done this.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: Now I'm fucking it up. Just.
[00:00:07] Speaker A: We're doing great. We're all doing great.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Everybody's doing. Everybody's doing.
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Riley's doing great. Wrist rolls. Julie is doing great. Wrist roll is doing great. You guys are doing great. Great. You're listening. Are doing great.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Great job.
One, two, three. Hey, everyone, it's me, Dana. This is words that move me. I am super giggly right now because our guest today is hysterical and wonderful and smart and exciting and good and better than good. She is great. The one and only Kat Burns revisits words that move me today. We did our first episode together way back in 2020. It's episode number 16. Definitely worth a listen. But today is even more special, dare I say, because we have a mystery surprise guest caller. We dig into some very important choreographers guild updates. We talk pretty seriously about artificial intelligence and how it is impacting dancing choreographers already and how it likely will in the future and stick around to the very, very end of the episode because we have a ridiculous bonus story for you, dear listener, watcher. Okay, but before we get into all of that, we'll do wins. Today I am celebrating really loving my new home at ML, the movement lifestyle I'm teaching every other Tuesday right now. And this past week's class really filled my love cup. Thank you to everybody for coming out. Riley, I'm sorry you were sick and wasn't there. And I'm not sharing this win to spite you or to punish you for not being there. And I'm not even just celebrating this past week's class. I'm celebrating cultivating community.
I'm celebrating enunciation.
And the space that Sean and I and the ML team have created is so magical. If you're in Los Angeles, please stop by Tuesdays eleven to one or every other Tuesday, eleven to one. Stay tuned on the instagram. That's where I always share when and what I will be teaching. And because what I teach, by the way, I call it jazz plus.
Jazz plus. Whatever I'm feeling at the moment, emphasis on feelings. But you never really know what you're going to get. So I do try on my stories beforehand before I teach to give you a heads up at least, what to wear on your feet or what to be prepared for. Anyways. That's me. That's jazz plus, that's what I'm celebrating this week. Now you go. What's going well in your world.
Congratulations. I'm glad you're winning. And I'm even more glad, no offense to you, that my dog is my dog. Wristroll. The dog is my dog. Oh, she's in a middle split right now. I hope the wide is picking that up. It might not be, but wow.
Just like her mom.
Really open in the hips.
Okay, my friends, congratulations on winning. Let's get into this conversation with the one and only cat burns.
Okay, are you ready for this?
[00:03:32] Speaker A: Dun dun dun dun dun, dun, dun. There it is.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: Ready for this?
[00:03:44] Speaker A: Take it away. Hey, is that licks instead of a.
[00:03:47] Speaker B: What I just thought was, like, the coolest intro we've ever had on the podcast?
[00:03:51] Speaker A: Oh, we've started.
[00:03:52] Speaker B: This is why I'm so stoked to be in the video format now, because that's just something a listener would have never had the gift of having in their life, is what just happened.
[00:04:03] Speaker A: A tiny pug dance.
[00:04:04] Speaker B: Tiny pug dance. Just here for you.
My guest today, my friends, the one and only cat burns. Welcome back.
[00:04:10] Speaker A: Thank you. Two times, two timer.
[00:04:13] Speaker B: Did you know our round one was in 2020?
[00:04:17] Speaker A: I was thinking about it.
[00:04:18] Speaker B: April 2020. I still had vocal cord cyst. My voice sounds like cool rap, and, yeah, definitely pack a day status. And this was pre Benny and Bruce, your dogs. This is pre choreographers guild. This is pre divorce. For me, this feels like a really long time ago.
[00:04:41] Speaker A: Yeah, it was height of pandemic. Or had it started yet? What was the date?
[00:04:45] Speaker B: April something.
[00:04:46] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:04:47] Speaker B: So we were in lockdown, but it was pretty early.
[00:04:49] Speaker A: Pretty scary. Scary time.
[00:04:50] Speaker B: Early lockdown. Super scary times.
[00:04:51] Speaker A: But, like, kind of fun and exciting. Not really at all. Still had, like, a few months.
[00:04:57] Speaker B: Yeah, we were like, this is fun.
It wasn't really nasty yet, or it wasn't too heavy yet, but we did get to talking about some heavy duty is.
[00:05:08] Speaker A: This is great.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: No one's listening at this point. They're just watching the event that listen to. Oh, she's in peak cute mode. Everyone, if you're just listening to the podcast today, strongly consider taking a walk over to YouTube, because risral is in supreme cute mode.
We were just joking that she's a representative from cute hell. She's the official ambassador of cute hell, and she's just terrorizing cat right now. Thank you for monitoring the pup.
[00:05:36] Speaker A: She's covering my pooch. Speaking of pooches.
[00:05:39] Speaker B: Stop it.
[00:05:39] Speaker A: Do people call pooches? You know what I'm saying?
[00:05:42] Speaker B: Fupo, my password that people use. Yeah, but I feel like that.
[00:05:45] Speaker A: I feel like, that probably stands for bed words.
[00:05:48] Speaker B: That's true. It does.
[00:05:49] Speaker A: Because I said it once, and my brother and sister in law were like. And I was like, oh, I don't actually really know what that acronym is. I probably shouldn't say that again.
[00:05:55] Speaker B: Well, you're from Texas and a more conservative family. More conservative, but conservative relative to us is kind of a lot of the world. Yeah. Okay, so last time you were here, we talked about kind of your atypical pathway to being. Doing what you're doing. Not a studio kid, not a person who has been training at dance and followed dance paths the whole time. Sure, we talked a little bit about having a lot of OD jobs. I want to revisit that for a hot second. But also, obviously, I just want you to go back and listen that whole episode. I want to go into some uncharted territory today. But first, you must introduce yourself. I asked you to do this last time. Also. You crushed it.
[00:06:39] Speaker A: I did? Yeah.
[00:06:40] Speaker B: It's always interesting to hear how people prefer to introduce themselves and what they lead with. And I wonder if you'll introduce yourself differently today than before.
[00:06:52] Speaker A: Did I say I was a terpsichorean genius?
Hello, I'm Catherine Burns. I'm a terpsichorean genius. No, I would have never said that. Wowzers. Well, my name is Catherine Burns. Maybe you probably said people like to call me cat because cat burns sounds jazzy.
And we don't have time for full names or correct spelling. And showbiz.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: No time. No time for that. No time.
[00:07:16] Speaker A: I thought about those. I'm a proud aunt of eight. I have eight nieces and nephews.
[00:07:21] Speaker B: I don't talk about that a lot.
[00:07:22] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. The oldest four in college.
Yeah, I know.
A dog mom of two. Two. Giant. Giant. German shepherd, belgian mound wall dogs. Was a cat lady before this. So former cat lady, current attack dog mom. Yeah, we have two guard dogs ready for war in case that happens in the last one.
[00:07:42] Speaker B: Because you weren't that yet.
[00:07:43] Speaker A: I wasn't that yet.
[00:07:44] Speaker B: Fantastic.
[00:07:45] Speaker A: Still embodying it. And then a choreographer. Mostly choreographing comedic episodic stuff. And have been lucky enough to win two Emmy awards for it, which is nuts. So another two timer and president of the Choreographers Guild. Inaugural presidente.
[00:08:03] Speaker B: Super cool. First ever. President of the first ever choreographers Guild.
[00:08:08] Speaker A: It's pretty rad. Well, with your vp, my humble servant.
[00:08:13] Speaker B: As one of the four vice presidents. Shout out Kyle Hanagami Luam and Dominique Kelly. Also inaugural leadership.
[00:08:20] Speaker A: It's amazing.
[00:08:20] Speaker B: And we're having our first election this year, it's a big time for the guild.
[00:08:23] Speaker A: It does feel weird to say I'm president of it, because I just think I was the stubborn one that kept the conversation going, and everyone was like, sure, keep going. And I tried not to be.
[00:08:32] Speaker B: We'll follow, we'll follow, we'll follow. Yeah. You did try to pass that out.
[00:08:36] Speaker A: Well, I just was like, I don't want to speak on behalf of people, but I just wanted to make sure people were talking to each other.
[00:08:42] Speaker B: Did you nominate other people to be president for our election?
[00:08:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's important to nominate me. Well, no, because we've already talked about this.
[00:08:49] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:08:49] Speaker A: You've already said I love you, but I think I'm happy where I am.
[00:08:52] Speaker B: I'm maxed out where I'm at.
[00:08:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: In my position.
Somebody nominated me, and I did politely decline. I am not prepared for that moment yet. Well, and I think, listen, that you are doing a fantastic job.
[00:09:08] Speaker A: You're very kind.
[00:09:09] Speaker B: I love the way that you lead. That means a lot. But also, I know that you are one of the busiest types that mean usually, well, not every choreo guild meeting that we have, but on almost every one that we have, you're on a gig, and I am wondering, is that also true for Fran Drescher? Are there any other presidents of unions that are on the gig on a daily. I don't think so. I think you deserve a huge pat on your back. Thanks for being a working person, working in more places than one most often.
[00:09:47] Speaker A: I appreciate that. But I think it takes a village, and that's the whole point of the guild, is it's not a business. I'm not the CEO. I'm not a dictator. It's a group of people coming together to make change happen. And so we have Steve Zadawi, who keeps us consistent and steady with organizing and strategy. And we have AJ as secretary treasurer. Come on now, Amanda.
[00:10:08] Speaker B: Joe Harpold, man, big love for you. Our leadership is stacked. Our executive board is gorgeous, and we.
[00:10:14] Speaker A: Have Linda helping us now. Two paid employees, admin.
[00:10:18] Speaker B: Yeah, we've come pretty far. They need to get also acknowledge we've had meetings with the copyright office of the actual us government.
[00:10:26] Speaker A: Us government. Heard of it.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: Heard of it. You guys, the actual fed.
[00:10:30] Speaker A: And we people. And we're like, let's talk about in.
[00:10:34] Speaker B: The zoom with ourselves. And they've got, I swear it wasn't even a Zoom address. It was like a gov login, but it was a zoom.
[00:10:43] Speaker A: I think I was just landing. I remember I was just landing in New York. Had to do a was like I jumped onto the zoom in craziness of New York trying to find a cab, listening to just really smart jargon and trying to be like, what's all that mean? I'm paying attention, I swear. Ignore the.
[00:11:00] Speaker B: That. Well, the meeting was about learning on both parts, them learning us and us learning them. And I think we both walked away with a greater sense of how we can help each other. So that was a good one. We had our membership launch in March, which is almost exactly a year ago. We've had meetings with SDC. We've had meetings with stage directors and Choreographers Guild out in New York. I guess the Society of Stage Directors and Society.
[00:11:29] Speaker A: I wish we really missed the ball on that one. Why are we the Society of Choreographers. That's it. The Society of Choreographers. And we all had to work.
[00:11:39] Speaker B: Really want to meet in some fantastical science fiction like the realm of the choreography.
[00:11:45] Speaker A: We did talk about that.
[00:11:47] Speaker B: And we should mandatorily wear capes or something.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: Great.
[00:11:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: With stars on it.
[00:11:52] Speaker B: We'll circle back.
What other big mile markers have we seen? I know I should have wrote them.
[00:11:59] Speaker A: Down on my notes from the guild.
[00:12:02] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:12:03] Speaker A: I mean, we supported Sagafter with the strike.
[00:12:06] Speaker B: Hi. Yes, please. I think five solidarity pickets for me. I love that shit. Yeah, I love that shit. That's. You and I never overlapped. We don't think it's spreading out the forces.
[00:12:17] Speaker A: The troops divide and conquer, you know?
[00:12:19] Speaker B: Yes. And I think heading into our election is a big one. Working towards having an award show soon out there in the future.
[00:12:28] Speaker A: But some magazine is in the works.
[00:12:32] Speaker B: That's correct.
[00:12:33] Speaker A: Standards and practices is in the works. Or the rollout is in the works.
[00:12:37] Speaker B: At least the rollout of choreographers Guild standards. The rollout of just wrist roll.
[00:12:43] Speaker A: The wrist rollout.
[00:12:44] Speaker B: Digging herself a tunnel through my new carpet. New podcast rug welcome. Cute. A couple things also that are really important to us that we're making some headway on the IMDb credit situation. This is a big conversation we keep having and talks around. AI. We are. Yeah. Really exciting. I've been doing some personal digging, cat. Okay. I want to scared this language. I want to understand it. And I'm getting there and I'm jacked up enough about it to really be learning.
[00:13:16] Speaker A: Like in an angry or both.
[00:13:19] Speaker B: Genuinely both. I think we need guide rails and we really need protection. And the choreographers Guild is very well positioned to be the front person, the front entity for that there's some scary stuff, but there's some exciting stuff. I can now think of so many uses for it that would be helpful for us.
[00:13:37] Speaker A: Like what?
[00:13:38] Speaker B: So that's exciting.
[00:13:38] Speaker A: Also, am I supposed to look at. You're so good at casually talking to me and then being like, right.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: Anyways, I use direct down the barrel for emphasis. But I do like looking at your face.
[00:13:50] Speaker A: Me too.
No, you're doing great.
I'm giving myself notes. Also, I started the podcast trying to be cool.
My voice.
[00:14:01] Speaker B: How's it going now?
[00:14:03] Speaker A: I'm very into my. I'm trying to be like, she's not annoying to listen to voice or myself. I'm grappling between the two. It's grappling word. It is just going.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: It is now fluctuating and grappling.
Is it?
[00:14:16] Speaker A: I'm just looking at Riley.
[00:14:17] Speaker B: We're going to pull sound bites from the beginning of the interview, the middle, and we'll see where you are in your student voice. Can't wait. I don't remember what I was talking about.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: I distracted you with the AI.
[00:14:28] Speaker B: Here's what it is.
[00:14:29] Speaker A: What are you excited about?
[00:14:30] Speaker B: One of the things we talked about in our first. Oh, okay. We'll put that in a parking lot. One of the things we talked about in the first episode, or in our first episode, which was number 16. I just did 200. Oh, it's nuts.
[00:14:43] Speaker A: Congratulations, Dana. Also, shout out to you for this amazing podcast that's so informative and fun.
[00:14:50] Speaker B: And thank you to you, Riley Higgins, because I couldn't do it without you.
We should write music.
One of the things we talked about is being friends and being working people in the world and it being hard to carve out time to sit with each other. And I think you and I kind of recently have been better at that. But it's not that often that we get to sit and talk shop freely. Usually there's like, we can do that while we're waiting for them to be setting up lights or while we're waiting for a wardrobe to be ready for us or whatever.
I really like being able to converse in this way.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: It's lovely.
[00:15:30] Speaker B: One of the things I'm excited about for AI, as a person who struggles to keep my materials together. Okay. Could you imagine if every time you pooped out a new thing on tv, it just got added to your reel and edited in time with the music and fit into the thing?
[00:15:47] Speaker A: Yeah. It's kind of like my friend's birthdays where I pretend like I spent hours on putting together this video of our favorite pictures to music when in fact it was your computer. Yeah, I mean, that is AI, right?
[00:15:58] Speaker B: Yes, it is. And I think it will get better at it. And we'll be able to pull and catalog and maybe even organize your work based on year based on if it was scripted or not, based on if it was tv or film.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: So it already does that with your photos, though. So what's the difference? You mean like, just.
[00:16:13] Speaker B: It's a higher.
What if I never had to rip shit off the Internet and then edit it together? Because I don't. I mean, like, so let's. Here's a good example. You and I overlap. We have both choreographed for the show, the morning show. Apple is notorious for not sharing, like, and rarely ever. It's not just Apple. You don't get the footage of the thing that you did. You, along with everybody else, goes and looks it up on YouTube. And then you can use some video converter or some way download it from YouTube and then hope that the file format matches all the rest of the shit that you have in your real.
But for that one, you can't download it. You can't screen record it, because on your Apple device, it won't allow you to screen record Apple content, which is clever. So it's hard to even have all your footage. What if AI could get it all and organize it for you and update the things as they happened? That's one. Number two, I don't know about you, but I would actually love to hear your process for casting. Having to look through submissions that aren't very well organized. Me trying to remember who have I hired before? What if it could keep a web of every call sheet that I've ever been on and show me who else was on that call sheet? Like, where do I overlap with directors? Or have I ever worked with that lighting designer? Have I ever worked with this camera operator? What dancers were on that job with me? And it would be really nice to see overlap from gigs and to have all my material in a place. I actually just recorded a podcast episode about this. I talk about a couple of other uses, one that I think would be really useful because I do a lot of site specific choreography. Almost never are we capturing the dance in a dance studio, right? But we create it in a dance studio. So what if you could capture rehearsal footage and then through some AI filter, people be able to see what it would look like on the day and know, like, okay, actually, it's too dense over there. Take those three people, move them over there, and what would it look like if we added a tier of people up here? Or if we put more people on a bridge? Show me that.
[00:18:27] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:18:28] Speaker B: So that on the day, you're not trying shit, you're just executing shit. I understand that that does mean less shoot time or less overtime. And we all love that overtime money. But if we really could be working more effectively and more prepared on the day, then we would be able to enjoy our process there. Less emergencies, less putting out fires, being more prepared.
[00:18:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, as you were speaking, I was like, well, so much for the editors in the world. Because you're like, what if an AI could edit things for you? Sorry, editor. VFX.
Heartbreaking. I don't know. For me personally, I love your enthusiasm. And one thing as a friend that I always appreciate and colleague is you're optimistic and you're goal oriented with tasks and organizational methods to accomplish said goals versus just grand, verbose thoughts without any follow through. So your follow through and tenacity and system is quite exciting. When it comes to AI, though, I just like. I'm like, we definitely have to safeguard our work and choreographers in general, because the agents can protect us. Only a union can. And so that's really crucial that we band together on this. We also have vps and people in leadership that are meeting with the heads of these tech companies, and they're looking to them as pioneers of choreography and AI and making sure we are protecting our work and I guess furthering the information of what can be together in a respectful way, hopefully.
[00:20:07] Speaker B: Yeah, we're co writing the way that these systems will be built.
[00:20:13] Speaker A: And what's hopeful for me about the guild is versus this one person doing it and having it benefit their own life or whatever it may be. They're sharing their information with us and hopefully, like, generations to come, because you need people to help, because once you figure out how to be a choreographer on your own, everything, you're like, okay, I've spent a decade, and now I get it. And then you're like, yikes, wow. I'm still fighting with the same issues that I didn't know I needed to fight with. You know what I mean? I just think coming up in any industry, you think once I make it or once I'm successful or once I quit my other jobs, I'll be taken more seriously or whatever. But then as choreographers, when we started talking to each other, we're like, oh, wait, we've all separately been fighting the same battles, but not getting anywhere as a group. So I don't want us to wait for AI, because that would be horrific.
[00:20:57] Speaker B: Horrific. We're not waiting. We're starting conversations now, which actually is technically late. I didn't know, but. Well, anyways, it's been around for a while. We've been using Siri on our phones for years and years.
[00:21:10] Speaker A: Lindsay choreographed a robot. Remember Lindsay and Craig choreographed that, like, sexy robot in Mocha?
[00:21:15] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:21:16] Speaker A: I don't know where it was, but it was, like, had a little skirt. It was hot.
[00:21:19] Speaker B: This is important.
[00:21:21] Speaker A: I really like Riley. Just hiding her, laughing behind the robot. Can you tell? I'm, like, new. Used to doing comedy shows where I'm like, please laugh out loud. I'm uncomfortable.
[00:21:30] Speaker B: That's the next phase. So, phase one of the podcast was Riverside FM. Actually, phase one was on Zoom. Phase two was Riverside. This software that we used to record online. And now we're in person in my living room. And the next phase is tour. Live noise, live audience with a plumbing.
[00:21:48] Speaker A: Riverside FM was, to me, was like a valley studio. It was like switch or die. Although Riverside FM.
[00:21:55] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
Riverside FM. I made that.
[00:21:58] Speaker A: This is where it's at. Movement. Sorry I distracted you. Or actually, I distracted us.
[00:22:02] Speaker B: No, it's okay. I wanted. Natural flow is good.
[00:22:06] Speaker A: Oh, sorry. But I was going to say it's, like, bleak. It's hard and scary. And I think I'd be remiss not to say the pandemic, which we're still in the pandemic, but the shutdown. Lockdown time was very hard, and obviously. And we lost your friends, and it was a crisis of industry. Also, the strike was obviously a crisis of industry. And now with AI, I'm like, it's also a crisis of industry. And then I'm like, are people even watching tv or movies? Is a TikTok generation just, like, mindlessly scrolling and their brains turning to mush? But does it matter? Because robots are going to run for president anyway, so whatever.
[00:22:43] Speaker B: That's a great question. Does it matter? And the answer is, if you feel like it matters, then it matters.
[00:22:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:49] Speaker B: And even if you're terrified, that's a feeling that fucking matters, right? Hopeful is a feeling that fucking matters. And from those feelings that are important, we will go forth and make change that we see best fits our community. And that's how it's always been done.
There's been crisis upon crisis upon crisis forever. That's the human existence.
[00:23:11] Speaker A: We used to use a railroad.
[00:23:14] Speaker B: We used to ride our railroad to.
[00:23:17] Speaker A: Get the big old citizen the place.
[00:23:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
And to what end? I guess that's kind of the bigger question about AI, right?
In the long, long game, does it make our lives better the way that some.
[00:23:35] Speaker A: Do you think we're now going to be Jetsons? We're going to literally hover cars?
[00:23:40] Speaker B: Are we living in the Terminator world? Are we living in black Mars machina? Are we living in self aware AI turns on us and knocks us out.
I love a dystopian future movie.
It is my rose colored glasses. I can't imagine that in my lifetime. And that's why I'm not having kids, my friends. Because if we really drag that fuel goal post out long enough, of course there's the end. There's going to be the end of everything. There's going to be the end. But I don't think it's robots.
[00:24:16] Speaker A: What is it that does it?
Giant pugs attacking us?
[00:24:22] Speaker B: Dystopian future movies. Have you heard of this movie, Mitchell's versus machines?
[00:24:26] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, I've worked with them. They're awesome.
That's Lord Miller that did after party.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: They're brilliant.
[00:24:31] Speaker A: Yeah, they're so great.
[00:24:33] Speaker B: It is one of my favorite movies.
[00:24:34] Speaker A: It's such a good movie. So good animated. But it doesn't, I mean, it's so relatable and like, you think you're watching a real family.
[00:24:41] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And there's a pug features heavily in the movie that actually is what saves humanity because the AI cannot tell the difference between a dog, a pig and a loaf of bread. So the AI, like, short circuits. It's like dog, pig, loaf of bread, dog, pig. And there are moments where she just looks like a little toasted loaf. A little toasted loaf.
[00:25:02] Speaker A: Loaf should be your nickname.
[00:25:04] Speaker B: So we're going to come back to conversations about AI as they kind of evolve and we can do like little tiny update bits, but it is going to be obviously an ongoing conversation and things are changing.
[00:25:15] Speaker A: Your necklace is really cute, by the way.
[00:25:16] Speaker B: Thank you. The green one target cute and do not disturb mode. And I am. But my favorites can get through. And guess who that favorite is? Jilly, should we pick up? This has happened before, actually.
Jillian Myers, you're live on words that move me right now. Oh, hello. Words that move me. Friends, I've got Kat burns on my left and I feel like you've called once before and I also answered. I don't remember who I was with, but you're in my favorites list, which means that you default get to filter through the.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: Is this like how to. What's that game show about how to make a millionaire. What's that game show?
[00:25:59] Speaker B: You want to be a millionaire?
[00:26:00] Speaker A: You want to be a millionaire? So lifeline. Yes. What was? Jillian, your question, what is the longest railroad in America?
Tick, tick, tick. You got 10 seconds.
[00:26:14] Speaker B: Isn't it multiple choice usually?
[00:26:16] Speaker A: Well, I just made this up. Okay, I'm improvising. This wasn't a plan.
[00:26:19] Speaker B: Julie, is it ABC or.
Oh, let's go with D. You're correct.
[00:26:25] Speaker A: It is d. Isn't there one that.
[00:26:27] Speaker B: Goes all the way through the. Not Rockies, but it's far. There's a really fun trip, I think, that they make out of it anyways. Okay, I should know the name.
[00:26:36] Speaker A: I don't know the answer.
[00:26:37] Speaker B: We don't, but we're going to find out. It's going to be at the bottom of the screen in just a second. But you're correct. It was D. The answer was d. Good job, Jilly.
What's up? This is excellent because both of you could be a lifeline for my question.
[00:26:51] Speaker A: Great.
[00:26:52] Speaker B: Let's hear it as a sense of maybe choreographer guild related. Nice.
Juicy. Is. And what is the rules? One of replicating choreography of someone else's.
[00:27:06] Speaker A: Great question.
[00:27:07] Speaker B: Kat is a fantastic person to talk to about this because she has successfully both parodied and not parodied, but gotten credit for the original choreographer adapted by language. So take it away, Kat.
[00:27:21] Speaker A: Thank you, Jilly. Thank you for calling in to WTMM live at Riverside.
[00:27:26] Speaker B: We should.
[00:27:32] Speaker A: Okay, well, first off, I have some questions of what it's for, but maybe you can share that. But I guess I'll just give two examples. So in parody, law looks like feels like is saying something else. So if it's an episodic show or even think like, weird Al, right? Like, he does parodies of something, so the choreography should feel, like, in the vein. But it's kind of an artistic choice not to use full eight counts. Like, maybe a move will be a signifier to what the world is, or maybe just like, for me, I just look at the material once and then don't ever look at it again.
[00:28:07] Speaker B: And whatever sticks with you is like.
[00:28:08] Speaker A: Because we should know what it is. Because I think with brains like ours, we've been studying dance our whole life, so we can look at something for a second.
[00:28:15] Speaker B: With human brains like ours, we just have conversation about AI.
[00:28:21] Speaker A: And that's a question.
We can dive deeper into parody. There isn't a hard set thing like there is, which I wish there were for music. Like, you can use three notes, but they had to change but I do kind of think it's comparable to choreography. I feel like. Depends on how one e and a, two e and a. You want to get, but then you want to change it for the rest. It kind of feels right. It kind of feels like two counts can be the same of the eight. But I think. Think about it as like a jigsaw puzzle. Like, the pieces are there, but they're not organized. Do you know what I mean?
And then as far as replicating move for move, I've had two things happen. Speaking of weird Al, actually, I choreographed for comedy bang, bang. And he was on it. And they wanted me to teach an ex machina dance. Oh, this is so weird. Full circle, story of my life. Nothing's planned, but it all comes together. And so I was like, cool. And I just assumed it was. Looks like, feels like, says something else. And we were on set, I was teaching him, and Scott was like, where's the move that does like this? I go, oh, well, I can't actually do the.
Exactly as choreographed. And he was like, oh, that's the whole bit. I was like, well, I can't do that. Sorry. And then he was like, oh, this will be fine. But I did do for better things, I guess. The end of season one, they wanted to recreate with the little daughter who was, like, six, the grandmother and the teenage daughter and the mom, Pamela, and wanted to do, like, a Christine and the queen's music video of Tilted. And they got the rights from the production company and. Sorry, the artist, the label and the choreographer, too. I was like, well, are you sure? Because normally choreographers don't get credit or pay for it. And she was like, let me double check. And because they're french, she was able to pay and credit the choreographer. And I said, make sure it's adapted by me and an original credit for them.
And I'm blanking right now on their name.
[00:30:14] Speaker B: Marion.
[00:30:15] Speaker A: Yes.
Thank you.
[00:30:18] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:30:18] Speaker A: She's fantastic.
[00:30:20] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah.
[00:30:21] Speaker A: And so they paid and credited the original choreographer, which is, to me, how it always should be done. Producers just don't really know it's an option. And they don't know that when you buy the rights, you're not actually buying the ip of the choreography. Right.
[00:30:33] Speaker B: It's not. Not. We're not paying for the existing thing. I think a lot of times we don't know to ask or we're not empowered to ask because there's not much precedent for this.
[00:30:44] Speaker A: And then on Dancing with the Stars, they actually did it with the guild's help. But Justin Lombardi, who's a creative director, they did a music video night and they paid and credited all the original choreographers from these iconic music videos so that the pros can use them at their discretion of what makes sense. So that was really awesome.
[00:31:05] Speaker B: Is that a conversation that Julie would need to have or choreo team would need to have directly with.
[00:31:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
I mean, the creative director in this know said to the BBC, there's a guild and we need to make sure that we're on the right side of all of this.
[00:31:22] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:31:23] Speaker A: And so it is a money question and it is logistics, and it's so hard to even get credit for choreographers that are just doing the work themselves. So to credit anyone else is obviously an issue. Depending on the network. Some networks are easier, but I love.
[00:31:36] Speaker B: Making the relationship of music and dance are probably really easy. But if you're working with actor types, you would make that similar to whoever wrote the script. Like, you can't just borrow scenes. I can't put that scene that was already in the marriage story in my movie that's also about a divorce.
[00:32:02] Speaker A: Unless you pay for it.
[00:32:04] Speaker B: Unless you pay for it. But with music, I think it's a more widely known concept that you can't just cover any song and sell it.
[00:32:14] Speaker A: Another way to think about it that might be more palatable for, I guess, producers and their team is if they think of it more as an honorarium versus, like a credit. So if you could pay the original choreographer an honorarium, which just means, like a contribution. We recognize your work. We see your work. We're honoring your work versus something that has to be super legal. You know what I mean? I think sometimes people just don't want to do more paperwork, to be honest. Yeah. Right.
And then in the past, there have been wins of a choreographer choreographing a tour for an artist and getting paid a royalty every time they do their work, which is amazing. And if it is a win, then it becomes a new standard. So fight for what you think is right and maybe try to think of it as like, it's not a big deal. It's just what we're doing now. Because we have a guild and it's an honorarium and this is what we're doing now.
Yes. Maybe report back.
[00:33:09] Speaker B: That's our president speaking, my friend.
Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you both walking away from that.
If it ends up going this way, how do we do this?
[00:33:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, good on you for thinking about it.
[00:33:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And thank you for calling. And thank you for your divine timing.
[00:33:34] Speaker A: This is progress in person, progress in the making with words that.
[00:33:41] Speaker B: Jillian Myers.
[00:33:43] Speaker A: Jillian, I'm going to see you on Tuesday. Yeah.
I'm so excited for Raggle.
[00:33:47] Speaker B: Raggle, raggle. Tuesday. Yeah. Raggle taggle. Wait, raggle taggle. Wednesday.
[00:33:52] Speaker A: Tuesday.
[00:33:54] Speaker B: Tuesday. Well, you said it was Wednesday. Wills performance.
[00:33:58] Speaker A: 09:00 p.m. We'll talk about later. Yep. Okay.
[00:34:05] Speaker B: Got it. Okay, interesting.
[00:34:13] Speaker A: Bye bye.
I could have messed up.
[00:34:19] Speaker B: That might be it.
[00:34:19] Speaker A: I went to go meet somebody, and I was like, I'm at the mall in Culver City. And she was like, what good do you mean, Century City? I was, uh huh, sure do.
[00:34:30] Speaker B: Oops.
[00:34:30] Speaker A: And I was like, I went to Century City. She said, culver City.
And then last night, I went to.
[00:34:36] Speaker B: The clear talent group. They had their industry audition night, and it was awesome.
There was some really great dancers. I went to the wrong mirror and Kay, because when I asked Misha, I was like, which one is that? And she said, the Burbank one. And I thought, the one that's off Burbank Boulevard.
[00:34:56] Speaker A: Going to the wrong.
[00:34:58] Speaker B: Sorry.
Did you hit play there? I did, yeah.
[00:35:02] Speaker A: No, I just wanted to shave and a haircut. Two bits. Is that what it is? Yeah. Also, you're not leading into the mic. And I find myself that I am.
[00:35:11] Speaker B: I bring it.
[00:35:13] Speaker A: You've done this.
[00:35:14] Speaker B: Now I'm fucking it up.
[00:35:15] Speaker A: You're doing great. We're all doing great. Everybody's doing great. Russ rolls is doing great. Julie's doing great. You guys are doing great. Great. You're listening. Are doing great.
[00:35:24] Speaker B: Great job.
Just president on Jillian Myers just now, which seems like it was a plant. Like, truly, if I went and was at a live taping of a podcast and that phone call happened, I'd be like, they totally scripted that.
[00:35:37] Speaker A: Also, you going, you know how to handle this? I go, no, I don't. And I was like, oh, yeah, actually, I do.
[00:35:42] Speaker B: I reminded you because I'm your vice president and that's what I do. This works. Oh, I love it. Okay, a couple of things I want to talk about.
I have two questions.
[00:35:54] Speaker A: Wait, I got to talk about them before you. Before interrupt you. I had such physical reactions to when you said you went to the studio, but not their other studio. Remember when we used to audition for everything in person? Whenever I come to the valley, I'm like, oh, right. I stood in line in that alleyway. I stood in line in that alleyway. I drove to that one thinking it was that one.
Oops.
And then you're like, you can't dance on the floor and it's going to be slippery. And you're looking like a hooker at 10:00 a.m. Because they said body conscious.
[00:36:24] Speaker B: You have to actually bring a cover up because that particular alley is not.
[00:36:28] Speaker A: Where you want to be looking like a hooker. And whether it's 10:00 a.m. Or not, slippy, sloppy. You do it once and then you're like, well, good thing I wasted 5 hours of my life doing that. And people complain about self tapes, but I'm here to remind you, you can choose the one you want to give to them. You can audition the floor outfit six times.
[00:36:45] Speaker B: You can lick your shoes closet.
[00:36:47] Speaker A: You can lick the floor if you want to. No one will judge you. Yeah, you can change a million times. You can redo your makeup after you have been learning the choreography any time of day. You could change your shirt.
[00:36:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I love self tapes. I really do love self tapes. Here's a great question that was not one of the original two I was going to ask you. I am so curious if you have self tape pet peeves as you're watching 1000 submissions for the same project, do you see somebody and you're like, oh, man, I really wish you hadn't done that. Or this was different.
[00:37:17] Speaker A: Yes. I think we talked about this the other night. I don't remember.
It's when I know someone's an amazing dancer, but they dance down because it says comedy. So I get that all the time. I'll see these pro dancers and I've go to their instagram and see pro mean. They've been on tours, they've danced with the biggest artists. I've seen them kill it. And then it's almost like they're not trying because it's a comedy and I need them to dance to the top. I need them to dance as if it's cool.
[00:37:46] Speaker B: Yes. Professional level.
[00:37:49] Speaker A: But it's like, do you know what I mean?
I don't know. They're trying to be funny or comment on the work or doing like a step. Oh, okay. Here's another thing.
[00:38:00] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:38:00] Speaker A: Before, if you're going to freestyle, just because I might have a clap or a snap or something like step touchy, don't do that. Before I'm going to see you do it when you're doing it right.
[00:38:13] Speaker B: So if in the choreography there's like a little simple step that can be repeated and is fun, don't use that simple repeatable as filler in your freestyle because we are going to see you do it in the combo. Show us something we haven't right or show us something we won't see.
[00:38:30] Speaker A: Right, exactly. Show us something we won't see. So if you're like, this isn't my vibe. This isn't my vibe at all. I'm more like, turn kick. Do turn kick. And then end a thing, maybe, and then end with something that's more in the world of what the style is.
[00:38:44] Speaker B: Oh, my God. I wish turn kick was my thing.
[00:38:47] Speaker A: I was. As a talgra, I'm like, I'll give you a kick in a bevel.
[00:38:50] Speaker B: Let me tell you the thing. I had a self tape recently that asked for you to slate, then walk away from camera in one take and demonstrate a turning sequence.
And I did paddle turn. Many takes. So many takes.
[00:39:07] Speaker A: Good for you.
[00:39:07] Speaker B: And eventually, well, yeah, I was like.
[00:39:09] Speaker A: I would have been like, this isn't my kick.
[00:39:10] Speaker B: I wonder how many takes it'll get for me to have a solid triple. And then I stopped trying to find it, and I did. Step single inside, step single outside, step single inside. Ronda jam, little Tonda flesh. And then another, like, double drag turn. The end. Great.
[00:39:24] Speaker A: So you gave him a turning sequence?
[00:39:25] Speaker B: I did, but I can't tell you the number of times I slated that day. And was my favorite slate the same as the successful turn sequence, right? Probably not right. Slates are. I get really critical.
[00:39:36] Speaker A: And then another thing that's not a pet peeve, but it's like in tv land and film land, it's like you have to hire someone that's going to understand where to go. Unfortunately, not that one. The other one. And then understanding a call sheet, and then I know you know where to go. But you said you were so early that you were still on time.
Someone that's self sufficient, right. Can follow instructions on their own. So Megan Kong, who's like, assisted me on a bunch of jobs and is awesome and smart dancer and does a million things, was like, her pet peeve is when people don't follow instructions. She's like, out, next. And I'm like, I don't know, but we don't have their type. And they're really good. Are you kidding? They didn't even. And I was like, you said horizontal, it's vertical. I'm like, well, I get it. But then it does make sense. I mean, you have to be extremely talented to get past the not following the rules category.
[00:40:27] Speaker B: Yes. To be an exceptional.
[00:40:28] Speaker A: Extremely singular.
[00:40:29] Speaker B: To be exceptional. Okay, thank you for that. You're welcome, listener viewer. Okay, I want to ask, because I think last time we did a lot of complimenting each other.
[00:40:41] Speaker A: Of course.
[00:40:41] Speaker B: Listen to is wonderful, as if we're not now perfect.
And I think you're really good about a lot of things.
[00:40:47] Speaker A: Oh, God.
[00:40:48] Speaker B: I want to say straight out loud, one of my favorite gigs of this past year was dancing for you on. That's my jam. Yeah. And watching.
[00:40:57] Speaker A: And assisting.
[00:40:58] Speaker B: And assisting. Thank you. That's cat being my advice. Thank you.
Watching you talk with writers was awesome. I was like, this is a catburn strength. Everyone watch. Look. This is how you talk to a writer. Without stepping on toes, without trying to do their job. You made smart judgment calls. You made polite offerings. I really liked the way that you collaborated with the writers on that show, which was an important thing because we're trying to find the funny still. And that really was a collaboration, which doesn't always happen. I think with scripted, you have to read what the scene is about and then make the dance that fits it.
[00:41:39] Speaker A: Yeah, well, this was live, so variety.
[00:41:41] Speaker B: But yeah, with the script. Wait, say that again.
[00:41:45] Speaker A: This wasn't technically scripted because it was variety. It's a variety show.
[00:41:48] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:41:48] Speaker A: It's a live game show, but it has.
[00:41:50] Speaker B: On a scripted show, you would treat dance.
[00:41:52] Speaker A: I see what you're saying.
[00:41:53] Speaker B: It would say in the script, like, they dance about blah, blah, and then you make a dance like that. But this was different. It was a variety.
[00:42:01] Speaker A: We were finding a game in a game show, creating a game out of the dance.
[00:42:05] Speaker B: Oh, my God. And this is going to come back in just a second. But loved how you did that.
[00:42:09] Speaker A: I don't even know what I did, but I believe you.
[00:42:11] Speaker B: I would have to. Hidden body camera on set is what I'm going to do next.
[00:42:16] Speaker A: I love that charm does. On her instagram, she does. What was your first impression of me? Or what is the thing I say? I don't know if I can handle that.
I think I would have to wait until the job was over.
[00:42:26] Speaker B: Safe. Safe. That's fine. Okay. So that's the preface. The question is 25 minutes later, what is still hard for you on the job? Is there anything that you're still, like, good at? This. I haven't done this in a while, or. I'm not fully confident doing this thing.
[00:42:44] Speaker A: I mean, being very honest, I think it's hard for me to give myself the space to be as great as I want to be.
I make things harder for myself, not for the team or the project. But there's a world of which I could start working on it way earlier than I do.
[00:43:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:43:02] Speaker A: But the last second procrastination. And I'm like, well, I'm only getting paid for one prep day, so I'm only going to do one prep day.
[00:43:08] Speaker B: Love that.
[00:43:08] Speaker A: That's just me personally, because they didn't pay for that other product.
[00:43:11] Speaker B: Right.
[00:43:11] Speaker A: And we shouldn't be giving them.
[00:43:12] Speaker B: What makes it harder for you? The procrastination part, I think it's more.
[00:43:17] Speaker A: Of, like, a life thing.
[00:43:20] Speaker B: This is an attack on my own personal character.
[00:43:24] Speaker A: It's like the meal prep, the making sure the smoothies in your downtime, setting yourself up for success, and not just.
[00:43:31] Speaker B: Like, your life sleeping gig.
[00:43:33] Speaker A: Right.
The roller coaster on the down is when you just get off of a big job and you've been out of town for two weeks or whatever, it's hard to come back into a routine or schedule that's healthy for me so that when the other gig starts again, I don't feel like I'm shot out of a cannon. Yeah, but it is hard. I don't know really what that prep is or how to do it because it really is zero to 100. And we talked about the this. I'm like, I don't know. I'm going to say. I'm sure I'll figure out what to say before I get there. So it's like my negative self talk, I guess. I would say I wish was different.
[00:44:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I hear that.
[00:44:06] Speaker A: Like, self deprecating. Yes. Humility. Yes. All great qualities.
[00:44:09] Speaker B: Self sabotage.
[00:44:11] Speaker A: Right?
[00:44:11] Speaker B: We can retire that.
[00:44:12] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's sabotage per se.
[00:44:15] Speaker B: Right. But I jumped to an extreme because.
[00:44:18] Speaker A: Then the job would go poorly. I still manage to.
I don't know. I just think the negative self talk I have around things is hard. Well, I actually use it. Well, sorry, a million things. But the impostor syndrome is a thing that we recognize, and I can at least recognize negative self talk as, like, I don't know what I'm doing. Oh, this is part of my process. I see you.
[00:44:41] Speaker B: I hear you myself. This is.
[00:44:43] Speaker A: It'll be fine. Just trust that once you get into the room, once you start, it'll be fine. But the panic of just listening to the song over and over again, and for me, once I start moving, I'm fine. Once we set a time and we're in the studio and you and I are vibing, I was like, oh, it's done in an hour. In it, done quick. Got it. But beforehand, the self talk, recognizing the negative voice, not being threatened by the negative voice and not letting it crumble me. I wish just wasn't there. I hear that, but it is there, but at least I recognize it as part of my process and not like a crumbling of identity.
[00:45:16] Speaker B: Thank you for that.
That's huge. That gives it radio space as being there. You're not trying to ignore this part of yourself and lie to yourself and say it doesn't exist. You're saying it's part of your process. And your process is this many steps. So if you're at this step, you're like, okay, that's where I am right now. That means next is this and next is this. And that must work because you keep getting the job done and winning awards.
[00:45:41] Speaker A: And shit and being nice. I think it's helpful to understand what other people are going through because I know if I'm nervous, they must be nervous. A lot of times when you show up for a job for me, you have no idea what you're going to be doing, what the content is, unless it's like, do I have your permission that we're going to be doing this unless it's very clear that you have to say yes before you come. Because comedy, you never know what you're going to get. But as a dancer, you don't know what you're doing. And that is terrifying. Whether it be a class or a job or an audition, you're like, I know I'm saying yes, and I trust this person, that they'll take care of me. Or sometimes you don't have trust than that person and you have to gear yourself up to run a kind of marathon of athleticism and endurance. But sometimes that happens with me. Sometimes it is like turn, turn. I mean, you've done jobs where it's like you were technical with me and then jobs where it's like chill.
[00:46:28] Speaker B: And then I've been tapping and then.
[00:46:29] Speaker A: I was popping, tapping in jazz shoes.
[00:46:34] Speaker B: Oh, my God, such delightful little leather shoes on the.
[00:46:39] Speaker A: That is a fun one, though. If anyone looks it up, it's called antidepressants or so not a big deal.
[00:46:44] Speaker B: We talk about it a lot on our previous interview. We talk about that.
[00:46:46] Speaker A: We did a lot.
[00:46:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:47] Speaker A: Oh, God, that's how old that job was.
[00:46:49] Speaker B: It was, yeah. But the conversation is great. We talk a lot about the importance of being able to lip sync.
[00:46:56] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:46:57] Speaker B: And how we learn. Is it?
[00:47:00] Speaker A: Yes. Dancers get paid more if they're lip syncing.
[00:47:01] Speaker B: I didn't know that.
Acted surprised you didn't know that.
I did know that. What was he going to say, the.
[00:47:09] Speaker A: Importance of lip syncing.
[00:47:10] Speaker B: Importance of lip syncing. And we talked about how, on that gig, they changed the lyrics on the day.
[00:47:15] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:47:15] Speaker B: And they're complicated lyrics, like limbozine or like some fooxidin.
[00:47:24] Speaker A: I forget. But if we can pause, I would.
[00:47:29] Speaker B: Probably remember the lyrics.
[00:47:33] Speaker A: Some cry that in the past we did a medicating one. Cool. Witch trials and the crusades sounded like so much fun. Antidepressants are so common that taking them is all we have in common.
That was the end.
[00:47:43] Speaker B: Was that's the end?
[00:47:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And then we walked away. That taking them. We have nothing else. It's like there was something else. Like the words were changing the rhythm.
[00:47:50] Speaker B: Change one of the pills names?
[00:47:52] Speaker A: No.
[00:47:52] Speaker B: Changed. It wasn't a tough one. But the recording that we were lip syncing to didn't change.
[00:47:59] Speaker A: Right.
[00:48:00] Speaker B: So we're hearing something different than what we're saying, and we're getting notes about the entrance and the exit and change the arm, lower the arm, do a different jump while saying the different thing. Y'all. It's an important skill to have, and I think it gets the brush off too often. I've stopped saying, when I judge on convention, I stop telling people not to lip sync. I do say I've noticed you lip syncing, and that might be an indication that your mind is elsewhere. But I encourage you, actually use that as a skill and see if you can lip sync well.
[00:48:30] Speaker A: I mean, definitely if it's a musical theater one. But what's the backup dancer role? Isn't it like a faux paw to lip sync, or is it.
[00:48:35] Speaker B: I can't tell. Okay.
[00:48:37] Speaker A: But people still do sometimes?
[00:48:38] Speaker B: Yeah, if they're in it and if they think they're the star, which is also. That's the real faux paw of it. If you're lip syncing, you're performing too much. You're being, like, a few words here.
[00:48:48] Speaker A: And there that might feel like an ah or an ooh pitch.
[00:48:52] Speaker B: An ad lib. I think that's socially acceptable.
[00:48:54] Speaker A: Interesting. Okay, interesting.
[00:48:56] Speaker B: Okay. So that was question number one is the thing that's still hard for you. Thank you for this insight to the self talk.
[00:49:02] Speaker A: I said that out loud.
[00:49:04] Speaker B: Well, thank you for saying that, because it underlines my point about impostor syndrome, which is there is no level of achievement where you will no longer feel that you have two Emmys.
[00:49:13] Speaker A: Well, I also just care. It just means I care.
[00:49:15] Speaker B: It means you care.
[00:49:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:16] Speaker B: Okay, next question. I want to know about something that you're really proud of. We talked about something that's still hard for you. Yeah. What is a project or a moment or a quality that you're.
[00:49:26] Speaker A: I think what you just said is what I'm really proud of. I'm proud of, like, I mean, yes, awards are awards and accolades are, they come and go. And for me, I'm like, that means I get to work. That means I get to keep working and hopefully someone will keep hiring me or it's like, easier for my friends to pitch me because they're like, she has and it somehow makes me cooler or whatever.
I very much am honored that my peers respect my work because that's a peer group vote with a television academy.
[00:49:54] Speaker B: That's cool.
[00:49:54] Speaker A: And that means the world because they know what they're talking about.
[00:49:57] Speaker B: Right.
[00:49:58] Speaker A: And as we know, you're, like, to be in favor of other choreographers is hard. We're judgy.
[00:50:03] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:50:05] Speaker A: And I think without knowing or making an effort to do anything different, I think I naturally have created a safe space because I really respect dancers. And when I get to hire you, I geek out because you're one of my favorite dancers of all time. Why wouldn't I want you to be comfortable, you being you? Do you know what I mean? I feel lucky that dancers work with me at all or that this actor is working with me. I want to make sure that they feel safe because it's only better for their performance. So why would I be an asshole? But I also think it's like, I don't know, for me. And then I can help kind of get them to where they need to be through trust and collaboration versus, like an iron fist. But I don't know. Choreographers do get a bad rap for being mean or harsh or whatever. And I know some things are, of course, unacceptable, but it's also comparable. Like, people, when people are like, you're so nice, I'm like, well, you know how you have a personal trainer and they're either like, again, more. They're really drill scary, the drill sergeant, or like, you've got this and they're like positive and friendly. So I think choreographers are the same. We're like one or the other. It's like rare to find an apathetic choreographer. I mean, maybe there exists, but anyways. But I am proud that I get to work in both the worlds I love, which is comedy and dance. And there's been like a marriage of those two. And I'm obviously not, by happenstance, love being on set when we're giggling and dancing, it's the best and I am proud to be a good person while doing the job and not letting ego or some kind of quest for fame make me do things that I'm not proud of.
[00:51:42] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:51:43] Speaker A: I'm probably nicer to everyone else than I am to myself, if that makes sense.
And I'm proud of that, though, still. I mean, very southern catholic girl to say that out loud, but that was my upbringing.
[00:51:53] Speaker B: That was such a good read, Catherine.
[00:51:55] Speaker A: Well.
[00:51:59] Speaker B: Okay, we're back.
We're back. Cat burns, part two. Cat burns three.
[00:52:07] Speaker A: Wait, what was my. What was. What was I going to say? My calling card was.
[00:52:12] Speaker B: Oh.
[00:52:12] Speaker A: And I said it in a deep voice we all forgot already. Peanut brain.
[00:52:16] Speaker B: Pull it back. Go, vesh. Okay, are you ready for. No, I'm pointing at you really intensely. I'm sorry.
[00:52:23] Speaker A: Get your mustache finger round.
[00:52:26] Speaker B: Here it comes.
[00:52:27] Speaker A: Gun, gun, gun.
[00:52:28] Speaker B: This is a rapid fire section of the podcast we call wrist. Roll with it. Just roll with it. Answer from the guts or from the wrists. Okay, last song that you belted out.
[00:52:38] Speaker A: I apologize in advance.
[00:52:39] Speaker B: Not how it works.
[00:52:40] Speaker A: I apologize in advance.
[00:52:41] Speaker B: Rapid.
[00:52:41] Speaker A: I'm going to say something first.
I'm going to say it.
[00:52:45] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:52:46] Speaker A: I'm going to say it really loudly, so don't judge me for my answers. I mean loudly, but by loudly, I mean quickly.
[00:52:50] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:52:52] Speaker A: This is a judgment free zone.
[00:52:54] Speaker B: Yes. All these make me feel uncomfortable.
[00:52:59] Speaker A: No, I'm fine. That was my pep talk.
[00:53:02] Speaker B: Well, I'm going to start.
[00:53:04] Speaker A: No. Okay, I'm ready. No. What's the last out loud jesse ware wildest moments?
[00:53:09] Speaker B: Nice. Okay, we already mentioned the show.
What's the next song you're going to belt out loud?
[00:53:18] Speaker A: We could be.
What? Do it now. Come on.
I was just kind of seeing how you asked the question. I didn't mean to distract you.
[00:53:30] Speaker B: Rouge my knees and roll my stockings down. Cute stockings, by the way. Stockings, stockings, stockings. We're moving on. We already talked about. That's my jam. Which was a section on Jimmy Fallon's show.
[00:53:47] Speaker A: That's my jam, is the show where ours was.
[00:53:50] Speaker B: What was it called? Backup.
Back that. Oh, shit, shit, shit.
[00:53:53] Speaker A: Back that up. No.
[00:53:56] Speaker B: Oh, no.
[00:53:57] Speaker A: It was a dance bit. It was called whose dance is it anyway? It's called back in dancers. It's called dance that up. Back that. No, it's called keep up with the dance shit.
[00:54:10] Speaker B: Well, that's what the rules of the game were with the contestants on that show. Celebrity contestants got dropped into our existing backup dancer dance, and they had to follow along. It's like, basically your worst nightmare of forgetting the moves on stage because you never learned the moves and there were props. It was such a setup. It was so much fun. My question is, who is the artist that you would love to dance back up for?
[00:54:33] Speaker A: Jesse Ware, because her shows are great.
[00:54:37] Speaker B: One person, living or dead, that you would love to collaborate?
[00:54:41] Speaker A: Mel Brooks.
Duh. Duh.
[00:54:45] Speaker B: Still living.
[00:54:45] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:54:45] Speaker B: Okay. Sorry. I'm sorry. Genius. I really want that to happen for you. Campaigning now. New campaign, not for president of choreographers Guild, but for working with Melbrook.
[00:54:54] Speaker A: Well, Susan Strowman, she's done a pretty good job with.
[00:54:56] Speaker B: Oh, well, you can collaborate.
Okay. It's great. Rapid fire.
[00:55:02] Speaker A: Dean.
[00:55:02] Speaker B: Default move. What's your default move? You're at a party roll. What is a move that you would delete? Just get rid of it forever. Not necessarily for you, but like for all.
[00:55:12] Speaker A: I think it would be just passes.
Good luck trying to do dance.
[00:55:24] Speaker B: That kind of deletes a whole lot of it.
[00:55:25] Speaker A: Turns to be way more interesting, actually.
[00:55:27] Speaker B: I will say after judging a lot of convention dance people be avoiding the passe in general.
[00:55:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:31] Speaker B: I haven't seen like a develope through passe in a long time.
[00:55:35] Speaker A: Deleted.
[00:55:36] Speaker B: A show that you would inject dance into if you could, like show that.
[00:55:40] Speaker A: Live or movie or tv or what? Like a stage show.
CSI.
[00:55:46] Speaker B: Yes. Every episode should have at least like a murder dance.
[00:55:50] Speaker A: Like Inspector gadget choreography with flashing and cops in unison where they check out.
[00:55:57] Speaker B: The scene and there's always a section with lights flashing.
[00:56:01] Speaker A: There's like a strobe section, maybe the photograph, the, you know, it'd be really fun. I'd watch it then I would. And there's a lot of them. So we'd be rich.
CSA, Miami, CSI. Other places.
[00:56:16] Speaker B: I don't know.
[00:56:16] Speaker A: I think there's New York. There's a lot of cities. Okay, great.
[00:56:19] Speaker B: There's so many cities. Tell me about a woman you look up to.
[00:56:24] Speaker A: I was going to say you. I mean, I was like, literally, my brain just went, you. No, it's true, because, like, the way you. What I was saying about earlier about. I think the thing that I would want to teach if I could make people be better in their lives would be to structure your day regardless of what any external forces give you. And you are a master at structuring your day, like, down to the hour. I'm good at doing it when it's for other deadlines and other people's schedules. But I think the key to happiness is, like, fulfilling your day in a useful way that also carves out time for the pup. Time for productivity time for your friends, and it makes you show up for people in a great way, and you do what you say and you mean what you do, and that doesn't make sense, but you get what I'm saying. You mean what you do. Yeah, I guess that's true. You stand by what you do.
[00:57:16] Speaker B: I put it on the calendar.
[00:57:17] Speaker A: Exactly. And even if it's like, for example, when I had my pups and I was like, what if I turn off my life? I have two giant pups. You're like, I'll help. And I was like, come on. And then you're like, hey, checking in, do you need help? And I was like, yes, I do. Can you stop by and let them out day? You're like, got it on it.
[00:57:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:57:31] Speaker A: And so I really look up to you and I really admire the way that you're able to be productive in your own life. That's helpful for you and others.
[00:57:38] Speaker B: Thank you so much. It's true. The flip side of that coin, which I shouldn't say out loud, I should just take it and run, is that I do sometimes feel ball and chained to the calendar. Right. And also, there are several of you out there. If I told you I would do something and then it didn't go on the calendar, I 100% will not do it, even though I told you I would if it didn't go on the cat. That's the catchy part. I really do check in with it. And if it isn't on the calendar, it's probably not.
[00:58:07] Speaker A: Do you find you have space for happy accidents?
[00:58:11] Speaker B: Yeah, and I'm getting much better about that now. I'm also occasionally playing hooky. Like, I will look at the rest of the day today, and then I will look at the next two days and be like, I could probably do that. I'm going to. Not today.
Yeah, that happens sometimes. Yeah. Okay, back to our last wrist roll with it question.
[00:58:33] Speaker A: This is fantastic.
[00:58:34] Speaker B: You guys are so lucky. This is delicious. This one is serious. I should have warned you for this.
[00:58:39] Speaker A: I'm very serious.
[00:58:39] Speaker B: Am I going to cry? No. I might cry, though. I almost cried. That was a really sincere compliment you just gave. It is true.
Okay, last question is, what are the words that move you the most?
[00:58:52] Speaker A: Well, I was going to say something. I'm just going to say it because it's rapid fire. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. But that one's very hard with activism.
That's, like, where brain goes here and like, okay, what you have to know is, since I was little, I've been taught as a woman following the rules and being polite. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything. So then it means you suffocate your emotions and then you, like, all agree. If pent up anger, and that's not.
[00:59:13] Speaker B: Healthy, we have to rewire that shit.
[00:59:14] Speaker A: So that's rapid fire by answer, but not true.
[00:59:18] Speaker B: Nice.
Okay.
[00:59:21] Speaker A: But the caveat of that is, live by the golden rule. Do unto others as you would like to have done unto you. That sounds, Daxy, but I think it's.
[00:59:28] Speaker B: Like.
[00:59:31] Speaker A: Do unto me.
[00:59:37] Speaker B: Do unto you.
[00:59:38] Speaker A: I mean, that's what it is. Just sounds a little more fun than it's supposed to, I think.
[00:59:43] Speaker B: Cat Burns, you are so much fun. Thank you for being here.
[00:59:46] Speaker A: Thank you for being my podcast therapist.
[00:59:48] Speaker B: Go back, listen to episode one with Kat, episode number 16. Our first time on the podcast was so much fun. Also. This was fantastic. Thanks, Jilly, for calling in. Thank you guys for watching listening.
Subscribe, leave a review, leave a rating, hit the bell for notifications, and go out into the world. Keep it very funky. Thank you.
[01:00:09] Speaker A: It's not your outro music. I lost it.
Oh. I want to redo my introduction.
[01:00:23] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah.
[01:00:24] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Catherine Burns, former Martha May, former top hat dancer. I was once a tap dancing number one, also in a musical. I was a full size tap dancing penis as well.
Get into it.
[01:00:40] Speaker B: Don't say full.
[01:00:44] Speaker A: Sorry, I meant like human.
[01:00:45] Speaker B: Like, I made. What about like fun size?
[01:00:48] Speaker A: Like Halloween fun size.
My mom was in town visiting. I was like, I gotta make this thing. And so it was like a foam.
[01:00:55] Speaker B: You made it?
[01:00:56] Speaker A: Yeah, it was like a foam full size penis. It was one of the writers of Avenue Q. And the bit was that they were going to have sex in the airplane bathroom to make sure his penis worked. And so I was like, oh, it'd be so funny if then I came out from under their legs as like a human size. And so it was just my little face popping out of a penis costume that I made. And then I had confetti come out.
[01:01:20] Speaker B: Of course you did.
[01:01:21] Speaker A: And then while tap dancing. And then kicker on that is my friend who would like why we had.
[01:01:25] Speaker B: Dated for kicker on that.
[01:01:27] Speaker A: Well, my friend and I had dated for a hot second and I was like, massively crushing again. And he came and he's like a star. And I was like, he's going to so fall in love with me.
[01:01:38] Speaker B: It was like my little face just peer.
Oh, my life is so much better for knowing this.
[01:01:49] Speaker A: I need to find the footage I have.
[01:01:51] Speaker B: Please find the footage.
If when we find this footage we'll be charging for it. There will be a fee, but you can find it in the shop. Find it in the words we did.
[01:02:04] Speaker A: It at UCB so safe space.
[01:02:07] Speaker B: Thank you so much for that.
Hanging on to that forever.
This podcast was produced by me with the help of many big big love to our executive assistant and editor, Riley Higgins. Our communications manager is Ori Vajadares. Our music is by Max Winnie, logo and brand design by Brie REITs, thumbnails and marketing by Fiona Small. You can make your tax deductible donations to words that move me. Thanks to our fiscal sponsor, the dance resource center, and also many thanks to you. I'm so glad you're here. And if you're digging the pod, please share it. Leave a review and rating. And if you want to coach with me and the many marvelous members of the words that move me community, visit wordsthetmoveme.com. If you're simply curious to know more about me me in the work I do outside of this podcast, visit thedanawilson.com.
